Episode 64: Becoming a More Present Father with Baba of The Present Dads (Feature on Fathers Series No. 3)

Happy Belated Father's Day to all those who identify as Dads! We see you, doing the hard work of becoming a present, compassionate father and we think you are just amazing! Partners, if you're the one who listens to this podcast but you know a dad who is heeding this challenging call to grow up alongside their kids, please share this with them so we can let them know just how much we value them!! We really couldn't do this without you!

So, were you able to listen to the episode last week on What We Need to Know About Dads? If so, I would love to know your takeaways! Are there things that resonated with you? What realizations did you have as you listened? I hope that through the episode we will understand Dads better and if you are a Dad, I hope it helped you in some ways. Of course we know that there are so many different ways to be a dad, and Ryan shared his perspective that reflected his own experience, so if things are different for you, if there were things you disagreed with, I'd love to know about those things too! I've never been a dad, so I would love to hear from as many of you as I can. Your perspectives and experiences really matter to me, and I hope I'm doing them justice in this series!

To help you (Dads) even more, I'm so happy to be inviting a new colleague and friend, Babatunji Fagbongbe for the third episode of the Feature on Fathers Series. Baba is the founder of The Present Dads community. This community came about when he realized he did not have much time with his family while working in a corporate job. And so, he committed himself to find a balance between being a father and the provider of his family. The Present Dads' goal is to help fathers spend more time with their families while also doing what they love in their careers. Yes Dads, you too really can have it all, just like us moms! *wink wink* (Ok, that was a bit "tongue in cheek" but I had to poke a bit of fun at #thepatriarchy 😂 ... We moms hear this all the time, that we can "have it all" but really what we get is burnt out trying to be all things to all people. THAT is not what we are about here, so I hope this conversation will help you figure out how to nurture your family and yourself without getting burnt out - there is an important message for ALL caregivers in this episode!).

And so, in this episode, we will be having a good conversation on what present fatherhood means and how we can achieve that. Here is an overview of what we talked about:

• What does it mean to be present

• What can we do to improve the quality of time with our children

• Tips about balancing work and family life

If you want to be part of this community, follow The Present Dads Facebook Page and visit his website www.thepresentdads.com. Baba also welcomes any of you who want to reach out and ask for resources on how to be a present father. You can DM on his Instagram @babatunjif.

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TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello, everybody. This is Dr Laura Froyen and I'm here with another episode of The Balance Parent Podcast. I'm so happy to be inviting a new colleague and friend, Baba of The Present Dads, and we're going to have a really good conversation about what present fatherhood means and how we can achieve that. So Baba, thank you so much for being here with us today. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do? 

Baba: Thank you very much, Laura. Hello, everyone. My name is Baba Fagbongbe on the founder of The Present Dads. Present Dad's came out of my experience. I was working in corporate UK. Then I want myself out. I didn't have time for myself. I didn't have time for my family. And it gave me a health scare, which led me on the journey to looking for a solution, trying to find balance on as I came out on the other side of that, I realized the way not off other dads like myself who were working very hard for their family. But they were not making out time for the family they were working so hard for. So that was how I started Present Dad. And it's all about community, of that's coming together to support one another, to be there for one another and also know you're not alone and, although your dream is appreciated. 

Laura: Wow, what a powerful thing too. And I think you know something that you said there is that so often I think there's a lot of pressure that we don't talk about on Dad's. I think in motherhood we talk a lot about the pressures on moms, and that is true and valid. But those pressure on Dad's, too, particularly if Dad's heir, the sole provider, the sole means of income in the home. And how did you go about finding that balance for yourself, figuring out, like, How can I be successful in my career and also present in my family?

Baba: Thank you Laura. The first step for me was the awareness of the fact that things were out of balance. There was no harmony. Work was going great. I was hitting the goals that I wanted out of work and also financial goals. But then my son, who was very young then, the only way he knew to get my attention was he come and shut the led of my laptop, which broke my heart and every time he needed my attention. “I'm coming. I'll be right there. Just give me a minute.” And it wasn't only the effect of my son. That was the effect on my relationship where my wife wasn't getting enough attention because it was all about work and then I neglected myself. 

So they are weakening was when I went for about six months and I wasn't sleeping and I was living on maybe an hour or two or even three hours sleep a day and then just working, working, working, which in hindsight, I can laugh about it and go. That was really, really not very wise thing to do. But I think it was the moment where I got to the point where I wasn't sleeping. That was the point at which I knew something needed to change. So awareness was the very first thing for me. It came on me externally. I didn't sort of acknowledge it myself. It was the lack of sleep that brought it home for me. 

Laura: Oh, yeah, almost like your body forced you to start acknowledging it that it was time to take a look. You know, you said something there that I think a lot of us moms and dads are experiencing right now where we are with, you know, well, most of us are still working from home with our families. Our kids are home with us because we're still in the midst of this pandemic. And, you know, I think we all have these times where are the poles on our attention, whether it's our phone, whether it's work on our laptop and then our kids here and that just that poignant image of your son coming and shutting your laptop trying to get you to engage and like when I'm imagining that.

I'm imagining like these polls in your like in feelings on attention one there's like a little piece of like, I've just got to get this done, a little piece of guilt. He needs me and I can't be present for him or, if you know, it's like a moment of just scrolling on Instagram for a little bit, a little moment of break theirs. I know that I sometimes feel like can't I just have a moment to myself, You know, too. So there's all these polls, how we balance that and be present with our families.

Baba:  So that's a great question and one of the first thing they'll say about that is before I used to just write my to-do list and then the cards, which one I needed to prioritize. But letting from Steve are called the Seven Habits of The Highly Effective People. Since then that I need to schedule my priorities. So the things that are important to me added things that I need to schedule, not prioritizing my to-do list, which I think is a big massive change for most of us. 

Laura: Yeah, that's huge. 

Baba: That's a huge one, and I think that can go a long way. So Instagram, Facebook, and all of those things, the quick fixes we all know good need to spend less time there on more than normally. But I will be honest and said there was a time after have what very hard during the day when I'm trying to get some downtime. I just stay on the screen on my phone thinking I'm decompressing and I'm relaxing. I'm just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling on.

Then I feel guilty that I have not done some of the things that were important to me and then have no spent time with the family can be see how it looks like we're just chasing our tails book, turning that around them when I say shouldn't our priorities for me now there's a particular time I go from the home office to the children. I just sit in the playroom. Sometimes just watch them do whatever they want. Sometimes it's not for the drug. Wait, what they're doing, which is great. But what I found is when I've spent that time with them. If I do need to go back upstairs to work, I go back into my work with a level of self-destruction women. 

I have had some emotional deficits into the family. So as I step back into what I'm not even thinking, Oh, I need to be the family because I have been with them because their time was scheduled and even when they come in to say, admitting that I'm holding before I will Oh, I don't want them to enter abort family so people say work-life balance, but it's more of work, life, harmony work-life much.  My work affects my family. My family affected my work. How can I begin to bring both of them together? Which is where, if they come into a meeting room, I try for them not situated Because it's not the end of the world. I'm strangely almost everybody just laughed. Well, just recognize. It's the life we're living in. 

So I've taken a level of pressure away from myself. But I think by and large it's acknowledging family, affect, walk, walk, affect family, and sometimes obviously things that are not confidential at this course with my wife. What do you think of this? What do you think I shall do. So she's involved in my works, she even offers some suggestions that I might not have thought about. So it's bringing both lives together, unknown that they're not really separate. 

But I think what will really help is to, as I said, schedule our priority. So I'm going to spend, for example, 8 to 12 working at 12 noon. I'm going to go for a walk from 5 to 7 PM That's family time. I'll just live two hours between five and seven for whatever may come on and I will know, always finish everything every day, but especially for me. And I'll see, maybe foremost meant that consciousness of the scheduling time for the family. I think it's very important. 

Laura: Oh, my gosh. Okay, I feel like I could go in a million different directions, so I just want a highlight. A few things that you said First, we're going to talk about how to figure out your priorities so that you can schedule that I want to go there next. But I just want to pull out but that there's this element of, you know when you are feeling pulled in multiple directions. 

Consciously focusing in on one direction allows you to be more fully in the other direction. When you need to be so dropping into the present moment with your kids in their playroom, you feel like you've filled their cups. You kind of made that deposit into the family bank account of time spent on and You're able then to be more fully in your work without carrying the load of that guilt, right? 

Baba: That's correct. 

Laura: Yeah, and then there's this other piece too. around just it seems like kind of yeah, let's, let's go in, then I guess into the How do we figure out then? What are true priorities are so that we can adjust our schedules adjust the way we spend our time to reflect those priorities.

Baba: Great. So a simple way to get started on that journey is to ask why maybe like five or 10 times. So, Baba, why you working 80 hours a week? I'm working so hard because I want to provide for my family while you working so hard to provide for the family because I want them to be comfortable. Why are you working so hard for them to be? What do you want them to be comfortable? Because I like my kids to have, maybe things that I didn't have green-up. Why is that important to you? Because I really just want them to be comfortable. I want them to start off better than where I started from. Why's that important to you?

As I begin to peel the layers until the layers helped me to really get to work or on a general level, I'll sit by and large. The reason most people work hard, especially dads, is to provide for their families.  Family, and love for the family is the call of why they're doing it. Some people will even not buy anything for themselves. They will do it for the family. Everything is all about sometimes don't even buy anything for themselves. But they would buy for their wife, buy for the kids.

At the end of the day on people's deathbeds, nobody says, I wish I had walked more on. If anyone dies on the job, they will be replaced. They will move on, which highlights the fact that all forgive your best, do more than you paid for so that you can be paid for more than your pain and all of that. But he had in some organizations you just in number and if, with covert and everything, I think it's highlighted. The fact the family's the family is important. 

So we tell her we want to look at it. I think there is no denying the fact that family is important and when you took off, how become begin to prioritize our given example and just imagine with me for a moment that we have some big rocks on. Then we have some stones and then we have sand and then we have water.

So if I'm trying to put everything in, in pocket, if I start with the sand and I start with a stone on, then I tried to put the big rocks in that bucket. It might be difficult, however, if I start with the big rocks. I put those enforced and Then I put the stones around the big rock in the bucket and then I put sand. There will still be space for the sand because it will fill the little spaces in between and then, while it might look like it's full, there will still be pockets of the species where cool filling water and what I'm trying to pass across days, the big rocks, in my opinion, are family, your health, your relationship, your fate, whatever that may be on, then the stones on the rest of it. I, in my opinion, I will probably see other stones the next. 

And so if it's a case if I have just had a row with my wife, there's nowhere you can get on an email on right the best email. If I've not had enough sleep. There is no way I can be as productive as I will be and Maybe when we start looking at it from that perspective of the family health, faith relationships are very big rocks that need to go into the bucket first. And we can plan all the captains around it. It begins to help us get started on the journey of balance. I hope that was this for.

Laura: Oh, absolutely. You know, in my membership, my Balancing U membership, we have, ah, exercise that I take the members through, called the Balance Jar, where we do exactly that exercise we fill up, figure out what our big rocks are, and we fill up a jar. A glass jar with those, help us figure out what are our priorities. What are we putting in first? What? Every pouring into that maybe doesn't need to take us up a much room as it is you know like yes. Oh, that's beautiful. I love that exercise and something else that you've been highlighting here, which I don't know about if you know, this would help me. 

But I am a huge kind of research nerd on what you're saying about how the different spheres of our life the works fear the family's fear and how impacted they are. It's so true, and research shows that it's actually even Mohr true for Dad's that when dads are doing well in their work, their more able to be more present with their families and by doing what I knew when they're happy in their work, when they're satisfied with their work and they're not overwhelmed or stressed out, they're able to be more present with their families there. And they're happier in their family life, too. And so I don't know if this is kind of an intuitive sense that you have about how we're family influenced each other. But what you're saying is backed by decades of family systems research, too. 

Baba: That's great. And one of the people I was working with, he after a session he went to his stepson actually who they've not been so the relationship could be better. Let's put it that way. The 30 put his phone down. They think initially the son was kind of suspicious of words they say about constable strange and then they spend time. I think after a couple of times of gender, he said, You could see the confidence of the boy improving. When he went back to work, he had another level of energy that just came from. So sometimes we think by feeling the telescope as will be depleted. But actually, the reverse was the case because his own cop full-on had also experienced it in my own life as well work when I know we've spent quality time they've made me laugh for have made them laugh. We run after one another and then I come back. Even though Tab what refreshed experience they were able to go on with works of blood. It's been researched, but it's been my own gift experience. 

Laura: Yeah. Oh, and it's so beautiful. You know, I got teary-eyed when you were talking there. You know it is fulfilling to see that connection and that relationship lost them. And when we are feeling good about our relationships, we feel better about ourselves, and we're able to be more fully present in all of the areas that are important to us. So let's talk a little bit about presence like what do you mean by being present with your family with your kids. Let's talk about presents a little bit  

Baba: Absolutely being present. So for different people, it will mean different things of. So it will be practiced differently. What kids when they're young. And I think the executor said, time to love to a child he spelled time. When you so before I used to feel it's about obviously before it was not from no time to some time on two more times now on, I'm even at a level where sometimes I just sit in the playroom with no agenda on that when they pull me into these are full me.  And I think, by a large, it's the opposition off the front that being a father is a privilege.

First, we need to be grateful, cause that's what some people are longing for, desiring on the children as much as they can push our buttons. It's a real privilege and it's... Sometimes they, it's one of the if you could call it an accomplishment. It's probably the biggest accomplishment I have so far the privilege of being that haven't said that these children will not be there forever. It's interesting one guy was telling me. Well, he's now ready to have time for the children, but they're all grown they're teenagers and they don't have time for him anymore.

So do you want to really live without a greater called love? I showed up or do you want to make memories? So what does it really mean to be present? I think it's to really show the kids that your important to me, I value you. You are important. And I think for me the way to show them the importance is if they interrupt my meditation or something. Not for me to go out of the study or something about okay, that is in a meeting. Now would you mind if I conducted into meat or something? I'm just making them really feel important.

I think it's important at a very big physical level. It's just that. And does them in right in a bicycle, with your son jumping on the trampoline. Whatever it means. I know we can go out for badly. Lessons are streaming in on all of that now book just sometimes I just run after them. I just make them run after me just to I have some flashbacks of my dad when we used to do pick a boo on and it was years after he died. I first opened up to my wife about it to go.

You know, I just remember that might interest you do this to me and of all the things that was, um experienced that I cherished that is with me, that even though he's gone now I appreciated. So I will really love my children to be able to have memories I love to have memories with the children on. I think it's not just about myself and the children, but also affects the next generation. Because I believe my son is watching me. My eyes watching me on the kind of young man, he will likely be influenced by what I'm showing him now. And the expectation my daughter will have is likely going to be based on what I'm showing to hand also being present. I know have gone on a little bit that I think if I can sell me talk simply, I will say time with the family. 

Laura: Yeah. I mean, no, this is so beautiful. and I just want to pull out a few things to you that you know, if they come to you and we're doing something else putting down what you're doing making that eye contact, connecting with them, even if it means like, you know, like even if we aren't able to be fully present for a long time like they come in, you're on a call for work. You can take a second to just stop Look at them, say, convey that you'd like to be with them and they have to wait just a moment while you're finishing up your call like makes them able to wait when they feel that connection when they feel like Hey, you know, my dad really cares about me. They wanted to be spending time with me, and they are going to spend time with me and you build that trust to win. Then you actually follow up on it. Once the call is over, you get off and you actually go do the connecting time. 

But I love what you're saying at the time of this recording. We are finishing up this 30 days of play challenge that I do in my community every year on the first 20 days are dedicated only to watching your kids play. So when you say that just sitting down in their playroom and watching them play even if they don't invite you in is still connecting time, it's so important they look up. They see that you're watching that you don't have your phone on you that you are just enjoying their presence. It's a beautiful gift to kids.

Baba: That is so well said. I'm elected, thinking also affects them emotionally. It builds them off emotionally electric things, but also over. 

Laura: For sure, it makes them feel seen and heard and valued and important and really at the heart of it. That's what we all want as humans, right? Those were the very basic things that we get out of relationships is to feel seen and heard and valued. Our kids want that our wives on that our husbands one that you know we all want those things. And that's what presence can give to them.

Baba: Absolutely and it costs nothing.  Sometimes you just want your presence.

Laura:  Actually it costs nothing. So one thing that I do when I'm noticing in my family that, you know, maybe we're kind of a little grumpy with each other, or parents are kind of distracted or you know, that we just haven't had much presence with each other. The very first thing that my husband and I do is make an agreement backed for a set period of time that our phones or devices will all be in one specific drawer in our kitchen, where they go for a set period of time. And that's often the simplest intervention. To bring more presence into our family is to remove that very carefully designed distraction.

Because, of course, our phones and social media are designed to pull us in, you know, to distract us from what's important in life, like that's something that just a practical tip. That's the very first thing we do when we're noticing that kind of we are being pulled in multiple directions is to get devices just out of sight for a little while every day,.

Baba: And you know what's Laura? It works.

Laura: It works, and you know, we do it for the time period between, like when the kids get home from school and before dinner. But then my husband and I also do it mindfully after the kids go into bed for the first half-hour. So after the kids are tucked in, we don't have our phones out because we need that, too. You know, these, all of these relationships are important. Being a present parent is not just about being present with your kids. It's about if your parenting with a partner being present with them too.

Baba: Absolutely, absolutely, and way we wouldn't get into mobile. From what? I think they're a great blessing. They should not be abused acting. That's where that well, they know.

Laura:  Yeah. You know, here, in our community, we are all working towards parenting our kids with gentleness and with respect and with humanity, seeing them as the full humans that they are inherently worthy of kind and gentle treatment even as they're growing and learning. 

Yeah. Okay, so I have one more question for you. So we've talked about kind of just time, just giving them the gift of your time and your full presence. Is there anything else that parents could be doing to kind of improve the quality of time that they spend? Because I was just reading a new research study that came out that was about that. The time we spend isn't nearly as important as the quality of the time that we spend. And this is particularly in this research study that this was that trend was particularly strong for dads. That dads who had spent maybe even less time but more quality time with their kids have better relationships with their kids, and the kids have fewer behavioral problems. So can you highlight a little bit of what we can do to kind of improve the quality of the time we spend with our family with our kids? 

Baba: So we've just touched on it. I think the first thing is to be put down the gadgets because come in in the world. And the other thing is to find what each child loves. Maybe they love language and walk with them in that my daughter with you on that she loves walking on. Sometimes if you see us on the streets, you probably thinks he's walking me, dragging me, I know. Well, as I realized he loved it, where we do that almost only daily basis and he's happy Skin did as he said quality of time is important. So I'll say dropped. 

They got what's language of each child on speaking to them in that language on and I think another thing I will say is especially for people that have younger children given ourselves grace to prioritize the children, especially when they're younger. Unknowing that, yes, what will always be there for the next 20, 30 years, depending on people's it? For someone that just had a baby, which was a mistake, I made thinking I could do everything the way I used to do them have any that maybe was not sleeping was puts him.

Certainly not setting myself up for success, basically. So give yourself grace for the stage. If the babies they're struggling with, like maybe you need to sleep during the day, maybe you need to make some adjustments when they're told last. The needs become different, just appreciating the fact that you any different stage of life and it'll change and I'm about yet in another two years because you will wake up when they're teenagers and you might have all the money. I'm ready for them, but the financial be ready for you.

Laura:  Oh, that was just beautifully put. And you know, here in our community, we love to just heaping doses of grace and compassion on parents. And sorry. I love how you delivered that with so much grace, but a very important reminder. I'm not this, you know, the days may be along with the years or short. 

Baba: Yes, that is a good one. 

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Baba, I'm so glad that we connected. I'm so glad that you were willing to come and share the gift in the wisdom that you've learned in your own experience with us. It was just such a pleasure to have you with me today.

Baba: very much. It's been a pleasure coming on here, and I applaud what you're doing in your community as well. So thank you. On behalf of the Dad’s. 

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um, and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family, and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this.

Episode 63: What We Need to Know About Dads (Feature on Fathers Series No. 2)

How was the episode last week? If you are a dad, did it resonate with you? If you are parenting with a dad, what takeaways did you get to apply into your relationship? Let me know! I would love to hear your comments. And for this week, we will be listening to the second installment of the Feature on Fathers Series. Dads, just like Moms, are human beings with fears and uncertainty in life.

I know, right? So shocking! 😂

In this episode, I want you to know that you do not have to live in fear. We are here to support you and guide you every step of the way. And so to help us understand what Dads undergo and the fears that bind them, I have invited a new friend and colleague to talk about parenting as a Dad. His name is Ryan Roy. He is an accountability coach, a husband, and a father of two boys, ages nine and three. He is committed to being a better father and helps parents take action in making the changes they want in their lives.

Here is a summary of what we talked about:

• Overcoming parenting fear as a man

• Co-parenting and identifying our roles as a dad

• Different parenting styles

• Dads’ inner wounds

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Ryan is heavily involved with his community and has created The FBI Dads (Fathers Being Involved) Program. For fathers and those who identify as one who wants to be involved in this, visit his website www.fbidads.com and join his Facebook community, FBI Dads (Fathers Being Involved).

If you want to spend more time with your kids but you don't know how, get the "Dad's Daily 4". This is a free workbook for busy dads who have trouble finding extra time for their kiddos. DOWNLOAD IT HERE!

He is also on Instagram @fbidads and Twitter @FBI_Dads. So, go ahead and follow him!

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TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello everybody! This is Dr. Laura Froyen in and we're gonna be talking with my new friend and colleague, Ryan Roy all about parenting as a dad. So Ryan is an accountability coach and he helps parents take action in making the changes that they want in their lives. So Ryan, I'm so glad to be talking with you, you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do.

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, thank you for having me on the show. I'm very excited to be here today and hopefully share some nuggets with your audience and if one person walks away with a nugget and implements it, then this will have served its purpose. So a little bit about me, so a little bit about myself, I am a husband first, right? I'm a father of two amazing boys, both nine and three and they're my family is my world professionally. I have justified just do it coaching right? Where I help parents and people in general and taking action in their life. I think too many times people are sitting on the sidelines in their minds and I get them into movement so that they could achieve the things that they desire. And I am the author of the book, Be the dad, you wish you had and I run a dad's program called FBI Dad's which is Father's Being Involved.

Laura: Oh, I love it. And so we're in the space in the podcast where we are kind of focusing in on dad's and as we were talking before we started recording, you were talking a little bit about kind of how you got, started talking about parenting in your professional world and you said something that I just felt like we all could resonate with, that when you became a parent, you didn't really know a lot about parenting. 

You also mentioned that you kind of just have been going with your gut and you've been reading and figuring things out. And I think a lot of the parents that I know that I work with, and mostly it's mom's, they come to me and if they're partnered with a man, they want to get their partner involved in learning about parenting, but their partner doesn't really want to, or it doesn't think that they need to or should have to because they want to be able to trust their gut, they wanted to feel authentic, they want to feel, to feel natural. So can you tell us a little bit about your journey of becoming a parent figuring out, like, oh, there's some things, I don't know, what do I do to go about learning those things so that I can parent in a way that feels authentic, but it's also right for me and my for my kids.

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. So I'll give a little back story because my story is unique to me and I can only speak from my truth, but you know, I was abandoned by my own father at age five, so I had a huge fear in life of ever becoming a dad myself and made a conscious effort not to have children for a very long time because I didn't want to fail at that. I felt as though I didn't have a role model to look up to or even a bad role model, right? I didn't have anything, I was coming from this blank slate at a big fear of not necessarily being a bad dad because I'm a good person, right? 

I figured I would be good at that, but I didn't know what it looked like to have a healthy adult relationship as my mom was divorced twice. Obviously, my father had left and my, I think my fear was even if I brought a child into the world, you know, could it grow up in a healthy relationship? Because I hadn't seen that. That was another fear of mine until I met my wife. And I'll tell a little story about that. Because when we were falling in love, she asked me a question, she says, how do you feel about children and like any smart man knowing that my biggest fear is to have children is, I asked her the question back and I said, well, how do you feel about having children? And her response was she was told by the doctors at one point that she had less than a 5% chance of ever conceiving and having children. 

So internally Laura I think I did a fist bump, a backflip because I'm falling in love with this woman and she will never have the ability in my mind at the time to have me face my greatest fear. So not very long from there, I asked her to marry me, well, on our wedding night, you know, we had the same discussion, well, what are we gonna do about this kid thing? And I said, listen, let's just have fun, let's enjoy each other in my mind. There's a 0% chance, even though there was a 5% chance. 

Well, six weeks later we were pregnant. Yeah, and at that point, I realized, wow, about to face my greatest fear, but I'm doing with the person that I know is going to be an amazing mother. It's a partner I chose and although I was scared, I was excited, but I recognize that my book title is I needed to be the dad I wished I had. I couldn't define it and say I'm not going to be like my father because he was absent. I define it as I'm going to be fully present. So I did it with a lot of intentionality because of my hurt and pain from childhood, of not having that dad. 

Laura: Yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that story with us and I think it's at some level we all can resonate with that, that there are things that we experienced growing up that we want to protect our kids from. And then oftentimes we kind of just know what we don't want to do, right? And we don't know, Okay, so what does the opposite of that actually look like? Because we've never experienced it.

And I think this is one of the things that can be so hard is because humans like the familiar, they like what's comfortable and when we start doing something different, like parenting differently than how we were parented ourselves, it can feel awkward, it can feel uncomfortable. And we misread that sometimes to say that that's not natural for us. You know, it's not authentic for us, but really what I think, and I don't know if you feel the same, but really that just means that we're learning something new, we're stretching were growing and growing can be quite uncomfortable sometimes. Do you agree?

Ryan: Absolutely. And I think men in general, you know, society has told us as men that it's a mom's role to parent, right? It's our job to provide. So I think we automatically go to default mode because your audience is predominantly women. I'm just going to give you an insight into the mind of a man what a man finds out. He's about to become a father for the first time. First of all, we don't know the sex, right? We just know that you're pregnant. 

So the first thing, what do you think a man pictures and you may know this, but a man pictures throwing a ball with his five-year-old son, Right? That's his first vision. Like, oh my gosh, I'm going to play in the back or if you know, he's an engineer, maybe he's building something. But whatever his passion is, it's I'm doing that with my son at five years old. We don't picture an infant, it doesn't become real for us. 

So when we think of a baby, we're not thinking about, oh, I get to cuddle with it and look into its eyes and nurture it. Like maybe a mom may think of these things, we automatically are going to that five-year-old. So when this child comes into the world, we don't know what to do for the first five years because we haven't envisioned it.

Laura: And I think oftentimes, you know, the generation of parents that we are in, are some of the first to be so active to have such a shared, mutual role in raising very young children. Most of us did not grow up in homes where we saw men doing a lot of the caretaking of young kids. And so I do think that there's a little piece of like, there's growing pains in this as because you don't you only know what, you know, and most of us learn through modeling and if we didn't see it, then we don't know how to do it. 

And if we didn't see it, we don't know that that's really an expectation of us. And so there's part of this, it has to be a conversation between the two people who are having the child of what is our involvement, what is our role, What are what, how can we mutually define what we're going to be doing and co-create a sense of who's responsible for what and what roles are we going to be taking on? 

Ryan: I think so, and I think for me anyway, and I can only speak to myself because the audience probably say, well where I find one like him because I've heard that another podcast and I'm like, listen, there has to be an internal desire to want to be better. But then there has to be guidance and acceptance that as men, this is an uncomfortable territory. I think you know, to change a diaper sounds like a very simple thing. But to a man, one of my best friends refuses to change diapers no matter what I tell him how important it is to bond with the child and show unconditional love, right? It's one of the chapters in my book that has just changed diapers Dads, why?

Because you're going to connect to that child and that child knows there's unconditional love because if at three years old, maybe the kids still in diapers and dad's never changed a diaper, he knows that there is conditional or she knows that there's conditional love because dad will do a lot of things for me. It won't comfort me when I'm soiled. What kind of message does that send to our children? Right, Dad has a role of mom has a role. And I think in today's day and age, especially with women coming into the workplace at the levels that you are, Why can't dad step into the parenting role and why can't we just co-create this habitat for these children to feel unconditionally loved by both parents?

Laura: I so agree. And I mean, I think that these are really important conversations to have two between parents as you're becoming parents, you know, an ongoing And you touched on something that I want to circle back to because a few people in my community asked about this about you said it's a kind of a sensitive thing that it can be kind of uncomfortable to not know what to do. 

And I think that that discomfort can make people defensive at times. And so a few people in my community were wanting to know a little bit about differences in parenting style or differences in approaches and how to talk about that with their partner in a way that doesn't get the hackles up, doesn't get defensiveness coming in. And do you have any insight on that and why we might get defensive when we are trying to discuss the difference in parenting? 

Ryan: So I think what you do for a living and what I do for a living allows us to ask a lot of questions, right? Because then we get the information out of people and I think in a traditional relationship people don't necessarily have those skills, so they tend to tell each other what to do or you should be doing this. Well no, you should be doing this, that's your job and I do this. And I'm just going to come from the male perspective, “Well I provide. Can't you just change the diapers and clean the house? I mean really guys” No, you know, but that's real for him because he's scared about, you know, not changing it right? 

And being criticized for not being able to change a diaper in 15 seconds, right? Because he's never done it and he never wanted to do it. And then it's from a man's perspective and I'll just speak to my own household, right? She has a certain way of doing things and when I do things oftentimes it's not up to speed. So do you think from her perspective, so does that give me a strong desire to want to do it again? You know, encourage ladies out there, encourage your husband, your spouses, your partners when they are partaking because it's very uncomfortable instead of critiquing, we're giving constructive feedback, you know, when your kids, So this is me coaching, I told you, I always give an example, going back to the kids, right? 

So when your kid is picking up a crayon for the very first time and you know, Laura will see it, I'm holding it with a fist, right? And this is how they hold it, I believe that. And then they start writing on a piece of paper, hopefully, right, we instruct them as to where we want them to do it, not on the walls or anything and they're and they're doing something and they're just making scribbles, I don't know about you, but in my house I'm like, “Oh my goodness, Jaden, that's amazing. What is that?”   It's just scribbles. We, as men, are very sensitive, we have egos, and the person who could crust those egos the most ladies is you because we're most vulnerable with you.

So if we do a diaper change a diaper or we do the dishes and there's a speck left on it. Just ignore the spec and say, hey honey, thank you so much for helping out in the kitchen. It really meant a lot while I was taking in bathing the child and then he's gonna go, wow, I got kudos for that were just like dogs. Right? You put us on the head a little bit, were real simple beings. I know you think were the complex beings, real simple beings. Just pet us a little bit and stroke us a little bit and guess what? He may just do the dishes again. But if he gets a critique or criticism isn't like why did I do it anyway? It wasn't appreciated. 

Laura: Yeah. I mean, I think we all operate better in a context where we are unconditionally accepted when we are appreciated, when were affirmed, when we have affection and admiration coming at us. For sure. Yes. And I mean, so you're, you're touching on something in the academic world. It's called maternal gatekeeping. And it's the absolutely something that we do. I mean we do it and we there's so much research on that trait that moms have.

And in doing so we limit the people around us and we limit ourselves. We box ourselves in. And I think we come at it from a place of, you know, it's easier to just do it myself if I want it done right, I have to do it myself. And these are all stories that we tell ourselves. So I really like helping parents break down like, okay, so what story my telling myself right now? What am I making it? mean? What am I making it mean that when he washes the dishes, that there's still food left on it? What am I making that mean? About about me, about our relationship, about his commitment to his care for our family, and is that true? Isn't actually true? And what else could be true? What other things are also true? 

So, yes, there's still specks of food on the dishes after he washed them. And he also was rushing to get the dishes washed, that he could be present for bedtime. And, you know, he was on a work call while he was washing the dishes to, you know, like, there's always alternative ways, alternative stories, alternative narratives with these things, you know, an opening. We don't know. We also don't know what's true. So, I think you're saying before that we often go to our partners with you don't do it this way and kind of accusations. 

But we also go to them telling them what they think and what they feel. You must not care about our family. We go there with kind of ideas already firmly planted in our minds rather than coming from this softened curious place. And this is not, I don't think either of us are saying like that we can just excuse kind of, you know, not being done well in the home, you know, but always, always coming from a place of support, encouragement. We're on the same team. We're always working together here. You know what I mean? There's always room for improvement. But when we want to get improvement, we have to come from a place that's curious.

Ryan: I'm from a place of love. Yeah. You know, you were saying I always say my coaching, there's no right or wrong, right? There is no right or wrong. I think they're just is and if we could accept it for what it hasn't come from a place of love and understanding. If we ask questions, hey, you just said curiosity. “Hey, you know, I was curious. She did the dishes and I just wanted to make you aware they weren't quite done the right way. You must have been in a rush because I know you read to make it last night” and I heard her laughing up there with you and that was amazing. And it's just bringing an awareness like, “Hey, just take a little bit more effort” but acknowledge everything behind it that happened. 

Laura: Yes. And assuming the best of them, right? And yeah, I mean, and even just shifting from curiosity. So if we're noticing, you know that they're struggling with something with parenting. For example, when we got a three-year-old who's having lots of meltdowns, right, we notice that they're struggling to stay calm during those meltdowns. We can come to them in a quiet time outside at that moment and be like this kid's having a lot of meltdowns, I'm struggling to stay calm. What about you? We can come from a place of like who I see this struggle, I'm experiencing it too. We are turning into each other, we are on the same team, let's figure out what we need to do as a parenting team to stay calm during these meltdowns because three is intense, you know, you've got a three-year-old at home 

Ryan: And he is, you know, three going on  30 he runs the house and honestly my nine-year-old, his first child wants acceptance from his parents, very good in school, you know, listens to everything. He's like this model kid in so many ways and then we have the terror right behind him and we love him right to death. But he is a complete opposite of his brother in so many ways and I think we took for granted some of the blessings we had the first go around and this one just presents different and new challenges 

Laura: And new balance, like new benefits to write new opportunities to grow and learn and build new skills. I always think that those challenging kids are here to wake us up and help us figure out, Okay, so there's a new trigger now, I need to work on that one. Okay, thank you child for showing me where I have a feeling to do 

Ryan: Right and it’s awareness around that for self-right for my wife and I like, okay, like we knew he was going to be different, we didn't know it was gonna be this different, but he is absolutely different. And I call him challenges because I like to face challenges, right? Some people would call problems, but I like to face this challenge and learn how to adapt to this new child. I was telling somebody one day I go, you know, I could do remember, I showed a picture of my nine-year-old when he was about four.

Somebody said, show me a picture of your son. And I was flipping through my phone and the first one I came across, he was making himself a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and he had a butter knife in his hand and this moms listen to what I'm about to say, don't be critical of other parents. Oh, really? Good parenting. Is that a knife I see in his hand? And my immediate response was like, yes. She goes, why would you give a four-year-old a knife? I said, because I trust him. 

And I said, would you not give you a four-year-old butter knife? And she says, oh, no, not mine. And I said, okay, she knows her child. I would not give my 3 and a half-year-old, soon to be four year old a knife. Because at this point, that's not something I trust him with, right? Just because of who he is. And we have to adapt our parenting styles to our children, right? It's not one size fits all their different people they are.

Laura:  And bringing it back to this, your book, be the dad you wish you had. I think that this is something that I hear a lot too. But in flipping through, I think that what you're really saying is you know what you're saying right now is that we have to yes, we've got to figure out how we would have liked to have been parented, but we also have to figure out how this particular child in front of us needs to be parented. And I think that that's the same for our partners too, so we're giving you know, kind of standard across the board information, but we're all individuals and your individual partner likely has different thoughts, different feelings, and that like that. 

I always just come back to curiosity. I think if we can just get to a place of like what is it that even just the thought of the story you were telling about? The very first thing you think about when you find out you're going to be a parent and how often times the dads you work with, they got about 4, 5 or six when they're older. I feel really curious about if that's true for my husband, I'm going to ask him that tonight. These are things that are ongoing conversations that we can have with our partners to get to know them better. You know, what did they think parenting was going to be like? 

Ryan: So and I think for men, like if you were to ask a man, what is your biggest fear around parenting? His fears are going to be more around. I'm not able to provide for my family. Am I going to be enough for this child? Right? There's this big, huge hole of like is this child going to know that I love them, right? There's going to be this emptiness, but why? Because so many men, maybe their father didn't provide for them in a way that he desired to. Maybe dad never said I love you. I can't tell you how many men I talked to. And I said that your father ever say I love you. And they'll say he told me once and they'll tell you the exact time how old they were, where they were, what they were wearing. Because it only happened once in their entire life. Right? 

So a man coming into this and I am I enough. Well, maybe because he didn't feel his father was enough, right? These are the fears that men have that so many women may not understand because we're not allowed to be vulnerable enough because we're supposed to be the strong breadwinner for the home, that we're not allowed to say these things.

So as your listeners are listening, I guarantee you one of those three challenges are the challenges that your husband or all three or partner face is I'm not enough and I see you. You know, Laura's over here tearing up because this is true. And if you don't understand that, you're like, well, why don't you just hold the child? Well, nobody ever held me. I didn't feel like I don't know how to give love because I never give I don't know how to say I love you without choking up in my own throat because I never heard it from my own father. And I don't know if that's the right thing or the wrong thing to do. I'm just going back to your word modeling what happened to me.

We need to make a conscious effort as men to say. That's malarkey. That's B. S. That's garbage. Because I wanted to know I was loved by my father. So I must tell my child I love them. I must tell them I believe in them. I must tell them I trust them. I must tell them I'm proud of them because I wanted to hear all those things myself. 

Laura: Yeah. So you totally just made me start crying. It wasn't intentional. No, I'm a tearful person and I, I felt really connected to very deep pain that all of us feel at times. Am I lovable? Am I enough? 

Ryan: And the answer is yes. Every single one of you out there. The answer is yes. Because you have a clean slate with these amazing children and you can start today, no matter how old they are, you can start today. 

Laura: Yes. 100%. And I think you really hit on something that's so, so important for all of us to know about men and boys in the way that they are raised in the society. They are not taught, it's okay to feel anything other than anger or to show emotions in any way other than aggression. And they are in a touch deficit from the time. Therefore, boys get touched less by their parents and caregivers, they don't know.

And for if dads are listening to this, it makes sense that you don't know how to support your kid through their big feelings when you yourself have never been held and supported through yours and you've never, all you've ever learned is to stuff it down. I feel, I don't know, so much deep pain for men. 

Ryan: Well, and I'll just share two perspectives from you as a man, Right? So my son, my nine-year-old, still holds my hand when we go places, right. And when he was five and we first went into school, I'm like, he's a big boy. Should he be holding my hand? But he wanted to hold my hand and I've done enough research and enough reading to let him hold my hand right? But even though I've done a ton of research and reading my brain saying, should I be holding his hand? Well, forget my brain. You know, he needs to hold my hand because that's what brings him comfort in this big bad school or walking through this mall or walking down the street. So if that's what he needs, I'm there to meet his needs and let him know that he is loved and that's how he receives love. Now he's nine years old, right? 

And I'll tell you kind of our morning routine is I go into my son's room when he's got to get up at 6: 30 I stroke his hair this morning right? Sometimes back sometimes, but right. And I get into bed with him and I say good morning, how was your day? Did you sleep well? Are we going to have a fantastic day today? And I even question I did this just this morning And I think to myself, he's nine, he's almost 10. How long do I do this? I don't care how long I do this, I do this until he says, dad, get out of my bed, I'm 16 because I wanted to know that he is loved. 

I'm not the norm. I get that, but I would love for it in the next 10, 15, 20 years for this to be a norm. Oh my God, there's nothing wrong with it. And there's everything right with him knowing that he's starting his day. Being told by his father that he loves him, encouraging him about his day and saying now get out of bed, go to the bathroom and get dressed because we got to get down for breakfast because that's kind of how it goes, right? He gets like five minutes of just waking up. I know I don't use an alarm clock. I don't like to be abruptly woken up, I ease out of my day and into my day. So I do the same thing for my kids and then when he goes down, I go into the other one's room. Yeah. Good morning. 

Laura: That connection to like when kids are connected to their parents, they are more cooperative. They start their day, they feel good, they feel centered, they feel grounded and I so agree if we can have this generation of parents who are parenting right now if we compare our kids with love and acceptance and them knowing that's what they deserve. Like that's the treatment that they deserve, How to do it, How to manage their emotions in a way that is responsible but also accepting. I mean, oh gosh, can you imagine what this generation of kids is going to do, how they're going to be as parents? I just, it's going to be amazing. I'm so excited to watch it.

Ryan: And there's a flip side to all this. So I mentioned all these nurturing things that I do as a dad because I believe, but I will tell you the boys respond to me when I lay down the law to its there is this balance right. I want to give them all of those things, but it's also, hey, I need you to pick that up now. And what did I just say? And I always ask my kids, how many times do I have to say something once you and then they go do it right. 

But they're getting all of their needs met. They need that structure of dad knowing that he's going to put his foot down. But I also love them. You know, there's this big, huge evolution to being apparent and there's encouragement out there ladies because I knew absolutely nothing. But it all starts with some very simple, simple things and 

I would love to share with your audience a free download of what I called it that daily for. It takes four minutes a day. So get this. So dad's one of the biggest objections. Every mom is going to relate to this at some level. I'm busy, I’m working, I don't have time. Have you ever heard that? Yeah, so four minutes a day max and the dad's Daily Four is simple and as a doctor, Laura can sit there and say yes, these are proven strategies. 

But even in the dad daily for which you could get at FBI dads dot com for slash laura. And in that way, you know, you could go and get that free download. So this is what the dad's daily for is I want dads to tell their kids and I mentioned it earlier. Tell your kids you love them every single day through your words and your actions. Tell your kids that you trust them. I told you earlier, I trusted my son with that knife. Sometimes he says, hey, I want to do this and I have to teeter on my head and I'm like, you know what? I think I can trust you with that. I think go ahead, go do it. 

And I use the words I trust you because if I tell him I trust him, he starts trusting himself right? Similar to trust as I believe in you. Yeah, I believe you can do that. And then the last thing and I love doing this because I do it with my both of my boys every single night. But I'm just asking your husbands to think about doing it when you're in conversation with the kids throughout the day. I want dads to finish this sentence and moms, you can do all these things too. But you probably do it a lot more naturally than dads finish this sentence. I am proud of you because personally, it's in my night routine with my kids.

I tell them five things every day that I'm proud of them for. And then I asked him a follow-up question of is there anything that I didn't mention that I would be proud of you, that I may not know about that you did today and so many times like why did this Right? He's all excited. They're all excited, wow! Dad's proud of me of all this. Well, you know, I did this too and I did this, and if dads can just sit there somehow fit that into the repertoire, at least the, I love you, I am proud of you and I trust you and I believe in you will come because there's more interaction. I think kids are growing up with confidence knowing that dad loves them and believes in them, that every boy and girl needs at a cellular level.

Laura:  Yeah, we all need those four things. We all need them. Yeah, thank you so much for that. I really, really appreciate it, brian that you came on and you shared so openly and so candidly about this. It was really helpful. So listeners go download your daily for and not just families with dad's on them too. So no matter your family structure, that daily four sounds like a great place to start. Thank you.

Ryan: Thank you. 

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um, and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family, and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this.

Episode 62: Dad's Mental Health Matters Too! with Eli Weinstein (Feature on Fathers Series No. 1)

So we just ended our month-long series for Motherhood and now, I want to give you another series that will focus on fatherhood & feature some amazing dads! The parenting world is filled with the voices and perspectives of mothers and while I love having space where our voices are prioritized, I also think it can contribute to the idea of the mom being the "default" parent or the one who is responsible for doing the research and learning associated with parenting. But what the research actually shows is that dads play a unique and important role in kids' lives and that kids in families with both a mom and a dad do BETTER when their dad is actively involved in the day-to-day tasks of parenting.
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And then of course there is the important point that not all families have a person who identifies as a mom in them, and those families are often left completely out of the discussion in parenting circles. So for the month of June, the month when we celebrate both Father's Day and Pride in the US, we are going to hear from the dads! We will be focusing on Dads, their mental health, what we need to know about them, and how to support them.
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And for the first episode, I'm bringing in a friend and colleague, Eli Weinstein. He is a dad, a coach, and the host of The Dude Therapist Podcast which aims to give men and women alike a safe space for them to grow. He will help us learn and be aware that Dads' mental health is also important.
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Here's an overview of what we talked about:

• Mental health and parenting

• Faulty systems and lack of support for parents

• Learning vs Intuition when it comes to parenting

• Finding yourself in parenting

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Follow him on Instagram @eliweinstein_lcsw and visit his website www.elivation.org. To learn more about what he does and his services, check out linktr.ee/elivation.

Don't forget to tune in to his podcast. There's a lot of good information in there about mental health and parenting.

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TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen and we are back with another episode of the Balanced Parent Podcast and today I have a guest, a dad therapist, and the host of the dude therapist podcast, Eli Weinstein, it's so nice to have you here with me, thank you for being here.

Eli: Thank you for having me. You know it's not very often you find great podcast about parenting and as a parent, always looking for good things to listen to and to be part of. So I'm really excited.

Laura: Yeah, okay, so tell my listeners a little bit more about yourself, like who you are and what you do. 

Eli: Sure I'm a therapist out in New York, I work in a clinic right now in Queens, doing everything teletherapy because of corona. So really my offices, wherever I am and I'm a father of a one and a half-year-old, little adorable cutie. Her name is Ricky, married to my wife for a little over five years and just taking it day by day, you know, taking it day by day. 

Laura: Yeah, so you're in this transition phase, you know, so the statistics about marriages and that first year of like as you've transitioned to parenthood are pretty bleak. I don't know if all of our listeners know this, but marital satisfaction plummets in the first year after you have a baby in general averages and doesn't start to recover until that baby is three. And so you're in the midst of that, I'm like on the other side with my older kids, how is it going with the little one? 

Eli: I would say that we're a very strong, you know, we have great communication, were very strong in our bond and why we're married and we were married for definitely it's been a rough year, you know, with more stressed, on edge, frustrated and snippy. I'm speaking for myself, more snippy and snappy at little things and getting frustrated a lot easier. But that comes with the territory of being a parent and literally throwing a human being to take care of into the mix of the life that you thought you already got used too of being married. So it's been a bumpy ride, but not in a bad sense, just about the natural way it should go and we really enjoy it. We're really enjoying parenting.

Laura: Yeah, that's awesome. I think it's so important for everybody to know that when we transition into parenthood, there's three identities that are shifting their right. There is the mom or the one parent's identity, there's the other parent's identity and then there's the relationships’ identity. It's also shifting and needs to go through transition. Is there anything that you have done that's made that easier for you and for your wife? 

Eli: Definitely trying to before we had a kid, it was more a lot easier just to have a date night or intimacy, not just in the bedroom, but outside of the bedroom of just connecting and spending time with each other. And now it has to be like a very active thought process or very active data processing, very intentional. So when we do have a moment or something that we would enjoy, we make it a moment to realize this is our time and we're going to take advantage of it whether, you know, I bought her for her birthday, it's called the Adventure challenge book. It's some new Instagrammable book that's like a scratch-off date night that you don't know what's going to happen until you scratch off and like those little things. So like if we know we have babysitting and we know we can do without worrying about our baby, well do something from there or we'll watch our favorite movie or a favorite tv show or go out to dinner or whatever it is now with Corona and wherever you live, trying to do our best to have moments of each other with each other just with each other and it's been a challenge but we made it work, we made it work and also sometimes it's just not forcing it and just relaxing because we're so tired you know, 

Laura: giving yourself a little bit of grace and permission right? 

Eli: 100% you know. 

Laura:  Yeah, and I don't know about you, but for me, my husband and I realized early on, so we became parents while we were in grad school, he was getting his Ph.D. in accounting. He's attacks nerd and I was getting my Ph.D. Yeah, it totally is. Oh, it's so bad. Anyway. I mean he's wonderful. I love him, but totally nerdy when we were dating, he would like call me at night and he would be like eating nachos and reading the tax code. He's such a nerd anyway.

But when we were in grad school and it was just so easy to go through the motions of being partners, we were so, you know, we were both writing our dissertations, you know, I had practical because I was in a clinical program, you know, we had a baby, it was so easy to just fall into the day to day. And so we really realized that when we started noticing the snippets, the kind of a latte shortened window of tolerance for each other. That's when we really needed to put our phones away, put our computers away. Like we would go tech-free for the first hour after our kid was in bed and that really helped us and we still do that to this day. 

Eli: I think that's a very amazing goal. You know, I think it's a wonderful thing to do. I also think that once we finally got a schedule for our daughter, but also helped whether it was, I know Corona, for my family has moved us around between places were based in Queens, my wife from L.A, we went to L. A. For four months to be with her family, to get away from new york and the craziness of corona and being the fun in the sun and now we're back in new york and you know, the time change and all these things are just getting into a habit and being with each other. We worked around the schedule, but it's very important to make that time because the snippets is going to happen, right your window. I like that the window of tolerance of dealing with each other shorter and you want to enjoy yourself and be with each other and have a good time and not be frustrated and resenting each other all the time just because there's a beautiful baby in your life.

Also, I would say, just to throw something else in there, My wife and I went through infertility. So our child, whether good or bad, Is like a huge blessing in our life that we truly don't take for granted and are 100% bought in with the good times and the hard times because we have had to work so hard to have the child. So that gives us a different perspective that we might not have had before if it came naturally or a little easier than the dead. 

Laura: Yeah. So your parenthood was hard-won. I mean, that can bring a whole set of unique layers to it too. Yeah, 100%. Well, one thing I love hearing about on your podcast is when you talk about mental health and I think that we don't talk about mental health for dads as much. I was just talking with another colleague of mine and she had read a study that opened her eyes to the rates of postpartum depression and dads. And this is something that I included in my dissertation because my dissertation was on how parent depression influences parenting practices. Yeah, it's super nerdy but good, you know? 

Eli: But I'm a therapist nerd, you know?

Laura: Yeah. And so, but I think that we don't think about mainstream folks. I don't think no, that dads can experience postpartum depression to can you talk with us a little bit about that?

Eli: I love it too because I know when my wife was pregnant and we were getting ready to go back and all those things and the checklists and mentally getting prepared when we were leaving the hospital, whatever class they gave us at the hospital to let us know we were okay. Even the class was focused on the mom here signs of postpartum depression for the mom and here's and I knew that as a therapist, but it's never bad to have a refresher course and just to keep me aware because my mind was so frazzled and I barely had sleep for the last couple of days just having a baby. 

So my focus was always on her, always on her, always on her and the baby. I lost track of myself in that and actually had my first panic attack about a month into my baby's life. I thought I was dying. You know, it also gave me a great insight into my clients who have panic attacks and when they told me that the feelings and symptoms, and I'm like, yeah, sure I know this from the books and now I can say, like, yeah, I understand. Not that I would never say I understand, but I get the perspective of what they're saying. And then the focus is on me. My wife is a warrior. I mean, she's wonder woman, she's amazing, she's strong, and she's great. And I love her to pieces. She was totally fine afterwards in the confines of having a baby, right?

And there's always changes in hormone levels. And she had a C section an emergency section and all the stuff and it was a lot of stress regarding her mental health. She was bought in, she was great. The only show she had was the breastfeeding and how frustrating it was. Other than that I was the one who had most of the mental health issues when it came to the parenting side. And as a therapist, I looked at myself and I said come on what the heck? Like you're the therapist get it together or this is not supposed to happen to you. It happens to the woman, not like what's wrong with you? And it's very true that there is a huge case of postpartum mental health issues with men and dads out there and when I started posting about it and talking about it I was like, oh I went through the same thing. Oh my gosh, I didn't know you did that, wow, it's so interesting. I had the same feeling, you know, it was just so interesting to see how common it is. But let's talk about or focused on the mainstream thought process of mental health with postpartum, 

Laura: You know, and I mean it's not to say that women are so beautifully supported as they leave and enter into motherhood. They're not like postpartum depression and postpartum para natal mood disorders more broadly are still very poorly understood and women, oh my gosh, we need so much advocacy, but dad's due too, you know, there's or whoever the nonbirthing parent is, you know what?

Eli: It's interesting. Yeah.

Laura: I think parents’ mental health in general needs more attention and more support. It's so important. It impacts so much and in these incredibly formative years we there's so much research on how important those first three years of life are, You know, and how important insurance are. No right, no pressure. Oh sorry. 

Eli: It's true that no, no, I love it. I love the pressure. You know, it's so true that there's not enough focus on that mental health piece which is not just for the parents, but also the impact that could have on the child or children and how that plays in their life. And also what I would say is that I think it's very interesting that the focuses a lot about the women and you're right, I don't think that women get as much support. 

Even the terminology we use for time off is like a disability and all the ways we look at it as a problem or like an issue or a handicap that you gave birth to life to continue the generations of the world. It's a totally different conversation for a totally different time. But I think mental health and parents should be a huge focus but is not and is forgotten or push aside two different things and it's very hard to figure out.

And there's so many complex layers going into it as well biologically your space, your identity, who you are, where things are going, your life, your routine, your behaviors or habits are just thrown up in the air and you have this little baby relying on you and you need to be okay as well. And that's a very hard thing. 

Laura: It is, it's hard. And I also think that there's one piece coming to realize like, oh gosh, I'm not okay and then taking that next step to find figuring out. Okay. So who do I go to and I know you have a recent podcast episode kind of on that right? Therapy 101 or something like that. Yeah. So I think folks should check out the episode. I'll link to it in the show notes here on that. But I also have a video that kind of breaks down all of the letters after people's names so that you understand who you're going for and who to look for and who does

Eli: The alphabet’s crazy man. Every, every letter in the alphabet used in most people, You know, it's, I was just talking to someone jewelry rose and she is an LmFT and I didn't get a chance to ask her on the podcast but like talking about what your letters after your name mean any different than an L M H C or an L C S W R A P H D. Um, and how that can change someone's choice in deciding if you're the best fit for them. 

I know for me, the moment where I actually needed to ask for help was when I was up half the night, but literally sitting on the floor in the living room almost pulling my hair out in anxiety and not knowing why and realizing and looking in the mirror going, something's not okay. And I think I had a better perspective on it because I'm a therapist and for the regular person in the world who might not be trained or might not know or have knowledge of what where and how can be very scary. And it was already scary for me can be very scary about, well I don't know where to go next. And sometimes it's very hard for the partner as well to see that because they're so overwhelmed with their own stuff that they might not be able to help or have compassion fatigue already helping their child to be able to help another human being is just that much more of a challenge. But definitely get help if you need 100% over. 

Laura: Absolutely. I mean, if anything else, you probably have your kid's pediatrician on like that, you can message through your doctor like the, I don't know the pediatrician office app. But if you can send a message there, they will send you a list of referrals 

Eli: Actually, I don't know what it was when your kids were younger. But when we were starting off the first few, you know, weeks or so of the doctor's visits, they made me do a like a, like a parent's PHQ 9 depression scale kind of thing. And when I scored, I didn't even realized what, what it was because it wasn't framed in the same way as a regular PHQ nine. It was like hidden. And when the doctor looked at it and said, is everyone okay? And we said, yeah, the baby is great. She's growing, she's beautiful. She's, you know, she's cute. There's no, no. Are you guys okay? Yeah. I was like, yeah, I'm doing good actually. My husband's not. And he then turned to me and said, what can I do to help? 

Yeah. And that point on, I fell in love with his pediatrician. He's very into and he keeps checking in on me like I'm doing great now. But the first month and then what really changed for me as a father was paternity leave. That was a life-changer. If you can, I highly suggest that one for the dads out there to connect with their children and two for the moms to get a break and for the moms to help give trust and confidence in their husband or other partner to feel like they can do it because I know and my wife even feels this way now even though I'm confident and I'm very good at what I do as a parent and I love my daughter and I would do anything for her. She's a default mommy, mommy, this that oh mommy, mommy, everything's mommy and it's adorable and cute. I'm not jealous whatsoever, even though secretly I am love the hugs and kisses for myself.

But that being said, sometimes parents pushed the other parent away, not on purpose just because they become the default and the other person kind of sits there with their hands twiddling their thumbs, not knowing how to be confident and be a parent as well. So for me to turn to leave was a huge eye-opener because I had no other option. My wife is at work, so I had to figure it out and it changed everything for me and from that point on it clicked and I've never looked back and I've spoken to other parents, dads, moms, any combination of parenting that to me, I think it's a huge turning point for a lot of people to build their confidence that they can do it and their baby is going to be okay and it's going to be a wonderful bond. 

Laura: Yeah and that mutual confidence to I think, you know.

Eli: I can trust you.

Laura: Yeah, I can trust you, and then you're able to you know, project more confidence and it just builds from there. I so agree, you know, I leave policies in this country are awful in general, but my dear cousin who is practically like a sister to me, has a new baby at home and her husband's company has no paternity leave, None. So he's working from home for two weeks. But other than that he'll be back and it's, we do such a disservice to families when we don't get aren't able to take a leave. But then there's also like for many men who I've spoken to and in the academic circles that I run in, men are discouraged from taking it two. They think, I mean your job, job, you should be doing that right. 

And if more men did take it, it would even the playing field. So like an academic couples where both couples are on the tenure track it takes and their heterosexual. It takes women seven years longer on average to get tenure because they have clock restarts, they take time off. And I mean it just perpetuates the differences were getting into the patriarchy and that's a whole other topic.

Eli: I actually important grad school. I did a research study on paternity leave and maternity leave in other countries and the Netherlands. I would move to the Netherlands just for that. Yeah. The amount they give like a year to two years off for parents.

Laura: Per parents.

Eli: I definitely for the mom, definitely for the mom, I'm not sure about the father. I don't think the father was actually spoken about in the research studies done in other countries, definitely. It was the focus was the mother, which is a whole nother thing, whatever. And that the mom got a year off with solidified job safety and full pay And a nanny for the 1st 3-4 months. It's like this crazy. But that's a socialist country or other countries of that nature. That's what you get even in London. That happens in the UK. You get a nanny like a baby nurse for a little bit. So it's interested in how we are considered the most free and wonderful country. But something so simple as having a kid can be so interesting. I mean that's what not to get into politics right here. And we're getting real and raw.

Laura: parenting is political. It's inherently political. You know? And I mean this pandemic has highlighted that so much in our country, the way that we rely on systems that are faulty and that always fall back. I mean there's a reason why hundreds of thousands of women left the workforce in the fall.

Eli: I mean colleagues of mine who left because of parenting.

Laura: because they had to do childcare, the kids are going to school and it would mean disproportionately impacted women too. So I mean we can get all fired up about this. Okay, so one last question that I wanted to ask you. So this is something that I hear from dads that I work with all the time and from my own husband. They tell me that they don't want to learn about parenting, that they want to be able to trust their instincts, they want to just be instinctual. And I wanted to kind of get your take on that as a professional and as a dad, like, like tell me, what do you think about that? What's up with that?

Eli: I'm smiling ear to ear. I love that question. My wife and I have had multiple conversation about this and for me it depends on the topic. My wife is a dietitian, so she is trained in eating and how to eat well and what to eat when you should eat it and how much you need to eat and what foods you should eat. And she's done research on this and she has a degree and works this every day just like I work as a therapist.

And I, when it came to feeding our child, was instinctual like, oh, they should eat this and that because that's what my brother did and that's what my parents didn't. “Oh yeah. Why you this? Why it that” I was like, I want to do baby-led weaning and I said, what is this? And she taught me about it And I was so pushed back on it, you can ask her, she'll vouchers 100%. She pushed back and I pushed back and said, this is ridiculous, I have to do this. She's going to waste all this food and we should just feed her the jars and all the things. My baby has such an eclectic palette. She eats everything and anything that we eat, she eats. If you haven't had a chance to look into it, it's called Baby Led Weaning the Baby leads and it's a very big thing in Europe and it's only getting steam in America now, 

Laura: both my kids were baby leads.

Eli:  It's amazing. I push back because I felt into this intuitive thing. But as an avid reader and someone that I loved on fiction and it's my go-to read, I read everything nonfiction. I love baby books and parenting books. 

Laura: You were willing to read those books.

Eli: because that to me is for my knowledge as a therapist and I'm a dad. So for me in my thought process of what I love to do in a passion of mine, I thought this is great. One another excuse to buy more books to reading and knowledge and connections and thought processes and research and all these things that are great and opened my eyes to a lot of things that I thought to be intuitive that we're not or vice versa, whether it's how to speak to your kids, how to deal with tantrums, all those things that I didn't really know or wasn't involved in because I wasn't apparent yet. 

So I didn't even read those books. Why would I look into that if I wasn't a parent? But now as a parent, I'm looking to those books, it helps me with my clients who are parents who are dealing with teenagers who are doing it just gives me a perspective. So it was kind of selfish why I read the books, but also because I want my child to grow up healthy and well, whatever that means for her and all my children to be great to their abilities in their own uniqueness and beauty. But I also want to help them as much as best as I can as a parent. I go back and forth about the intuitive thing because I think women as a whole love to look into and research are so driven by knowledge to help their child they're all in because it's like, I think it's an innate beauty of the connection between the mother and the main parent or the default parent to the child to look into and research, whether it's strollers, car seats, what food to eat, when to do, sleeping routines, all these things and the guy just sits there and goes, you got this. It's not, I didn't feel involved because my wife is just, that's her personality and I love her for and she went for it. And I took the reins for the mental health side and development side of our child. I looked at it from that perspective and knew that stuff and we came together as a team.

But it doesn't mean we didn't get upset at each other or frustrated each other, disagreeing on points about how to parent and went to feed her child and habits and sleep patterns and all those things. We got into it just like every other parent. But in the end, the one lesson that I take away from all of it is trusting my wife and her, trusting me that when I say I've looked into something or I've done my research or I would like to do something as a parent to embrace it and try it out. As long as not hurting our child. I'm not suggesting something with malicious intent, which I hope no parent does, but you never know that it's for the best and I'm not just doing it for fun. I'm doing it because I believe it's best for our child and that's the conclusion we came to, to trust each other's institutes and research and thought process and embrace it and love it and back each other up on it.

Laura:  So what though I get what you're saying and I think you're speaking to something called accepting influence, which in the couple's therapy world we know is one of the hallmarks of a successful relationship that couples who accept influence from each other have more longevity. 

But the like when there is resistance to learning to digging into questioning because oftentimes of parents that I work with, their parenting against the grain, they are parenting differently than how they were raised. They are parenting in almost like a revolutionary way, you know, and it's hard, it's not easy and it's not easy when you're one partner and you feel like you're kind of pulling your other partner along and I think women in general and we're making generalities and kind of making assumptions about what a family is made out of. 

And I know I have a lot of nonhetero couples who listen to my podcast, but I do think that women, lots of the women that I work with feel plagued by indecision, they don't feel confident, they don't feel like they can trust their intuition. And I think that it has a lot to do with the way that women are socialist. I think we're socialist, not trust our intuition and I think that oftentimes men are socialized to be instinctual to trust their gut, go with your gut, you know, and I think that that's one of the differences that really like, there's a piece of male privilege in wanting to just go with your instinct that is a little goes unexamined in the parenting world. You know.

Eli: I love that. And I think it's so true and my wife would love that. I say this because she says sometimes, sometimes I say things with full confidence just because I think it might be true without knowing anything with like, and I'm a confident guy and I say it with full fervor and I'm like, yeah, let's do this. And she's like, why? And I'm like, because why? I'm like, I don't know, it feels right because I say it was so much excitement, energy doesn't mean it's right. And I think that my wife does not do that as much. She looks into it first before she has the confidence to say “Eli, let's try this.” And I go, hey, you know, I saw this commercial, I saw some Instagram thing, I said, let's just go for it. Let's do it. And I don't look into it fully or know why it would be good. I don't do this very often when I do have a chance to do it, I do it with full excitement and intuition and so, 

Laura: and then there's a balance there. right then exactly partner who balances if you're out and as long as you are agreeing to accept influence from each other.

Eli:  Yeah, I think it's just about trying. One of the biggest things that I've learned from my parents and my in-laws and other parents that I've seen, my brother and my cousins and everyone that has a kid around me was teamwork and this is a lot easier said than done by no means is parenting ever going to be easy no matter how many books you read or how many classes you take or how many therapists you see, parenting is hard because the Children are complex and they're beautiful and magical in their own way and each child could be different. So the things that work for the first child might not work for 2nd, 3rd, 4th, you know, and really throw off your game. 

But the idea to be together that you trust each other and have each other's back through that process and follow each other's leads when they take that lead to embrace that and push them forward and help them and be confident with them and let them do it I think is important and totally, totally impactful for your mental health as a parent and the kids lives as they go forward.

Laura:  Yeah, I so agree. I mean that's what they say, right? Teamwork makes the dream work.

Eli: And sometimes the dream is hard to get to, but you get there, you know? 

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. I think that that is so important. I think you're so right, Okay, so one last question for you, Ellie. So if you had to pick one parenting book, Alright, so because I usually only get one recommendation on what a parent is actually going to pick up and read. What would be the one that you would recommend All the dads listening pick up and read.

Eli: for the one author because he has multiple books. But I'll say the main book is The Whole Brainchild by Dr. Siegel. I think it's Daniel J. Siegel and combined with Tina Bryson and I truly believe that their series is just so relatable and so easy to read and as a parent, it totally speaks to me with experiences. They are parents, they had so much experience of being therapists for parents and children. I didn't have to think it wasn't dense, it wasn't sterile, it was just very personable and relatable and the tips were interesting and it kind of made me think about things that I might have taken for granted or didn't as a parent and why things happen when they happen to kind of understand just where your kids heads are at, at what stage in life. 

So you don't take it so personally as a parent or don't take it so seriously as a parent and know that your child is just being a child or being themselves and to love and embrace that and go along with it and work with them. And I think their main tagline is to connect and redirect when you see those parents get on like the level of the child and look at them in the eyes and be with them and talk to them. It's not silly, it's not ridiculous. It's not like new parenting or modern parents is just being there with your Children to understand where they're coming from and treat them like they should be treated, which is a child with a brain growing and developing and that truly to me was one of the better books I've read and I'm still bought a few of them and now I'm on to my next one, the brainstorm, which is for teenagers.

Laura: Yeah, I love the whole brainchild too, I think it's a wonderful book if you're looking for a deeper dive from Dan Siegel parenting from the Inside out is also lovely, but that's really like the deep stuff, you know when you start confronting your triggers and your trauma and all the good healing, you've got to do so.

Eli: 100% all the good healing. 

Laura: Yeah. The book that I recommend most of the time for parents where I know I get one book is how to talk. So kids will listen series wherever they yeah, 

Eli: that is my next book on my list of my next bet.

Laura: How to talk. So little kids will listen. I don't know about you but I know that for me, I took post-it notes and put like flags on all the little places because you don't.

Eli: if you ask anyone who knows me. I, I literally have a collection of post-it notes every couple of weeks I order from amazon and I get more and more and every book I read every nonfiction which is usually what I read is posted it up with thoughts and ideas. I don't know what each one is, but I know that where the book is that I need to look and I can just rifle through the things. I love doing that. 

Laura: Me too. It's such a helpful way. And I think especially with how to talk to little kids will listen. Every chapter has a one-page summary and cartoons. So like graphic novel style. Like you know, you don't have to read the whole thing because good do it. All right. Eli. Thank you so much for being here with me. Why don't you tell people where they can find you on Instagram?

Eli: Sure. My Instagram handles elevation underscore therapist or at the dude therapist. Reach out to me anytime you want with any questions and I can try to help you as best as possible. And I hope you give it a listen. 

Laura: Okay. All right, thank you everybody for being here with us and thank you for coming and chatting with us today.

 Eli: Thank you for having me. And it's been really great. 

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um, and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family, and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this.

Episode 61: Live Coaching: Transitioning to Motherhood (Motherhood Series No. 4)

We are down to the last installment of the Motherhood Series. I hope you have felt seen and held during this month. If you have some takeaways, please do share it with me by replying to this email. I would love to hear from you!

To end this series we have a live coaching call with one of my Balancing U Community members. She is a first-time mom to a baby born in August last year, and she will share with us her vulnerable journey to motherhood during a pandemic. I hope you will hold a kind and compassionate, loving space as you listen to her story. The transition to motherhood is a very tender time, and even if you made that transition years ago, I am confident that there will be peace & companionship in this episode for you. And if things resonate with you in this podcast, I hope you know that you're not alone, and that you'll reach out and let me know.

TRIGGER WARNING: My guest for this episode shared that at some point in her life, she wanted to inflict self-harm. I just wanted to give you a heads up if in case that's uncomfortable for you.

If you are not in my Balancing U Community yet, I would like to invite you to join us. I created my membership, BalancingU, because I wanted parents to have a one-stop shop for getting their parenting, relationship, & inner work questions answered. It's a space where you can get wrap-around, compassionate support and guidance as you do the important work of conscious parenting. Here are some links where you can check out what is in the membership. (It's a robust resource, but also never overwhelming!)

www.laurafroyen.com/membership

Please don't hesitate to reach out with any questions. I'm looking forward to supporting you even more.

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TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello, everybody! This is Dr. Laura Froyen, in with the balance parent podcast, and on this episode we're doing one on one coaching sessions with a member of my balancing you community, my membership and we're gonna be talking pretty vulnerably about the transition to parenthood.

So you're getting to listen in on a parent's vulnerable journey and I hope that you will hold kind and compassionate, loving space and if things resonate in this podcast, I hope you know that you're not alone. So here we go. Hi Devon, how is it going? How are you doing? Why don't you tell us a little bit about your journey, your family, and how I can support you today? 

Devon: Well thank you for having me and might I just say I didn't know that someone could do I contact through a zoom call, You're amazing. She's really looking at me. So I am a new mom. First-time mom to a baby born in August of this year. Well, last year, I guess now because we finally left. What was funny, we left her behind. 

It doesn't feel any different to me up, but so my son, Quinn was born in august, kind of dead center to the pandemic unfolding. I have a wonderful supportive husband. We generally have a pretty good community around us. We live in the town that he grew up in. I came here in high school, left after high school and ended up coming back. But so we transitioned into parenthood together in august. It's interesting because I think in and of itself it sort of brought up a lot of stuff for my own lived experiences growing up in that nothing was like so bad that I think anyone would have flagged it. 

But it was bad enough that it or hard enough challenging enough for me that I caused me a lot of harm. And so even just identifying that harm and honoring that harm was hard because I was like, but it wasn't like, it wasn't bad. I didn't have to be hospitalized. My kid didn't end up in the nick. You like, what am I complaining about her? Why is it so hard for me? And also because really the only person I spent time with for the first month my son was here was my husband and he is just a rock. 

So he transitioned and like you know, he was ready to hang out and watch the Yankees and you know eat a sandwich and I was like eat a sandwich. What's time to eat a sandwich? There's a baby here. Like, I can't even brush my teeth. What do you mean eat a sandwich? So, yeah, I spent the first couple of months really spinning, luckily for me, I am fairly well in the loop about mental health. And so I knew within two weeks of postpartum that I was probably dealing with a Ramada post-perry part of mood disorder and sought help immediately.

Laura: I'm so glad. 

Devon: Yeah, it's amazing how hard and how bad it is. Even if you get help immediately. Like, that's the narrative I heard was like, oh, seek help. Like, that's the answer. If you realize you're having a problem, seek help, it will get better. No, it's not. Yeah, it's not. No, it's not like I need a root canal and once you take care of my tooth, I'll have no pain anymore. Like it's time. So I'm just really glad that I figured it out fast. I did. I went into my pregnancy with all the right support. I stayed on my medication because I have general anxiety. 

I added a therapist who specializes in peripartum stuff. She was going through her own stuff because of the pandemic, she totally dropped the ball with me and right before I went into labor, like cause me a lot of harm and that was that. So, you know, I think it was just sort of like the perfect coming together of events that caused me to get dropped in a lot of ways and so now I'm seven months postpartum, a couple of little like very reasonable new mom challenges. Like we were kind of chatting about earlier latch issues. 

You know, my milk supply wasn't great because I ended up needing to sleep at night more than I needed to breastfeed and so you know my supply has sort of stayed steady and low but enough to work with supplementing my son has reflux that has always caused problems. But he's just such a sweet little thing that the works he does is like just wine all day when he's having a really hard, he doesn't even really cry that much, he's just lovely. 

But that did not make mattresses mattress since I never really know how you pronounce the word, the process of becoming a mom. it doesn't matter, I don't know, I used to think because resources supports all of that is the narrative of how to stave off a lot of the hardship and some people just flow into it somehow or just really good at masking and so you just really don't see how challenging their experiences. 

But I just found even if you like, I just kept telling myself but I did everything right, like I did everything right, I did what I was supposed to do, why did this happen anyway and figured out really quickly. It doesn't matter like stuff just happens sometimes stuff just happens. So here we are. I'm seven months out, I am luckily getting support, have really great treatment team. The medication is helping time has helped, A lot of skills have helped mindfulness, has helped finding your podcast. It was a big game-changer because it felt like finding some community amidst a sea of isolation but it's a lot to unpack and I'm still sort of unpacking. 

I had a traumatic delivery, the postpartum healing postpartum in a pandemic. Like the normalcy doesn't like there is no normal. I mean the new normal of motherhood is one level, but then there's the like okay but I still have been taking my kid to the grocery store like he's never been in a store before.

Laura: No new motherhood is such an isolating lonely time in our culture anyway. And it's not supposed to be right. So I really think your experience is not a typical because human babies and human mothers are meant to give birth in community with each other. There are biological systems are designed in this way. 

This is one of the reasons why are cycles sync up as women is so that we're giving birth near the same time so we can share care of our baby as we can get the support that we need. And we're supposed to give birth in communities where there are other mothers who are ahead of us, you know where we have aunties and grandmothers who can help us figure out who we are as moms.

How we do this thing and so to give birth in a pandemic where you are isolated and I know lots of people have gone through that transition now and it's different and it's lonely and I guess I just wanted to take a second to normalize that for you and let you know that you're not alone in, I don't know. And having had that very lonely and isolated experience right now, how have you gone about figuring out how to find community? Like how are you doing in that sense? The isolated sense right now.

Devon: I ended up having to really pull back quite a bit in that department. So like at first there's some app like someone really tried, someone tried to do everyone a solid and say, here's an app. It will help you find mom friends, here you go. And so really early on, I was like, all right, I'm gonna get this happen. So download it and it was basically, you know, like a dating app, but for mom, but for me, yeah, totally. 

But I realized almost immediately that they're all, I was getting flooded by mom's pathologizing their babies just flooded with my kid is crying about this thing. My kid has a new growth in this part of their head, has anyone noticed the hair is not growing in in the right way I kids cry sounds a little pitchy my, like it was just a sea of, I mean ranging from things that I would have flagged to two things that I never even would have thought to flag and I was like, oh my gosh.

Laura: That's not good for someone with anxiety.

Devon: No, or someone who's feeling completely isolated to go from nothing to everything all at once. Um and you know, it was all new moms that we're connecting because we're all sort of like, you search out the age range and sort of time of birth that you had. So we're all sort of like, what are we doing? What are we doing? I don't know what I'm doing. Do you know what you're doing?

No, you don't, Okay. So I was like, okay, no, that's not it. So then I started reaching out to moms who have walked this path before. Family members, friends. And really quickly I realized two things. One I felt and I still love all of these people tremendously and there's no part of me that doesn't question that they did the best they could. Like everyone just did the best that they could and everyone's best is completely depleted right now.

So one thing I realized is that because of the pandemic, because of the challenges that each individual has been experiencing, there just really isn't band with for another person suffering like another person struggle and I wasn't prepared to go through the hardest window of my life in the middle of like, I I didn't, I just wasn't thinking my pregnancy was tough, I figured it was going to be cake once I had the kid, I love, like, I love children and I was like, this would be great. I wasn't ready for that. 

And so one like, there just wasn't any extra room, There was only like, I'm trying to survive myself so I can't offer you anything. I'm in survival mode or two. I got a lot of, it's funny, it's something I've experienced in my career, but I hadn't really experienced it as an individual human yet and I guess motherhood was the space to do this. It was a lot of like, yeah, I get it. Like I also experienced something hard or scary or whatever, but like you just have to suck it up. You just have to like it's just part of the deal. Like you just have to be really anxious or you have to be really scared. 

Laura: Welcome to motherhood.

Devon: Yeah, like this is just what it is. 

Laura: Yeah.

Devon: I was like, this is weird, so everyone's just okay with us. Like we're all just onboard with feeling this scared in this awful and this confused all the time. Like.

Laura: That's not okay. No, we're not on board with that here. No, we're not. 

Devon: Yeah, so, and I've always sort of been that way I've always sort of blocked in the face of injustice and that felt unjust to me that we're being asked to bear the emotional, mental, physical labor of bringing new humans into the world and keeping humanity afloat. Like there should be some ease involved, not all ease, like lots of challenge but also some needs some joy. 

So it should just be as complicated as being human is in general and it wasn't getting that to the extreme of people being like straight-up completely not responding, like asking me like going out there and asked me how are you doing? And then me being like oh so I went to my six-week appointment and when I walked into the midwife's office, I hadn't interacted with them in person since my birth and since it was traumatic.I wasn't expecting this, but I walked in and I went to the back to go pee in the cup and I just started crying in the bathroom and I was like oh I think that this really hurt me.

I think this whole process really hurt me and they tried really hard to help me and they have good intentions but I think I still got hurt and I don't think that they can hear that right now because they're really struggling in this pandemic. And so I walked out and I got like I finished my appointment and I held it together, I just kept crying, but because they couldn't tell my mask was on and I got in my car and I started to drive to run an errand before going home, I was just like wow, it would be like super nice to just drive my car off the road right now, it would be super nice to just crash my car. 

And I was like, I don't think that I want to die, but I do think that I don't want to have to be in this state anymore. And I think if I could just get a break for like a couple of weeks, like if I hurt myself enough to be hospitalized for a couple of weeks and could just sleep, could just breathe, maybe it would get better. 

Laura: Devon. I think that the hospitalized fantasy is a fantasy that mothers have, that hardly ever gets talked about, but I think many, many mothers, my own mother told me that there were times that she fantasized during my childhood about getting just sick enough to land in the hospital for a few days.

Devon: Which like that just to me now and it points to how much support are we lacking that the fantasy isn't like going on a blissful vacation with our loved ones or like eating a really amazing meal prepared by someone's really interesting and talented at cooking it. Can I just get myself injured or sick enough to go to a hospital? Like I don't like the hospital, the hospital is not a fun place to be, but I was just craving to be taken care of rather than to have to just keep ripping off layers and myself to care for because I was so functional before having a baby.

I was so confident, I'm so good at my job, I'm such a hard worker, I'm such a good adult and then like I had a baby and I felt, I truly, like, I kept trying to explain to people, I was like, I don't think this is normal, what are you feeling? It feels like I'm dying all the time. Like it feels like my body thinks it's being attacked and I'm going to die imminently all the time. I feel that sort of pressure to escape at a level of you're going to die if you stay right here and I swear to God, like telling any kind of story like that, they're just straight-up would be no text response. Like, the question would be asked would be valued to me like, how are you doing? 

Because I think we know enough to know we're supposed to check on each other, we're supposed to talk about new moms. But if you say what you actually feel, if you say, we're actually experiencing, People are like, Oh God, uh it's people, I love, its people who left me, they just didn't know what to do with that. They truly did not know. And I wasn't even looking for them to fix that. I wasn't like, please call 911 for me, or please call my husband and strategize how to get me care. I was doing all of that. I had it, but I also was suffering and I just needed that to be witnessed and that wasn't happening. It just wasn't happening.

Laura: I think people are really uncomfortable when we're honest in that way. Probably because they've never given themselves permission to be radically honest with themselves, even just acknowledging and allowing the struggle, the uncomfortableness. Yeah, okay, so then let's ask you the vulnerable question, how are you doing right now? What are you struggling with right now? How can I support you?

Devon: Well, so I just transition back to work. That was a big trigger point. This is like next level of vulnerability. I don't know why it's interesting because I'll talk about a lot of hard things pretty openly, but so I have a lot of inner child stuff going on from challenges from when I was really little. Mostly I'm a highly sensitive person and so I get overstimulated very easily and I take things very personally and I'm very empathetic, so I'm usually fairly good at functioning despite like I've learned very, pretty impressively how to navigate the world in this way by sort of like layering my internal world and experience from how I'm presenting and it worked for a long time. 

And then I always describe it as like having my baby just cracked me open and I can't hold the things in like it literally did because he came out with his elbow out and so he quite literally cracked me open, but he like emotionally, you know, they're not kidding when they say like the little person in you and I was listening to some of the stuff that you were saying about yourself being in the room when your kid is going through something like the version of you, that was that age is there with you. So I was like, okay, no, but I'm feeling better. My medication's working, I'm going to go back to work, it's going to be fine. I spent two days straight cleaning my house organizing, getting myself ready, hanging out with my kid, felt fine. 

It's like I got this looking forward to the break from caretaking, looking forward to being an adult. All of that is true, It's still true. And then I woke up in the middle of the night, the night that I was getting ready, like the night before I started work again and I'm working from home, I'm in my house, I'm near my kid. I woke up in the middle of and I, and I was being, and this is the thing that's happened to me about three or four times in my adult life and like, other people won't, like, I've mentioned it to other people that I'm close with and they've been like sort of like, I don't have to say that, which is really funny to me because you know, you can talk about your stitching healing after you give birth. 

And people are like, oh yeah, it sucks, like here's what I recommend for healing, but if you're like, oh yeah, adult bed, what is there? Like, we can't just say that, don't say that out loud, That's so embarrassing. And the first time it happened to me, I was dating my husband, we were dating and it was very embarrassing. Now, it's just sort of like I honestly, it was an immediate like, oh no, like, oh no, what's going on with me that is making me feel this level of sort of like dysregulated.

Laura: Dysregulation that Yeah.

Devon: Yeah, totally. Because I didn't catch it, I thought I was doing okay. I thought it was fine and within three days like I was throwing temper tantrums like a five-year-old and I cried the whole weekend. So I'm very lucky. I have a wonderful therapist who does great work and my husband is still patient because he doesn't get this at all. He can't release this even a little bit who just have supported and stuff, but there's like two things happening, right, which is like figuring out how to sort of parent myself, support myself, make space for all of this when the space was not cultivated, it's not cultivated culturally for us. 

But I kept trying to seek it out for seven months. I've been seeking out that network, that support system and it's like combing for a needle in a haystack because no one has the bandwidth and it's hard to find people who want to be radically open and supportive of each other. Not like, hey girl, how's your day truly? Like I can tell you the thing that's really weighing on my heart and I can say it in the way I really need that, not there, that sounds cute. 

And that I think just keeps re-traumatizing me back to my initial experience of entering motherhood because I will never forget, like I was standing in my backyard, I was on the phone with my therapist. She was explaining to me because it's like how does anyone do this? How do you survive this? How do you go on to have another kid? And she's like, okay, it's all about building up, you know, like a support system, we just have to build the scaffolding, we just have to scaffold. And I was like what does that mean? 

And she's like, we just, you know, we have to identify the resources and the supports and the people. And I was like, yeah, I did that and it all fell out from underneath me, the stuff that I needed it. I was like it wasn't there, it was gone. And she was like, yeah, okay, you're right. Like this situation that you just would be the pandemic. It did everyone scaffolding just got yanked because the way that we do things got yanked.

Laura: And it highlighted how weak the scaffolding actually was, to begin with. 

Devon: Super weak and I don't want that anymore. And I'm hoping right that this is sort of that window that got left. Yeah. Rough rude awakening. I just kept being like, babe, I didn't realize how much I had unresolved, I didn't realize how much I was still in there but now I sort of like have no interest in settling like going through you right for you crashing and burning and really feel it sort of akin to you know like a death experience and talking about the grief of this experience like that explaining another thing I was realizing the other day was describing going out into the world, I had to go drop something off at FedEx the other day.

I was in and out and I saw a bunch of people waiting for in line at the fish market for fish just like normally in mass. But they were normal. They were talking and I started to boxes like how are you buying fish right now? Like my world is not the same. I can't be any more like I don't know who I am anymore. And it's not fair.

And the thing that gets said to me is like, wow, that sounds a lot like people who suddenly lose someone who like spontaneous death and grief, your world is completely changed forever and nobody else notices. Like everything else is normal, but you're different. And I don't know if other moms go through this because I haven't been able to access them.

Laura: Yes. I think that the transition to parenthood absolutely should be viewed as a grieving process. That there is a small death associated with the death of who you were and of course who you were still, you, you're still, there's still those parts of you, but you will never be the same. You'll never be the same. Devon that you were before you had your child. None of us will ever be the same people that we were before this pandemic happened. You've had a series of small deaths in your life. 

Devon: Yeah. Yeah. Which is funny because I keep coming back well and this is it's interesting that this is the thing that they can be emotional. So right at the beginning of the pandemic, I'm just going to.

Laura: It's okay.

Devon: Yeah, breathe, stay in the feeling of it. 

Laura: sit there for just a second. It's okay because your body is very wise. It knows what it needs to cry and tears are healing. 

Devon: Yeah.

Laura: It's okay. 

Devon: And the breath, the rest makes a breath is maybe my best friend these days.

Laura:  Grant just a little bit of space. Little. Mhm. Yeah, because that breath never goes. 

Devon: That's the best scaffold of all time that I've found in parenting. It's just that breath/

Laura: I think that what I'm hearing, what I feel called to tell you right now is that you have everything within you. I know that you've been working on finding outside sources of support, but I want to help you build that scaffolding within you two. I think we have it within us.

Devon:  I think that's where I get left now because like where my thinking just went was right at the beginning of the pandemic. I had this like we'll call the mentor. I had this friend to no one understood friendship. I've always sort of made friends in unique spaces and so I worked out, I worked at a fish fry on the water by the water for a few years between undergrad and grad school and I worked for a manager was just this absolute work in human, like he just was nothing like anyone else. 

And he was the most in the moment. True to himself. Human, I've ever met. It must have been so hard to be married to him. It must've been so hard to be, you know, a child of his for a variety of reasons, but to get to be a friend who found him and who found guidance and mentorship from him was so meaningful and was so impactful in my life. And so and so my friend George was in his mid-sixties when I met him and I was in my mid-twenties. And so I'm sure like a lot of people were suspected like what is what is happening here, because this man was just so wonderful to me in each of my sisters. And so we like really, really reconnected about a year before the pandemic started when I figured out that he was sick and he had lost a ton of weight and he just didn't seem, he just didn't seem like himself. 

So he got me through when I was in my mid-twenties, he got me through some really, really hard confusing experiences, just like sort of laughing with me and being like, oh Devon, Devon Devon, Like, I mean he called me demon because he thought it was funny to make fun of me in a way that because I was always so afraid of being a good person and being kind and being right and coming off right, and he just found every way to poke at me to get me to free myself. And I sort of like knew that coming into parenting that he was going to be hugely important to me. And it's sort of in the way we used to do things where we did have mentorship and ushering ourselves into like adolescence into coming into adulthood. 

I just saw him as sort of like a parenting mentor or someone who was going to help guide my spirit into this practice and I thought he had more time. So he passed away in February and it was like right before the pandemic hit and it was right when I started to feel better. So I didn't get to see him before he passed away because I had been so sick for my pregnancy and I keep coming back to him. It's interesting though, what they say about people sort of living on in you because I keep coming back to him. He keeps showing back up and in funny moments, but I'm really struggling. I'll just like hear his voice just making fun of me. I mean like you're overcomplicating this for yourself, like you know better, you know how to do this, you got this, you know how strong you're, you're fine. And it's so, so, so helpful. 

But I think I didn't realize sort of like those gems in your life. If you've only ever found them outside of you, you don't realize when something like this happens to you and you can't access them, how desperate you'll become to find just that handful. And I kind of like in my head, I'm seeing your sweet little Children carrying around their press because they have such precious little things. You're always sharing those precious little things that they've come up with to love. So it's like the spaghetti squash, like those valuable things in your life. And if they're all external, like it's not like they were things for me. It wasn't like I love a handbag or my car, it was a handful of humans. 

But realizing that this was the most significant shift of my life and the most significant trauma of my life all at the same time and then all that is gone. That's why I was looking everywhere else. I was looking everywhere else because I just I'm so tired of feeling scared and I'm so tired of feeling overwhelmed and they have always helped guide me. And where are we teaching people how to find them inside of themselves? 

Laura: We're not, No, we're not. I mean that's what I hope I'm doing. You are but okay, so I love that you have cultivated a little internal, what was his name? George?

Devon: George.

Laura:  George. You have a little internal George to guide you at times to come come out and I feel curious to if you have spent any time looking within to find your internal wise, compassion itself or voice or we have all of us, within us have a core self who is infinitely wise and infinitely compassionate. And most of the time that self is not running the show, most of the time we have another little part that's running in the show, the part that has learned that certain parts of ourselves and we're not safe out in the world. 

So we got to keep these parts put away, we've got to put up this front, We have to wear this mask and these circumstances and this one in these other circumstances, right? So we're often our true selves are not running the show. Have you spent any time looking within and finding, you know, your inner wise parent?

Devon: Yeah, So my therapeutic relationship, we call this a bus, she calls, she refers to as a bus, Let me talk about my boss all the time and he was driving my bus and I've said a couple of times, I'm like, oh man, I just, I feel like there's too many people on my bus. Like we're talking about like a double-decker with like an upstairs that you can go sit on the top of the bus because there's just so many different parts of me that love to come out and try and take over.

And the, like the idea that there is this only this one why is adult? It just, it doesn't feel like enough because there's so many other parts of me that caused me to like just get off the track and one part can't sort of like keep them all in their seats or encourage them always take another to sit down. But I do see glimpses of like, maybe I need at least a diet. Like maybe I need at least a couple. Like to me is that sit upfront. That like one is sort of like monitoring the needs of the children in the back and the other one's actually driving um because it's just it's a lot to manage. 

I think the barrier for me and accessing that is I don't have a lot of self-trust and I believe you all day and I will tell any other person I meet like yes there is a wise you and like you are infinitely valuable and like if there is a god it's like in each of us and we just have to bring it out all of that and yet when it comes to me on the exception, yeah and when it comes to me I just need someone else to validate it. Like I just need someone else to say like yeah, you know you're on the right record. No, that's not quite it and I've never figured out how to do it differently.

Laura: how to derive that from within.

Devon: Yeah. You trust that especially with anxiety, right? Because the anxiety says no, no, no, no, don't trust that. Because the second you start to feel safe, the second you start to trust the world, that trust your ability in the world, something bad is gonna happen. 

Laura: Yeah, the rug will be pulled out from under. 

Devon: Yeah. 

Laura: And there's also this I think a very constant pressure for very many parents and I think you're part of this group that if I could just find the right way to do that, everything will be ok. Oh man. So okay. You know, I like the bus analogy. One analogy that I like to invite people into one visualization is a kindergarten classroom at circle time where you are the teacher and you're sitting down and there's all these little personalities, all these people who want to be in charge and sometimes there's assistant teachers in the classroom too.

So I really like that. Like I think George could be a very helpful assistant teacher, you know, the part of you but can channel George a little bit. And I think, you know, so there often are the parts of ourselves that we are working with trying to figure out what their stories are, what they've given to us. Oftentimes they can get really concerned about our leadership, they can get really concerned that we're not going to be a good leader because in the past we haven't felt safe. We've been hurt in the past. 

And so sometimes bringing in partnership, like having them come, hey, come over here, I have a question for you. This little part of us is having trouble. You know, and I know you used to handle it this way. What would you do now? Okay. And how has that worked out for us? And how would we feel about handling it this other way? Can I consult with you? Were almost like consulting with these parts? 

So, you know, I'm a warm kind of fuzzy person. So the kindergarten classroom analogy works really well for me. But for some other people who are more kind of like business-minded, like the idea of a boardroom where you're the CEO you've got your board and you've got your, you know, your board of investors.

You've got other people who bring really valuable stuff. I mean, ultimately you're going to make the decisions, but you've got to hear what people's perspectives do either of those analogies. Feel comfortable to you. Are you still like your bus? 

Devon: It's no, I actually the bus wasn't mine. The bus was hers and I used it. But I think in doing this actually did the thing that we set out to do, which was helped me sort of arrive closer to myself, which it sort of feels like Goldilocks is like, well I did for a little while work. I supported a student in a kindergarten classroom and you could not pay me to go back to being a kindergarten classroom regularly. So if I had to live my life in a kindergarten classroom, I think I would be just overwhelmed and a boardroom, right? 

Like I have no buy into capitalism again with like that model just not pretty like, but as you're talking, I'm like, okay, so where did we meet in the middle or like where do I land? And I was just thinking back to sort of like being in a safe space, being in my home, like I grew up in a large, large family, so I'm one of five kids and my parents did not have a lot of good leadership skills in managing that many kids who are all really highly sensitive, high anxiety, all of that. 

And so we were, it was sort of chaotic and what it would feel like to have a really centered, really capable leaders have stepped in to help all of us get regulated and get on board and figure out what our work was, what our boundaries, where, what our role, all of that. I was like, oh I can see like a cozy little little home with a whole bunch of Children in it and just no idea what to do with themselves and what it would feel like to have a leader step in a real solid parent adult step in and sort of handle things like, okay, that feels good. 

Laura: Yeah. Okay. So then in the moment, then when you're feeling overwhelmed with your baby where you feel like, I don't know what he's trying to tell me and I feel like I'm failing him. What do you think it would be like in that moment? Kind of go inside and find yourself in that home? Do you have a sense of what that would be like? 

Devon: It's a very interesting question. So I would imagine any practice, right? That gives me that gap. That pause between my experience, the reaction right, prevents me from projecting onto him because that's so hard not to do all day. His tears immediately equate to loneliness for me because that's what crying was for me as a kid was.

I had to do it by myself and I often spend a lot of hours alone crying and so distance and loneliness and feelings are all sort of melded and so that gap gets really narrow when he's having a feeling because I've sort of connected. This pause is taking a minute to sort of process myself. That's leaving him alone in his sadness and leaving a child alone in their sadness is so unkind. It's your big is your biggest fear as a parent that you will abandon, leave him alone in the sadness that he will feel like he can't show those parts of himself to you.

Devon: Absolutely biggest fear, I always say like I just want him to be happy, which is not true because I want him to be a human and humans not just happy. They're all the things. The biggest fear is that he will not feel seen and supported when, when he's hurting, not because I am, I'm not trying my best. I know my parents tried their best. They both tried their best. They're very good intended, hardworking people and they didn't know how to do it for me and I don't know how to do it for him.

Laura: Is that true? Do you not know how to do it for him? 

Devon: I think I'm gonna change the language of that and say I don't know how to do it for him yet. 

Laura: Mm Maybe I'm figuring out how to do it for him?

Devon: Everyone kept telling me like oh you won't know what the what the hunger cry is right away but eventually you'll figure it out. And I was like how do you ever figure it out? They can't tell you you'll never figure it out. But today I heard him crying, he's with one of his grandma's and I heard him crying and I was like, oh it's past his eating window, I bet he's hungry and I ran down and I got him food right away. You can stop crying immediately. Like part of me just knew he was hungry. So I now have evidence figuring it to believe that I could figure out when he needs to have that support. 

Laura: What is the story that you would be telling yourself if you know there's a day when he's crying and you can't figure out what he needs and he's just crying or fussing. What is the story you tell yourself? Like what meaning does it hold for you?

Devon: I think. I don't know that I've sort of narrated the meaning yet. I know that it immediately floods me with like the dizzy, heart racing shakiness of like panic and like in the way that I feel like I would respond if I turned around and I saw him like falling off of a countertop. Yeah. That like, oh no, I have to grab my baby.

Like I have to, I can't let him fall and I don't, you know, we talk a lot about helicopter parenting and some version when it comes to legitimate, figuring out how to do a thing physically, But I don't want to be an emotional helicopter. I don't want to be the person just like you're incapable of handling your own feelings. So I have to do it for you or my body don't have them. 

Laura: Yeah, of course. 

Devon: My body doesn't know that yet because I wanted that and I didn't know how to ask for it and I'm afraid he won't know how to ask for it. And so I need to be watching him all the time and not missing it.

Laura: If I miss his cues, it will mean fulfilling the blanket. If I miss his cues, it will mean?

Devon: that his needs will get mad and it will hurt him and it will hurt our relationship.

Laura:  if his needs aren't met. What does that say about me as a mom?

Devon: I was gonna say, I'm not doing it right. But I know that there is no right way. 

Laura: No, no, no, but we're not. We're not going to judge what your automatic thoughts are there. There they are there. Right. I'm not doing it. Right? What does it mean if I'm not doing it right?

Devon: I'm worried that he won't be all right. 

Laura: He won't be All right. Yeah. So we're constructing the narrative, right? We're constructing the story. So sometimes when are you know, when we have a a trigger, that's what you're talking about, getting flooded your something some old narrative is being triggered, some fear, some deeply rooted fear about your worthiness or their safety and what's not always their physical safety, right? 

So you're talking about their emotional safety. It sounds like for you, one of the biggest traumas of your childhood was your own emotional safety. Feeling alone in your feelings was traumatizing for you and you don't want to pass that trauma onto your kid. You desperately want to shield and protect them from that trauma.

Devon: Yeah, 

Laura: Yeah. And you just want to know am I doing this right? If I, you know, kind of I just want to know he's going to feel safe, he just want to know he's going to feel seen and heard.

Devon: Yeah.

Laura: Yeah. And if he doesn't, what will it mean? 

Devon: I think I don't know which is a very scary and uncomfortable place for me to be and I don't like not knowing. But I also think, and I say this all the time to my husband is like, I just like, I'm always like, God, I hope he's like you, I hope he's like you. I hope he's like you. I just don't want him to be like me.

Laura: There it is. Yeah. What will it mean if he's like you.

Devon: it'll be really hard for him. I don't want that for him. 

Laura: You don't want it to be hard for him. He wants his path to be a little bit easier than you're a suspect. Yeah.

Devon: And because mine was hard, even though people tried so hard to do the right thing, they worked so hard. Mine was hard anyway, repeatedly. That's my story. Like everyone did their best and it wasn't enough for me and you know, like that I don't that's not good enough for me with mine. Like, I just love him too much for that to be his story. 

Laura: I want him to have what he needs to let me sit with ever just a second. People tried so hard with me and it was never enough. Does that mean that you are too hard? Like what conclusion have you come to about yourself in that narrative? People tried so hard, They did the best that they could and it was still so hard for me. That must mean that I am?

Devon: like, I think language that's coming into my mind is inherently flawed, but like, so is everybody in a non-sort of pejorative sense, but I think.

Laura:  there's something wrong with me.

Devon: Yeah. And what it is about, like, it's so nuanced because what it is is that there's something wrong with me that like, other people tried really hard, did their best and it still wasn't fixable.

Laura: I'm so inherently broken but I'm unfixable and it terrifies me to think that that might also be true of my son. I can't have that be my son's reality. 

Devon: Yeah. I don't I don't want that for him.

Laura:  When you look at your son, could that ever possibly be true? Like really? Like is it possible when you look at him? Was he born broken? 

Devon: No.

Laura: no. Is it true that he could ever be inherently too much or too hard? 

Devon: No, it could. And I know that about him?

Laura:  We're just talking about him right now. 

Devon: So I'm worried that he won't know that about him 

Laura: because you know that you can know that about someone else but not know. What about yourself? What is blocking you from believing that to be true of yourself? That same truth. And we just found for him what's keeping you from believing it about yourself?

Devon: I think myself, because I will just keep looking for external feedback that I didn't write that. I've done enough that I'm likable enough for acceptable and quiet enough because I'm chatty or emotional at the right level because I'm sensitive and if anyone inevitably tells me no, not right for me immediately, I'm like, oh well I did it wrong again. Instead of telling myself, okay, I wasn't the right fit for them or it wasn't what they wanted. But that doesn't mean I'm not.

Laura: right for me, right? And it's not even I did it wrong. It's that I'm wrong. 

Devon: Yeah.

Laura:  So you're getting at the heart of your internal working model of yourself. Do you know that phrase? The internal working model? 

Devon: Yeah.

Laura: That's what's built an attachment relationship. And as we're growing up, we do get our sense of self and who we are and our love ability and are worth from those interactions. And you learned early on that I have intense needs that no one around me can meet at this point in time, and it is terrifying to be a child who is entrusted to caregivers who can't meet their needs. 

And so there is no other option for a child, Like no other conclusion that they could possibly come to in those scenarios, then there must be something wrong with me, I need to change myself so that I can be more easy to care for, because if we can't think that our caregivers are incompetent, it's too dangerous to think that that conclusion is too dangerous for little ones to come to. So then what do we do? How do we not pass that narrative that internal working model onto our kids? Right? How do we make sure that they know that they're never too much or that if we can't perfectly meet their needs, that there's not some inherent flaw in them, right? Is this your big fear?

Devon: Like that, that phrase that you just said, the idea that my son could have a sense that if I am unable to meet his needs, it has nothing to do with him because zero to do with him, that he can feel confident that like I missed it. Or like it's complicated or mommy has was or whatever, whatever it is, that doesn't make him internalize.

It has something to do with him, not shouldn't have to need that, or shouldn't be needing that the freedom that I would give me as a mom to just be with my kid and to not worry so much. Like I just felt joy about a future where I don't think that I'm just like, oh no, he knows, he knows it has nothing to do with him. He knows that kid knows he knows.

Laura: How do you think kids can get that message?

Devon: I'm very verbal. So I would obviously verbalize it. I imagine that there's some ways to model, like even if it's something as simple as like okay, like, you know, it really gets my goat that we give, you know, like toddlers such a, you know, like 2, 3-year-olds such a bad rap for feeling a lot of feelings and being kind of all over the place.

And the idea that like this new narrative that's coming up of just holding space for big feelings is very appealing to me, just being like, okay, hi, I see you come here. Like I got you like, let me wrap my arms around you and be here with you and we'll figure it out together. But I'm also, I'm someone who has learned that I'm seeing in your community.

Like I keep saying in your community that it feels so particular to your specific situation, I don't want to limit myself to thinking like okay, all I need to do is be capable of giving my kid a hog and saying, I see you like how do I feel into what makes Quinn know that it's not him, that he exactly what he is, is what I need, what he needs, what is right, like how do I feel into that?

Laura: You trust him to show you exactly what he needs and you ask him, what do you need in this moment? You communicate to him hey buddy, there's gonna be times when I get it wrong and I am going to rely on you to let me know when that happened. So I can figure out exactly what you need in this moment. 

And I might not always be able to meet every one of those needs. But when I can't, I promise you we're going to work together to figure out how to get that need met of yours because you're never going to be alone in that even if it can't come from me and it might not, there will be times when your kids will go through things that we don't know, we're not equipped to help them with. But I guarantee they won't be, Your child will not be left alone in his room to deal with it on his own. You will advocate, you will help him, you'll find exactly what it is that he needs.

Devon: Do you? I think if you know that your highness person that you struggled to get your needs met and that you'll probably always have high levels of need for support. Being seen, whatever it is, How do you know that you are up to that task?

Because I would hate to lie to him. I would hate to say like we'll figure it out and we'll meet that need. And like I got like is that just down to a daily practice of cultivating that sense of I can do this, I can do this. I'm going to get up tomorrow and I'm going to figure it out again tomorrow because my kid is worth it. 

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. I mean and it's you know, part of this, all of this, like you cannot give what you do not have, right? So we, we hear this as moms all the time. You cannot give what you do not have. And you cannot teach your child to have self-compassion. You cannot teach your child to have unwavering self-acceptance. 

You cannot teach your child to have an unconditional positive regard for themselves. If you don't have those things for yourself, it always starts with you. It always starts from within that deep in our knowledge of I was never too much. Yeah, I had people in my caregivers who didn't know how to help me. But that was not my problem. I the world wasn't my world wasn't ready for me. You know, this was having that conversation and this is the thing, this is where brain science comes in your brain for how is it? Okay to ask how old you are?

Devon: Of course, thank you for not knowing. It's fun to be sort of like, you know, like a mystery. 35.

Laura: 35. Okay, so for the past 34 a half years, your brain has been wired like neurons have been firing in a habitual pattern and the reason why you can't believe it to be true of yourself is because your brains never fired in that way before and it feels awkward and uncomfortable and it feels like a lie right now that I could be worthy of compassion and respect exactly as I am, that there's nothing wrong with me. I've never been inherently flawed.

'm not inherently flawed and I'm not broken. Now, that thought feels untrue, simply because it's you've never thought it before or you haven't thought it with enough consistency to make it feel comfortable in your brain and it feels unbelievable. And so part of this too though is having you can't jump from, you know, I'm inherently flawed to I'm exactly how I, you know exactly what I need to be like.

That's a big jump, a big leap, but you have to kind of walk up a ladder up a staircase from, you know, you can't just jump from the bottom stair all the way to the top stair, right, so you gotta work your way up to like, I'm figuring out how to accept myself. I'm learning that there are parts of me that I've cut off. You start to lower their, I'm learning that there are parts of me that I'm worried about, there's parts of me that I got the idea, we're not okay, and I'm learning how to be okay with those parts, just gentle little reframes and that's how you start. 

Like the analogy, I like we have these neural grooves, I don't know if you've ever seen a comic of a person in their office, like pacing around in a circle and they have they've worn, they pay so much that they've worn a…

Devon: Dread

Laura: Dread, like a trench into the floor. So you've been treading, you've been have you have this neural groove, and, you know, as soon as you start thinking something different, you start varying your path and it gets shallower and shallower, but every time you get close to a thought that's close to that one, you get sucked down into it. And so part of this work is saying hope so, I just thought that, yeah, we used to think that now we're thinking this, you know, but that's the kind of the clinical way of doing this.

But oftentimes what it really comes down to is, you know, he's baby is crying, your that panic comes up, that panic of I cannot doom him to a life of feeling broken and not enough. And then in that moment you offer yourself compassion, wisdom, kindness and you say the very things that were never said to you as a child and you say them to yourself when you were a kid. What did you need to hear in those moments? What did you need to? You know.

Devon: I don't even it's funny because I always thought that the language part was the piece that was missing. But so this behavior pattern that I had was to get into some form of conflict, which is funny because now I do conflict for a living. I get into some form of conflict and because connection was so crucial to me, I would immediately get flooded with feeling and start to cry. And that often caused an anger or discomfort reaction in my home. 

And so I would run up to my room and I would shut the door and I would sit. I just remember like my body will forever be in that felt sense of leaning back against that door, holding it shut as sort of like uh okay, you can't get to me. But this other part of me underneath was going, oh please, someone come and try to open the store. Someone come try and like, you know, like I know my poor parents, I didn't know, I know that they didn't know and I know that they thought that they would say the wrong thing or make it worse or like they couldn't they didn't get that in their own life. 

So they also had doors that were shot that weren't being open. But I honestly don't even know if anyone even had to say anything. I honestly think if someone had just tried to open the door and come in and not when I tried to push away and say like no, no, no, I want to be alone, be like okay, I hear you. I'm just going to sit down on the other side of the door down and wait until you're ready to be with someone. 

Like some amount of bearing witness being present. That was all I needed and like that would have been enough. And so it's funny to me that the thought never occurred to me that just like sitting with Quinn while he's feeling a feeling like that's enough. It's probably enough. 

Laura: Yeah, that's beautiful. It's enough. You're enough. Less is often more. Have you ever done a little bit of a like an inner child-like moment there where you've come and been the one who taps on the door and says to be hard, can I come in? 

Devon: No, I haven't. And I wonder why that that never occurred to me because I've tried other things, but I haven't done that before. I have sort of seen her sitting in a similar position just in an empty space. And every time I see that I go over and I picked her up and I hold her every single time. It's my natural inclination just to walk over and pick her up and hold her. 

Laura: Yeah, I would at the door and the next time, you know, we're wrapping up here. But I would just, you know, when we have these moments of just kind of the imagery of it inviting yourself to hold that imagery and then allow your older self you currently because here's the thing, all of those times where our needs weren't met as Children, we're parents now we can do that for ourselves and our inner Children don't know that it's not happening in the moment.

They don't know, this is all happening, you know, in the there living kind of in the unconscious brain where there is no timeline, it's a loop. It's all concurrent. They don't know. And so this is what re parenting is. So in that moment where, you know, little Devon is braced against the wall, closing everybody, help adjust, praying, thinking like if someone just opened the door right now that I know they loved me. That's the sense I got there that I had. 

No, I'm not too much that they can handle me. And then along comes beautiful kind loving to heaven and taps on the door and says, we are I know you're hurting. Can I come in and play it out in your mind? No, don't talk to me, okay, I hear you. I'm just going to sit right here. I'm just gonna be right here. Let me know when you're ready.

Yeah and these I mean so everybody listening, we all have these moments where we were parented in a way where we felt not seen not heard, not valued, not and you know, understood in our home and we can do that for ourselves now. And when we do that though, here's the thing is that you know Devon there will become a time when your son is older and he has some big feelings and he runs off and he storms off and he slams the door and he shuts it and it's going to take everything you can to not pull it open and force yourself upon him in that moment. It's coming, it will be there before you know it because it'll be too with all of its big feelings and they'll be three even bigger feelings, it's going to be beautiful and in that moment because you will have done this work where your little one is not panicked behind that door, wondering, is anybody going to come?

Is anyone going to love me that fear of yours? Of making sure your son knows without a shadow of a doubt, that will never be too much, that he is not broken, that he's whole and wonderful and loved exactly as he is. You'll be able to go into that moment with conscious awareness. Your little one little Devon will be inside freaking out thinking like go to him, you've got to let him know and you'll be able to say yes honey. I know I'm right here with you. I've got I've got this, okay, I've got this, you're safe, he's safe.

He's not in your home, that's not happening to him right now. You know, that's not happening to him right now. That's not what's going to happen. And I'm going to trust him to tell me what he needs. So I'm going to go in and if he says he wants to be alone, I'm going to let him be alone and I'm going to stay right close. I'm going to make sure he knows I'm right here with him. I'm going to trust him because he's not you and I've got you you're well taken care of and he's well taken care of too. And we're all going to be okay. Yeah, okay. 

Devon: I'm gonna stay here. I'll just sit here nodding yeah as you were talking or sort of seeing this new vision because postpartum just makes your vision so fearful all the time where I'm just like sitting with him while he's playing and instead of the constant like is he okay? Is he healthy? Is he happy? Is he comfortable? Is he getting enough shifted two? What is he now? What is he learning now about himself?

I wonder if he's deciding on a new path for himself or like it was this learning space, this idea that instead of me always looking for the problem or the deficit in him, it's looking for the opportunity for him to keep growing and learning new things because I'm also able to keep learning and crying and new is a new invitation. So like even that like that's I don't generally get to have.

Laura: I mean those moments to where you get to sit and watch them play and nothing's wrong, allow yourself to have that. This is another piece that we didn't, I feel like we didn't get to and we have to wrap up, but when our identity our enough nous is all wrapped up in how we do, it feels like we've hung every single thing on this one thing we put all of our eggs into, If I can do this mothering thing, right, then I'm going to be okay. And there's work to do probably to uncouple some of those things because they're, you know, the reality is this is an uncomfortable reality that there are kids will have work to do. 

They will come out of our childhood with misunderstandings, miscommunications between us, and work to do despite our best efforts and intentions. It's there, that's the reality. And luckily our kids are growing up with people who wear that's modeled for them, where they will see us taking parenting classes, they'll see us working with the parenting coach, they'll see us doing that in our work, they'll see us going to therapy and they'll know like, oh well this is part of being a mom, that's part of being a dad, you know, this is the reality is is that I've got stuff to work on and I know how to do that because I've seen it my whole life growing up, it won't be the big thing, even though they'll have work to do, it won't be the big thing, the work won't be scary because they'll know that's just part of being a grown-up.

Devon: It'll just be like Russian. 

Laura: Yeah, this is just what we do, we do it because that's what we do.

Laura: Yeah, we take care of our minds, we take care of our body, is we take care of our relationships. 

Devon: Yeah, that's a good new goal, I'll go there. 

Laura: Yeah, I mean this is the thing, you know, like we can't double rapper kids, they will, their stuff will happen that they will have ups and downs and what's beautiful about it though is that we will develop a relationships that is resilient, that can handle those ups and downs, you know, and we always get to grow and change and learn.

Devon: And if the relationship is resilient, there'll be room for that.

Laura: There will be so much room for it. It's expansive. Okay, well Devon I really appreciate you being so open and honest with us all. I really, really appreciate it. 

Devon: I really appreciate the opportunity to do this. I knew when you mentioned it to me that it would be beneficial and that you just something about your work speaks to me and speaks to my parenting in a way that's beneficial and you gotta fight for those nuggets where you find them. Don't take no for an answer, just go get it.

Laura: Yeah, I so agree. Well, it's been just a pure joy to have you here with us. Thank you. 

Devon: Thank you, appreciate it.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review. That really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out and definitely go follow me on Instagram @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes, look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus, I share a lot of other really great resources there too.

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this.

Episode 60: Self-Kindness, Growth & Boundaries with Ida of To Every Mom (Motherhood Series No. 3)

We are going to have another amazing episode this week for the Motherhood Series on The Balanced Parent Podcast! I’m so excited and if you will notice from the introduction, I had a little fangirling moment because the guest that I interviewed for this episode is a TikTok sensation whom I love and adore.

Every time I feel like I am failing as a mom or I feel low at the moment, I go to her Instagram or TikTok and watch her videos. And every time I do, I am always reminded that I, too, am worthy of the kindness & grace I offer to my kids. And THAT is what we are going to tackle this week!

So, join me and Ida who is a single mom to a beautiful girl. She does so much amazing content on Instagram (@toeverymom) on how to be kind to yourself and how to hold healthy boundaries with others. Here is an overview of our conversation:

• How to cultivate self-kindness and grace

• How to set internal boundaries

• What to do to raise our morale

To get more content on this topic, subscribe to Ida's YouTube Channel To Every Mom and follow her on Tiktok @toeverymom. She also has a new children's book series coming out, so we will get to hear about that too!

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TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello, everybody! This is Dr. Laura Froyen in and today on the balance parent podcast, my heart is beating because I've got somebody I guessed to share with you that I love and adore and I'm so excited to introduce you to her. So her name is Ida, her handle on Instagram is to every mom and she just delivers so much amazing content on how to be so kind to yourself, how to hold really firm boundaries with others and with your own brain and I love her and so we're going to talk about how you're doing better than you think you are and how to be really, really just kind to yourself today and I think that this is going to be a boost that all of us need. 

So Ida thank you for being here with me. Thanks for putting up with my like a fan girl giggles. I'm so excited. So everybody, when I am feeling low and like I'm a bad mom, I go to her page on Instagram and I watched her reels. This is so like I feel like I have this little secret and I'm sharing her with you. So I thank you for coming here and putting up with my little fan girl this right now, I'm so excited to have you Welcome to the show. Will you tell us more about yourself and who you are and what you do? 

Ida: Of course. Oh my gosh, what an introduction. Sorry, who are they talking about you? 

Laura: It’s you, You're amazing. 

Ida: Thank you so much. I am so honored, so humbled. So all of it to even be on your podcast and I'm so grateful. Oh my gosh, what do I even say? So I'm happy to be here because I've always wanted a space where I could talk to moms. I've always wanted to do that. And it seems that some dads kind of chat to me to online, but my name is Ida, I'm a single mama to one beautiful, beautiful chocolate girl and I could just eat her up.

And I have gone through a lot of stuff, a lot of things as we all have. And those things have brought about the lessons that I love to share through comedy, through heartfelt messages to moms and even through some, like some beer statements about where we need to stand when it comes to a loving ourselves and taken up for ourselves.

And that's what I do online. I'm also an entrepreneur. I just started my own business in January because I was working 12 hours, 10 to 12 hours a day during the pandemic, as a single mom with a baby at home and I knew I wanted to do something else and I didn't know what it was, but being on Tiktok in Instagram has helped me. Thank you, thank you so much. Yeah.

Laura: that moment of like realizing what is happening right now is not sustainable and it's not going to work and I need to find a different path, like at that moment in my life where life handed me a path that I was not expecting, you know, I had a half mapped out and car accident, you know, while I was pregnant just couldn't, that path was no longer an option. So I had to take a different path and I love that you're in this place where you're taking a different path. That was a little bit about being there. I mean, you tell us what you wanted to tell you that.

Ida: I would love to hear about your story. Oh my gosh, we're probably going to have to chat off line if that's okay, I get so inspired. And yeah, I have just like anyone else. Whenever stress gets into my body and I'm no scientist. But when stress gets into your body, it can cause all kinds of health issues. And my job is very stressful. And I was beginning to deal with health issues because of it. And it's not that my job is bad.

It's just that my body couldn't take it any longer. And when the pandemic hit, that's when I started on Tiktok and I just wanted to be there because Gary V said, get there. I didn't have a business in mind. I was writing a children's book, but I didn't even know whether that was going to be anything and also some children's music and that's to come soon. 

But Hi, I'm Susie with the Z and you won't believe what happened this week. Hi there. I'm idle with an eye and I'm the author of the Susie with the Z mystery series, come and join us on this incredible adventure as Susie and her mom discover what caused her cold. Susie with the Z mystery series is created to encourage and empower young people to ask the big questions because we know when little ones ask big questions. It leads only to one thing case solved. Find Susan's handwashing song on Youtube and the case of the mysterious cold on amazon. 

Ida: And then I jumped on Tiktok and just started doing mom content. But the job got harder and harder. So I had to kind of package my life into one hour of me doing something for me. And that was my TikToks and spending time with my community because the community is everything. I love my babies on both platforms and beyond also YouTube.

But you know, that was one of the major things that really catapulted me into now doing my own thing for myself in my own terms. But what I went through to kind of learn the stuff that I know has just been less challenges my and I'm sure he won't mind this because we have a great communication, but my ex husband no longer wanted to be married. 

For various reasons of his own and we won't judge his reasons. I'm totally fine now and I felt shocked and I wanted to maintain the relationship as best as I could and it was not going to work, but found out shortly that I was pregnant. Yes. And you know, in my late 30's and I knew there was no way that I was going to let this baby go. And I knew that that even if I was not going to be with him, I was going to do all I could to be on my own. We were divorced shortly after, you know, a couple of years later, we managed to get divorced. 

I did try to fight. I say in quotations by waiting and seeing if maybe he'd change his mind. There was nothing no indication that he would. But I did wait. This might be a shock for him if he ever hears this. I did wait. And then finally I just thought, no, I want to get a divorce. And so I filed for divorce and I've never shared this very publicly before. But I think it's important to share. And then I was pregnant on my own, you know, delivering on my own, taking care of a newborn on my own, doing it all on my own. 

And I had to learn to give myself grace, which is something I'm still working towards, but also rise up in my power. Those two, it's like binary where you're doing something like betting on yourself, but you're also saying it's okay if I mess it up. You know.

Laura: that's what, that's the balance. That this is what it's all of my show balanced fair. And because it's all about all of these dualities, all of these things. It's about the both and yeah, the both and not either or it's yes, I can be compassionate and kind and loving to myself and believe in myself and hold myself accountable and be responsible to myself, into my family. It's both. 

Ida: And yes, it is. Oh my gosh, please put that on a mug or a shirt. I will wear it.

Laura: Uh Yeah, I mean, but I think that that's what I love. The content that you create so much, especially your mama, a character you created its self love, but also fierce commitment to your like in a kind, gentle way, but also in a fierce way and I just I love that. Absolutely. So how do we go about cultivating that kind of, that balance between? I'm going to be so kind to myself and I'm going to strive, how do you cultivate grace?

Ida: Yeah,

Laura: in a space that's hard on mom's?

Ida: I think it's a combination of things. So first of all, we are all brand new at life. All of us were only born once and we're all doing this for the first time and the last time, you know, boom, boom, boom, Well, well, I mean, depending on what you believe in, but let's just say this version of life, we're doing it once in my opinion. And even if we do it five times in your opinion, let's just say, this is your first go around, We're still new at it. We don't know what we're doing. And so we got to be patient with ourselves. 

And that also helps me be patient with my daughter when I remember she's new at this, and I'm not always getting that right y'all. I don't want to be the person to say, let's be patient with kids. Let me tell you, I fail at that daily multiple times a day. Same. Yet still, I still work at it. So I think that it's just that understanding that you're new at it, but you won't let that be an excuse to not be great, the greatest you can be at it. 

So yes, this is my first time encountering being a mom, a single mom, you know, but I can learn, I can google, I can ask questions, I can still do my part, We can always still do our part and if you're part fails or if you are lazy one day, don't beat yourself up because you need yourself to get back up the next day.

Laura: And I think it's so hard because the internal voice that we all have is one that we learned growing up and was handed to us by our parents and was likely handed to them by their parents, right? And that voice we think and we use it with our kids too, so we use it with ourselves and we learn best by berating, we learn best, but you know, we will change our behavior if we are critical. 

You know, if we point out what we're doing wrong and these patterns, I think that we have to change and we have to change inside first if we're going to change them outside with our kids, like, you know what I mean? So what are some things then that you say to yourself in those moments?

Ida: in the moments where I'm feeling low and I'm kind of berating myself, what do I say? 

Laura: How do you talk yourself? 

Ida: Sometimes I just let myself do it, but not for long. Sometimes I let myself do it like that wasn't right ida because sometimes I need to get it out And yes, it's gonna leave a scar. Yes, it may leave a wound, but at least I have a time limit on it now. You know, it's like even if it's 10 seconds, it's like now we're done now.

Laura: We're done with boundary with it. There's about boundaries, you're so good at boundaries. I love the way you talk about boundaries.

Ida: you didn't have them growing up. I think that's why I have them now in my forties. 

Laura: Oh no, you have a couple of really great little videos on boundaries on other people's business. You know, like if you were in my business, who's taking care of your business or what are some of the other things that I loved your what your like and other people's opinions to their underwear? You don't belong in my house around my floor.

Ida: unless there's a reason why you're here. I love it.

Laura:  I mean, and I think that's an internal boundary. I call that an internal boundary or a psychological boundary where we are firm with ourselves around what we're going to let in, that other people's opinions of our parenting really don't matter as long as we're sure of what we're doing and we're connected to our kid, you know?

Ida: Yeah. Something I told myself one day because I used to struggle and crumble under what everyone thought of me and I still have to work with that I do but crumble to the ground. And I think it's when I was filming a Mama Aji video and I was like, you know Ida, the next person has an opinion about you go ahead and take it on, but send them one of your bills like send them the water bill because if they're going to invest in your home, then they definitely have a say in how you do things. 

And I was like, I could never send them. My water bill was like, well Ida, you're the only one here handling the business. So if you're handling the business then your say is all that matters. Yeah. And then I was like, okay, well then that's true. So I'm talking to myself, you know about it because so I gave myself the ultimatum, send them a bill and tell them come on and bring all your opinions and don't forget to pay these bills because you know, that's how you get a say.

Laura: I love that. Oh my gosh, no, I mean and this applies like, so you and I were out there in the public space, we're putting our selves out there, but this applies to your mother in law who has an opinion about what you're doing to the lady in the grocery store who's giving you the side eye while your kids throwing a tantrum over not getting a sucker. You know, like it applies, oh my gosh. Unless they're paying rent or paying the bills in your life and the, you know, the paying the emotional load to, you know.

Ida: helping you with the kids, washing the dishes. If they're making any investments, then they've got a little bit of a say. 

Laura: Yeah, they've got room for an opinion. They considered, but if they're not right, if they're not.

Ida: if there's not one investment that they're making to make your life better, then they don't have a say. 

Laura: Yeah, that's good. I think that this applies to what we allow in. So when we're scrolling, we come across the accounts where that look perfect, beautifully curated. We start doing this to ourselves, right? We start letting their view what they think. You know what they're showing means something about us. So if I'm going to be a good mom, I have to do it that way. If I'm going to be a yes, got to do it that way. And it's the same thing as we have to set that boundary of like, no, that's their life, here's my life. They can have it that way. And yeah, I love talking about boundaries so much.

Ida: I used to do that. Like I wanted to be a good mom and I was new and so I went through all the videos, all the blogs, all of everything and all these moms were cleaning and all of that stuff. That's why I have my parody of my morning routine. I don't know if you've seen that one, that's one of my favorite videos because I'm showing you what a morning routine really looks like, you know, and I'll send it to you after this.

But, but the thing is that I used to think I needed to be like them. And we went out on vacation once. My daughter was six months old and my daughter was a high needs or still is high needs person. She needs love, touch attention and you know, I get with it. But at the same time when I need to eat and I noticed I never ate at restaurants, we never ate period. I would put an Ipad in front of her and there was this mother, we were in Hilton head in south Carolina. 

She looked over at me and she just, she scowled, you know, and that her son was like looking back at Paw Patrol and she says, do not look at that. And I just thought she is judging me from head to toe, but does not know that this is the one moment I have to do something for me, No grace, no mercy. She's not in my home. She doesn't know my daughter doesn't sleep at night. Really. She doesn't know how exhausted I am. 

She doesn't know I'm struggling financially because my husband is no longer here. She has no clue that this is my one moment for joy. So I'm gonna go ahead and let her have what she has and I'm going to thank her for what she just taught me because I'm moving on and letting her watch all all the Paw Patrol.

Laura: Oh my gosh! Yeah. Okay. I love this. I think it's so important for us to because it's easy. We live in a judgmental world. We live in a place that were, you know, we are mothering, we look at what people are doing and we judge, we layer on the should the woods, you know, all of those things you do, we all do it. We do. And I just love that you talk to yourself because I talk to myself all the time you do. Oh yeah, totally. I mean I talked back to myself too. 

I have the little sub personalities that I chat with. You know, they're like, hello, little critical and I know come closer. You don't like what just happened. Yes. I know you think I'm terrible and I love you and you know, all of those things, I'm super kind to my inner parts because some of them are quite nasty and I think just like kids who are bullying like or even like the mean moms that are out there in places, usually those people who are mean or judging usually have something going on with them, but they need a little bit of kindness, a little bit of love. So I'm super kind to my, my inner parts. 

Ida: Yeah.

Laura: I love how good you were at recognizing this person does not know my story. They do not know what's going on with me with my family and they maybe need this moment of judgment for themselves and so they can have that. But that doesn't have to be mine. I don't have to take that on. Oh God, it's beautiful and that's what we're getting. You know? So often I think people think about boundaries as in like this is the boundary I'm going to set with other people, but really boundaries are about us. 

Ida: Yeah, completely About us. It's like a territory, the United States, America has boundaries to protect America. It's all about the country. Every country has their boundaries to protect themselves. And it's not about, hey, we hate you. It's about this is what we need to do for us in our, in our government, in our world. 

Laura: Yeah. I love it. I love talking about boundaries. 

Ida: Me too. 

Laura: Okay. And so then what are some things like when it's hard and it is hard at times? What are some things that moms can do to kind of raise morale? Because I think that's really what I go to you for is when it's hard, I go for some kindness. I go for a little bit of tough love and like a lot of humor. Honestly, you make me laugh a lot. Thank you. Yeah. And those three things I feel like are so powerful kindness, a little bit of tough love and humor. Those work really well for me. How do we raise morale in our own homes? 

Ida: How do we, you know, I think that mom's kind of get out of touch with the things that make them happy and then the things they enjoy and I think even as adults period people do that. So it's a good idea to have a running list of things you love and if you start adding things like if you fall in love all of a sudden with a flower that you didn't love before write that down. I think it's good to have a running list of things you enjoy. 

So firstly, if your content creator, you can always create content from that, but secondly, you can, you can always think, okay on Wednesday nights I do one or two of those things or twice a week, I do one or two of those things and you start penciling it in. I think that that is one of the number one ways to boost morale is to have fun. 

A lady told me that when she was counseling me and my ex husband on our marriage because you guys don't need to come and chat to us right now. You need to go have fun that will mend a lot of pain, you know, and I stick with that advice even as a single person that you know, and I need to do that more with my daughter. Not I think about it when things are tough, we need to just probably go have some fun. 

Laura: Yeah, I prescribe yesterday as to my clients who are in a tough space with their kids. Do you know what I guess? Yeah, I mean. So I have a blog post. I'll put the link in the show notes. But yeah, so oftentimes when you're stuck in a rut and our families where things are low, you're so right, We need enjoyment. We need fun. And so yesterday can be really, really fun for kids. You put boundaries on it. 

Like the amount of money you're going to spend, you know, the amount of screen time that goes well in your family, you know how much sugar you're willing to let the kids, you know, but you go in with the intention of, we're just going to follow the kids leave and whatever they want to do whatever sounds fun to them, We're going to do our very best to say yes to it within bounds. It's so much fun.

And most of the time I have the parents that I work with not tell their kids about it, so it's usually don't even know that it's happening. They just get this kind of this experience of their parents saying yes to them and parents making it really fun to. So yesterday's are a beautiful way to bring out.

Ida: I'm going to use that. I need to do that. She loves being loved, like I told you she's very in touch with what she wants and she wants it. You know.

Laura: I think though, like what you're saying though is that we need to be saying yes to ourselves a little bit more to be on the lookout for ways that we can bring enjoyment. 

Ida: And it needs to be intentional. It needs to be scheduled in because over time because you start being your resented your resenting something. You don't know what you're just like, oh and your kids can feel that you're irritable and so you're lashing out and then you go to bed mad and you're like, why was I mad because I got the leftover food the time, the energy from my husband. 

You know, if you're married or you stopped the love, everything is getting the leftovers and it's like, you don't matter. No one wants to live in this world feel like they don't matter. And you know, I talk about this a lot mothers, you are part of your family. So when you say you put your family first, do you mean you you have to mean you you're part of that family that you put first? That means  30 minutes a night. I'm having my screen time watching my favorite show like Brigid in. Okay husband. Okay wife. 

Okay. You know, whatever your relationship looks like and even to yourself, single mom. And then you also need to say and I'm going to eat something I like or drink something I like. I love t who I'm a tea person and make sure that you do that every time you feel like you need to do it, schedule it in a please mama's. 

Laura: Yeah, thank you for that. Thank you for that permission and that encouragement. So being intentional and prioritizing it. And I think you're so right. This idea that oh my gosh! We do. We settle for the leftovers in our lives and no one wants to live a life of leftovers. 

Ida: No one

Laura: no wonder we feel exhausted and resentful when that's the case. 

Ida: You would never treat your husband or let's just say your spouse because I know everyone has a different type of or your significant other. You never treat your significant other the way you treat yourself sometimes and you'd never treat your Children that way or your mother in law. You know if the kids need new shoes, you buy them. If you need new shoes, what do you do keep your weight? Yeah. 

And I know we all have financial priorities and even time priorities but if you just pencil it in, if you say one time a month you're going to buy something for yourself, you know, even if it's one time every two months, as long as it's in my sister, as long as it's in, put it in.

Laura:  100%, I think it's so important and we're teaching our kids what it means to be parents to all along the way and and in doing so. We are also giving them permission to do it themselves if they choose to become parents were walking advertisements. One of my previous guests said that that we're walking advertisements for adulthood. Do we want them to think that it is a life of sacrifice and drudgery? No, that's not what I want my kids to think, motherhood. 

Ida: Not at all. And that's what I think my daughter thinks it is at this moment I'm getting better at it. Maybe I'll master by the time she's 27 you know, I'm just joking, but you know, I'm giving myself time to do the best I can and she's going to have things that she's going to work through even if I got everything right, she going to. But there was something that was going to say because when you just said what you said, I'm like, yes, that's so true. Can you say that last bit? You said just now?

Laura:  I don't know what I said. I know something low aren't we know, it always happens. Something about where a walking advertisement for adulthood and I don't want to like think it's drudgery. So I'd like to add to that as well. And that is, my mom taught me that parenthood with sacrifice and I used to see her just only do stuff for us. So I grew up thinking things are done for me. She didn't do it forever. She kind of stopped at a point and that was a shock to my system. I was like, she's so selfish now, she's going to listen to this and she's going to like what I did and you know what she was doing.

She started standing up for herself and I didn't understand what that was. It didn't make sense to me because she never communicated that to me and I became I was a little bit selfish and spoiled and I thought the world revolved around me. So I say this as well, Mom's, you don't want them to think it's a drudgery, but also you want them to value you, you want your husband or spouse to value you and therefore you tell them on Wednesdays, It's my day. 

I have to do something for me. Okay, little ones, Mommy's queen at 8:30 I got to go be queen. Okay. And they will understand, okay my mom took time for herself. That means they get older and they will tell their boyfriends in college. I'm sorry Tuesday explained a love you to bits, you know the girlfriend same thing, I'm sorry, I'm hanging out with the boys tonight. Love you to pieces. Like they will start understanding that same self love. 

Laura: But so I so agree. And I think that we can even with young kids we can hold these boundaries. So when my kids got to be about three every morning before I would take them, you know we would, you know they had to go to daycare or something for part of the day. I would have what we called in our house, Mommy's quiet moment where they were playing and I was drinking tea and reading or journaling and they were not allowed to talk to me. 

And I mean it was when they were little it was five minutes. We started out with just five minutes, five minutes on the timer of you not talking to me, We pause the timer if they interrupted me, okay, once you go back to playing, I'm going to start the timer again and then we built up so I would get 20 or 30 minutes of no one talking to me. That's a boundary that is really important for me for my energy. But quiet moment. 

I mean and having had that in place when the pandemic happened and all the kids came home and I was able to say, okay girls, we're going to go back to Mommy's quiet moment now. Right now we're going to have you know, half an hour. We no one talks to me and I did something I did not clean. I did not do any of the house stuff. Just something for myself and that's so important. 

Ida: You literally just taught them self love and doing that.

Laura: Yes, I agree so much. Yeah. And they know it naturally, you know something when my oldest, she's eight now, but when she was a year and a half, we had just gotten her out of the bathtub and they had her laid out, you know, getting dried off and getting her diaper on on the changing table and she looked up at me and she said, I love mommy, I love daddy, I love me. 

You know, she's a year and a half. She knew like I love mama, I love daddy, I love me. She just like, that's like, I just never want her to lose that and I know I have to show that that, that I love me and that means if you climbing on my body doesn't feel comfortable, I'm going to say no thank you to that. You know, you're in my face talking to me, I'm going to say, honey, take a step back, I want to be able to hear you and I can't pay attention when you're that close. You know, I have a sensory seeking daughter who's on me a lot. Yeah, it's ok. Oh my gosh, that is in the process. You teach them self, love, you teach it by modeling it and having it for yourself.

Ida: and confidence too. like, I mean, I think if I were a teenager that and my mom is still some great things in me, some really good things that I'm taking on to my daughter and had I known the things you're talking about right now, it would have looked like a friend saying, hey, let's just go, come on, I really want you to come with me. And I would have said no, I'm actually tired tonight and it being okay in high school, you know, or in middle school it being okay for me to say no, I don't feel like doing that. You know.

Laura: I think about that a lot. My mom always was willing to be the bad guy for my friends so that I could take care of myself and not have to set that kind of abrupt about boundary. She's always like, you know, we had a signal that I could wave to her where she could say no, Laura, you're not allowed to do that where Laura get off the phone. Like we had this signal. So that, 

Ida: that is awesome. 

Laura: It was awesome. It was so awesome. But I think about like my daughters, they are going to need that. They're going to be able to I know that they will, I know they'll be able to say like, okay, I'm done talking by.

Ida: Yes.

Laura:  Okay.

Ida:  That is exciting. It is exciting living in a world where our daughters and our sons can say no, but still be loving at the same time. That is a dream. 

Laura: Oh, it is the dream. Yes. Oh, love it. Oh my gosh! I feel like that's the perfect end to a wonderful dreamy episode. Thank you so much idea for coming on and I'm just sharing your brilliance with us and with the world. I just adore, adore what you're putting out into the world. I'm so grateful for you.

Ida: Me too. I'm so glad I met you and I'm so thankful that you had me on by y'all.

Episode 59: Finding Your Purpose & Identity as a Parent with Ashley Lyon

For this week's episode in The Balanced Parent Podcast, we are going to talk about transitioning to parenthood and how in shifting to becoming a parent, our identity changes quite a lot. To help me with this important conversation, I brought in a friend and colleague, Ashley Lyon.

She is a DONA-certified postpartum doula, a yoga teacher, and the founder of Bloom Mama. Becoming a mom changed her life and it began her self-discovery journey. She realized that there is a major lack of resources and places of community for new moms so she used everything that she has learned to create the Bloom Mama Platform where she can help other moms who desire personal development just as much as they desire to grow as a mom.

Here is an overview of what we talked about:

• Expectations on what the transition to motherhood looks like

• Some challenges with new moms making themselves a priority

• Shame and guilt that comes with being a new mom

• Finding our identity as a mom and as a parent

Follow her on Instagram @ashleylyon___ and don't forget to visit her website www.bloommamadoula.com for more resources.

She also has a group program coming out on the first of June! If you want to have an energetic reset as a Mom:

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TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go! 

Laura: Hello everybody, welcome to this next episode of the Balance Parent Podcast. I'm so happy to have you here with me today and we're going to be talking about a topic that is really important to me and I think it's one that most parents have experienced. We're going to be talking about the transition to parenthood and how in moving and shifting into becoming a parent, our identity shifts quite a lot. And so to help me with this conversation.

I'm having a friend and colleague on who is going to help us understand how we can transition into parenthood become firmly rooted in our new identity and clarify our purpose and our passions so that we can live kind of full fulfilling lives all in the midst of doing this parenting thing. So please welcome to the show, Ashley Lyon, she's a coach for new moms who are struggling to figure out who they are in the midst of this new parenting journey that they're on. Hi Ashley, thanks for coming.

Ashley: Yeah, Thank you for  having me.

Laura: Well? For sure. Yes, please tell us just a little bit more about who you are and what you do and then we'll jump right in. 

Ashley: Yeah, so again, my name's Ashley Lion and I coach new moms so they can kind of find clarity around their purpose after they have a child. So a little about me, I had my son three years ago and I struggled a lot, I had postpartum depression and anxiety and I really felt like I was just going in motions and not really feeling inspiration or I was just kind of doing what I should be doing and just doing the steps of motherhood and about a year and a half into my motherhood journey.

I was kind of driving one day and I kind of just snapped in my head, it was just like, oh my gosh, I cannot keep living like this, I can't just feel dull inside, I can't have no passion and I can't feel like I didn't feel like I had a personal identity, I felt like I was a mom and that's all I was doing. So that kind of transitioned me into talking to other moms and I realized that has happened to many moms, so they have really struggled with, you know, mental health, even if it wasn't as extreme as postpartum depression or anxiety, it was something like the hormone changes made them not feel like themselves. 

So I kind of just started this journey of rediscovering myself, I went and got Ricky done, which I would recommend for moms. And I found out that all of my chakras were very slow or completely closed off and that just kind of sparked something in me that I just, that's how I felt. I felt like I had no energy physically or spiritually.

Laura: I totally resonate with what you're saying, that you know, that kind of going through the motions, doing all the things but not being fully present. And I don't know about for you, our listeners. But for me, motherhood was something I was really looking forward to from the time I was a child myself, I wanted to be a mom and then to move into parent, I didn't have it be really different than what I thought it was going to be. 

You know, really just a lot more grind and a lot less joy then I really thought it was going to be. And so I think lots of us have experience exactly what we're talking about here. And so it sounds to me like you started figuring it out, figuring out what do I need to do to feel better in this?

Ashley: Yeah. So I kind of, just at that point I felt so lost that I was just like, okay, you know, I'm just going to start making baby steps, I'm just going to trust the signs that are coming to me, trust my intuition and just start moving forward, start doing something. So I actually went on a retreat, a little weekend retreat and there was a coach there and she had us do some journaling exercises and I just randomly wrote down like look up postpartum doula. So I did and I felt that was a sign and I got my doula certification.

I learned so much about the physical aspects of becoming an emotional aspects of becoming a mom and it just all made sense that this is the path I need to start taking to helping moms really stop feeling so alone when they have those thoughts of like, oh my gosh, I thought I was just supposed to be in love, I thought this was going to be natural and it's just not a lot of times. So I just really started taking baby steps and following any signs that I needed to do. 

Laura: That's awesome. I feel like most people don't know this about me, but I was a postpartum doula for a couple of years.

Ashley: I don't think I even knew that.

Laura:  it's not a part of my, I didn't do it for very long, it was something that I did right after I left academia and I got certified and did you know worked with a couple of families and I realized as I was working with the family is what I was really doing was parent coaching, like that's what I was doing and so that I just stopped doing the postpartum apart and just kept doing the coaching part.

Ashley: that's kind of where I am too, I am so grateful for you know, getting my certification, I learned so much but it kind of just made me realize that a lot of times women lose their identity along the way. So I want to help with that. 

Laura: Can we talk a little bit about what we mean by that? Because I know that when I became a mom, the word that's captures how I felt was untethered, like I just felt like I was not no longer connected or grounded in anything that who I was before was gone and I wasn't really sure who I am now. I knew like I'm this mom person and like and solely responsible in this huge, amazing way for a human. But what does that really mean? And you talk about identity and all transitions, all life transitions carry with them? An identity shift.

Ashley: Yeah.

Laura: But the transition to motherhood, there's very little support from making navigating that identity shape. 

Ashley: I totally agree. So your DNA changes after you have a baby, it physically changes your hormones change. You have all these physical things happening in your body and you also have the pressure of a human is just relying on you 24/7. 

Laura: I just want to toss in here too. And so these identities and transitions that we're talking about are not just for families who have birth to, a child, who have been through the physical change of giving birth too. There's lots of different ways a child can come into a family and anyway, a child comes into a family can mark a huge transition in a parent's life. 

Laura: Yeah. And even when talking about the hormones, there are studies that, you know, that look at women who had a surrogate women who didn't give birth, or even men who are adopting Children and they actually have hormone changes to and their oxytocin, you know, like that the same thing that happens to a mom when she gives birth, that happens to other parents to even if they didn't physically give birth.

So it definitely is like everyone, yeah, through these identity changes when they have a child, we're bring a child into their home. But a major thing I think with identity is that a lot of people don't talk about is the grief that comes with bringing Children into their house. There is a whole process of grieving your old life, not knowing what your new life is, but just being sad about not being able to go to brunch with you know your girlfriends at a whim.

Laura: there is a never being alone again. That was like this is the thing that I had to grieve so much as a new mom that I will never be alone again. 

Ashley: Yeah, you literally have to knock, lock the doors and even when you do that, you probably have kids knocking and banging.

Laura: or even there at school or at a friend's house. They're still in my mind and in my heart, you know.

Ashley: Yeah. So there's a hole through this identity shift. There's a whole grieving process. But you also have value shifts. Your values aren't the same. I think this is the first thing you need to look at when you are feeling that kind of doll feeling of not knowing, not being who you used to be and not knowing who you are now is kind of taking a deep dive and learning about your values again. So this means do I value my confidence? All those little values that you might not even know that you need you kind of need to take a second and do a deep dive and figure it out.

Laura: So not to put you on the spot here right now. But are there any for listeners if listener wanted to do a little bit of journaling on this topic, are there some questions that you might ask yourself or think on? 

Ashley: Yeah, I think a major thing to think about is writing a few things, writing down what before baby let you up. So what really inspired you and let you up before baby. And then what inspires you now and then kind of looking at that and then also what you're good at. So what inspires you? What used to inspire you and what you're good at and kind of meshing those together to figure out what you need to do and kind of brainstorming ideas of looking at this list of things that I love and that inspire me and what I can do now that incorporate those, you can kind of form this new identity that comes from your old self, your new self and just inspiration in life. 

Laura: Great, thank you for that. What other think parts of kind of as you move forward and construct this new identity? What are some of the challenges that mom's face?

Ashley: Yeah, So I work with the chakra system my lot in my program. And so there when you have a baby, I find that there's a ton of blocks, so there's a ton of energetic blocks in your system. So for example, the throat chakra moms so often look on the internet or look to somebody else for answers. Especially now. So which is totally useless thing and a bad thing. That's you listeners. You're here. Yeah. But I mean comparison, I guess. 

Laura: No, I don't really, I totally I'm just joking. I hope my listeners another I'm just messing around a little bit. Yeah, but there is there's this intense fear in new motherhood and honestly, that's my kids age. It doesn't go away. This sense of am I doing it right? How do I figure out if I'm doing it right? Let me look at all of these options. Look at all of these other examples of how other people are doing it and judge whether I'm doing it right myself. It's a constant yeah, in self reflection to be apparent in this modern age. But go ahead. Sorry. 

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. So I think that also puts a block in your throat chakra because you aren't using your own voice, your own intuition. Obviously medically like look for experts, but I always love to help moms practice following their own intuition about things getting quiet and kind of seeing what it feels like to do one thing or another and then follow your gut. So yeah, I kind of forget what question.

Laura: Let's talk a little bit about intuition. Let's follow our intuition here. But this is something I've been talking about with some friends and in some of my community is quite a lot lately. The this idea that what does it mean to follow your intuition and how especially as women, you know, you and I are both identify as women, but especially as women, we have been conditioned to not listen to our intuition our whole lives growing up and now suddenly we're moms and we're supposed to magically know how to tune in and listen.

So like that's a given. I think that that's just patriarchy, patriarchy does not want women listening to themselves because we're incredibly wise and powerful when we do your scary, you know, and so we've spent our lives learning to tune out our internal messages in queues and prioritize those of others. And so now as a mom, you're inviting us to get quiet to slow down and turn within. How how do we do that?

How do we start to trust ourselves again when we've always hard growing up, you know, you really want that kiss from grandma, you know, you need to eat more broccoli, you're not full, you know, we just this constant barrage of don't listen to yourself and now we need to listen to ourselves. How do we learn to do?

Ashley: Well, It isn't overnight and it does take practice, but it has, I think personally and my journey and from some clients I've helped, it takes journaling, it takes actually stopping in, tuning in within and learning your values, learning actually what you want and not, you know, hearing something from your mother in law and just going with it. 

So I guess it also takes a lot of courage. A lot of times women do have intuition they just might not listen to it, you know, So I think it takes a lot of courage to do that to actually and boundaries a lot of is coming up right now, so I'm just like, no go there. Yeah, courage definitely because you have to stand up for yourself and what you believe, especially with your, your new life in your Children and like I said.

Setting boundaries, so not allowing other people to make your decisions and when somebody tells you to do something to taking a second and being like what I do this on my own or am I just doing it because I should do it? You know? So really, I guess how you would learn is you just have to notice you have to realize this is not making me feel good, this is not what I want to do and then just trust that.

Laura: Yeah, there's almost like a little tingly sense, you know that sometimes when I talk to parents, I'm like you've got a little bit of a spidey sense and you just need to start tuning into it. Just listen to it just a little bit just on even small things, the more you do, you'll be more and more open to its wisdom and to what it's saying to you and yeah, I mean so when you're saying this, it is courageous but in order to be able to do this well, what I'm hearing you say is that you have to be really, really clear on your values, on your priorities, on what you want, your motherhood to look like. 

What you you know, the priorities and goals and values you have for your family and for your Children as they age and having that clarity. You allow you to be firmly rooted and grounded and make decisions that are conscious as opposed to decisions that are kind of swayed by outside. 

Ashley: Exactly. And really also make decisions for yourself and your own individual life. Because I think that is a lot of times that moms do feel or why moms do feel disconnected is because they are only focusing on their parenting in their relationship life. So making sure you have clear values and wants and needs personally to is so important to help moms feel like themselves again. 

Laura: Oh my gosh! Yes, Ashley, Yes, this is at the very core of even just why I named the podcast, what I named it because we so often we focus on parenting, we focus on relationships. But what about the person who is the constant in all of those places to be well balanced. We have to have a good focus on ourselves too.

Ashley: And also not even to mention, I just think it's so crazy how a person is expected to have a baby go on maternity leave, your whole life changes and then go back to work and be the same person and enjoy the same things. 

Laura: Like nothing happened. I know, nothing happens.

Ashley: So like that, I think also brings up, I think having a child brings up this huge transitional phase, that it's a huge opportunity to really figure out what you want to do in life. And a lot of people are scared to do to make shifts because they have a new baby, financially, all of the, you know, going down into your root chakra, all of the really grounding things that you need to do and have when you have a newborn. But they also parents figure out that, oh my gosh, this isn't really what likes me up anymore. It's not aligned with my core values anymore. So, what do I do now, You know?

Laura: Oh, my gosh, Yes, Yeah. And it's funny, you know, we're kind of talking about new moms, but I went through a very similar transitional period as I became a mom of two as well. So, you know, this transition and I think it's important to recognize too that oftentimes new parenthood is sandwiched between other transitions. 

So often times people are becoming new parents pretty soon after they become a couple become a married, a wife or husband or they've made job changes. So my second child came into our family right after my husband and I had graduated from grad school, gotten really intense stressful jobs in academia and I had a car accident kind of all within one calendar year. It's a lot of transitions. And as I came out on the other side, like I did not care about hardly anything that I cared about before other than my family. 

Ashley: Yeah

Laura: And loving talking about parenting and child development. Those were the two constants and that's what led me to quit my job as a professor. I just couldn't get excited about my work anymore. And I was like, this is not, I can't do this. And so luckily I was in a position. 

Ashley: Yeah, exactly. But that's, I think coaches are so important because they help you realize that well usually you kind of know if you're going to hire a coach, you kind of know there's like a something missing, there's work to do, I have to do and then you hire a coach and then you figure out, you know, the steps you need to take in order to live the life that you want to live because doing it alone. It's almost, and having a young child is almost, you know, it's just like you're just paused.

Laura: It's not natural. Like that's not what it supposed to happen for new families. New families are not supposed to be alone. You know, I think about my dear cousin who's like a sister to me transitioned into parenthood during this pandemic and she has not been able to be mothered in the way that I wanted to mother her. 

You know, like at all, we're not supposed to do this alone. And you know, normally holistically and evolutionarily speaking, we would become mothers within a family context where we're all in tight knit groups of sisters and cousins and aunts and grandma is all together and the transition I think would have been quite a bit smoother for most of us had we had that.

Ashley: 100% yeah,

Laura: it's our birthright to have those things. And so just it's the fact is that now we live in a world where we have to be pay for it and that village sense and that's part of what coaching can be sometimes as part of calling in your village.

Ashley: Exactly, I love that.

Laura: Okay, so actually I feel like this was a really fun conversation. Is there just any last little nuggets that you for new moms or dads, parents who are listening to this and I really still struggling and feeling like they can't catch their breath and they don't know who they are and they don't just feels so there's no end in sight. Do you have anything for them?

Ashley: Yes. So take any step? One little step towards yourself, whether that is doing the journaling exercises that we said, which is figuring out what you want before figuring out what like you up now and then figuring out things to incorporate that into your life, start making tiny steps and then also if there are no signs or if any type of like inspiration around you, take it and go with it, this doesn't have to be a huge, like I quit my 9 to 5 job in a week, you know, it could be like getting your yoga certification or you know like taking a class that really makes you excited, just start really incorporating the things that light you up and help you feel inspired and happy. So yeah, I think that is just something that people are just in the thick of it, can do, just start incorporating things daily that really make you enjoy life more. 

Laura: Yeah. Yeah, wonderful. And I just want, I just had that your life is not a waiting room, you know, this is this is it, this is it right now, there's no reason why you can't find moments of joy and pleasure and enjoyment in the midst of a very hard time. It is hard, you know, new parenthood is hard but there's space An opportunity for pause and stillness and joy and fun all in there too.

Ashley: 100%. yeah. You just have to find that balance. You have to that has to be a that can be one of your values having balance within your life. So definitely important. 

Laura: Beautiful, thank you so much Ashley, this was a really great conversation. Yeah, absolutely. And thanks for supporting moms this way, I wish I had had someone in my life and at that point in time I didn't have to kind of create it from scratch, you know, from scratch for myself. So really.

Ashley: Use the tools that are given to you 

Laura: As their support there. You're not alone. Beautiful. Thank you Ashley so much.

Ashley: Thank you so much. 

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review. That really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out and definitely go follow me on Instagram @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes, look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus, I share a lot of other really great resources there too.

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this.

Episode 58: Re-Mothering Ourselves with Amelia Mora Mars (Motherhood Series No. 1)

Happy (Belated) Mother's Day! To be honest, one day is not enough to celebrate our motherhood. We made a lot of sacrifices in this journey but we also made great moments with our family and kids. Some days are challenging but there are also days that are a blessing. And I am happy to see your growth. Thank you so much for trusting me to be a part of your journey.

So, for the month of May, I want to dedicate the upcoming episodes of The Balanced Parent Podcast to our motherhood. In this series, we will be focusing on re-mothering ourselves, finding our purpose and identity as a parent, and learning to be kind to ourselves. We deserved to be loved just as how we give love to our kids and family. That love must also come from within.

And so for the first episode, we are going to dive into the powerful work of reparenting and re-mothering ourselves and learning how to set healthy, respectful, compassionate boundaries. I'm so excited to have a partner in this conversation, my wonderful guest, who's going to be sharing all of her expertise with us.

Join me and Amelia Mora Mars, who is a mom to six daughters and four sons (Phew!), a psychotherapist and mom coach to women raised by emotionally unavailable mothers as we tackle the following:

• Signs that you may need to re-mother yourself, and how to do it

• What it takes to be a connected mom, and how this will make you a better mom

• How to set boundaries with your kids

• The intuitive and healing journey through self-compassion

Follow her on Facebook and visit her website www.momconnections.com to get more resources on this work. If you want to be part of her community, join her MomConnections Re-Mothering Tribe on Facebook.

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TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello everybody welcome back to another episode of the balance parent podcast. We are going to be talking today about the powerful work of re parenting, re-mothering ourselves and learning how to set healthy, respectful, compassionate boundaries. And I'm so excited to have a partner in this conversation, my wonderful guest who's going to be sharing all of your expertise with us. So please welcome Amelia Mora Mars to the show. I'm so happy to have you. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do? 

Amelia: Well thank you so much for the invitation or I really love, I'm very passionate about this topic. So I am a mother of 10. Always say that's my first role, my most important job. 

Laura: Ho! Can we all just have a moment of silence for 10?

Amelia: So I have six daughters and four sons and they range from the ages of 3015 and I am a psychotherapist and Westlake Village, California. And I coach women who were raised by emotionally unavailable moms. And my joy is to help them find their lives back together and fall in love with themselves. 

Laura: Oh my gosh, that's what we're all about here. Understanding that this hard job of parenting is a beautiful opportunity to find ourselves, connect with ourselves, love ourselves more fully as we love our Children. Uh, I love it. I'm so excited to talk with you about this. Okay, so tell me a little bit about re-mothering and what some signs are that you might need to re-mother yourself. And also is it something that, you know, most of my listeners are women, but men can need re-mothering too. Right?

Amelia: Yes, absolutely. So most women, they start to notice probably really knew all along that maybe mom wasn't emotionally available for them. And it could be for a lot of different reasons. It could be that she was just a busy woman and or a single mother and she just wasn't physically present there. He could be a woman who had mental illness. And that's really the case of my life, had a mom with mental illness and a furious, furious temper. And so I was very much afraid of her. And so I learned to take care of myself and my siblings and two keep the environment as calm as possible and as trigger free as possible to, you know, calmer for others. It was maybe she had a physical woman and she was there, there's so much focus on herself or a child, another child that maybe had special needs or something. 

Or maybe she had a significant other or spouse that she was trying to keep calm. That's so much focus our energy on him. But these Children go feeling as a mom wasn't a horrible and so some of the science is just feeling lost and lonely. Some women described feeling like they have a hole in their heart. They feel they have difficulty making decisions because if I wasn't mentored and coached or modeled it, how would I know someone have anger or resentment and that shows up a level of sadness and really noticing that they've been alone for a lot of their lives and wanting more and not knowing how often times just not not knowing how to connect. So having a lack of boundaries, you know, learning to be people pleasers to be aware of other people's needs.

I had one woman tell me that when her mother came home from work here, she's an elementary school child and she would make her mom or Marty, you know, that's a job that's inappropriate for a child. The children will do what they need to do to feel loved. And a lot of times that's pouring outward and having a life where they're rescuing, pouring out and not receiving as much. 

So there comes awareness. And again, they might have had it all along. They might be ready to acknowledge that, Gosh, what I've been missing most of my life is me, I've been most of my life from my life because it's been other centered and centered on a people 

Laura: other centered and centered on other people. So then how do we go about looking within and finding our center within ourselves? 

Amelia: Well, I think it starts with that awareness and being honest and saying, you know, enough is enough. You know, part of my passion and my crusade and my advocacy is I refuse to allow people allow women to go through this alone. We need women who fight for us. And I know when I went through this process is like wanting to know well who are the safe people in the world. 

I know who the unsafe people are aware of the state people in the world. So my program I call it, Mom's breaking the cycle starts with the attachment and becoming aware of their attachment style or connection style because a lot of times makes sense. We could be so hard on ourselves. But when you look at what happened to you, course you might be just cleanly and insecure. I'm afraid that someone's going to leave.

Laura: Of course.

Amelia: You might be the opposite, might be that person who has difficulty trusting difficulty with a fraction and saying I love you because that wasn't there for you. So having that understanding that yes, it's okay that you're here and of course you're here one this together and then that's where the self love and compassion and start, because I feel like self love is the bomb that heals the soul. 

We need to just sit in that place because we've been giving and giving and giving and oftentimes have these critical voices to ourselves and so giving ourselves space in a sacred place. Just finally say, you know what? This is my tongue, this is my time to get my heart, and part of that process is having healthy boundaries, those healthy boundaries, it's going to protect us to keep the bad out the good in. 

Laura: Yeah, okay, let's talk a little bit about boundaries, because I think we all are in the place of figuring out what our boundaries are, and I really liked how you just said that keep the bad out and the good in. So tell me a little bit about how boundaries fit in with this work.

Amelia: Yeah. Well, the fact that people pleasing a lot of times, we just say yes or acquiesce, or do we perform, they were so afraid that someone's gonna love that leave us, right? That sense of abandonment, You've been abandoned already, right? It's terrifying. So, I have an image of the house and I say that this is houses has unhealthy boundaries and inside the house, I have words like beer insecurity abuse, silence all those words where we feel like we can't step up and really feed ourselves and if that's your norm living in a home where you have to be silenced and careful and walking on eggshells and you know, you're afraid, then it's like the negatives inside the house and the bad on the outside or their goods on the outside and it's hard to reach.

It's hard to reach that if you have the opposite, if you have a home where there's love and security and a sense of belonging and joy and you can relax and just feel like you're seen and soothed and insecure. Like Dr. Daniel Siegel talks about those people can feel the difference and they might recognize someone that's unsafe approaching them because they've had an environment of safety and parents who fight for them and advocate for them. 

But if you don't have that, one of my sayings I say is you could be dancing with the devil with your dress is on fire, but you might be talking yourself out of it. Well, he seems nice. Well, he he's charming. Well maybe I'm wrong. You talk yourself experiences when the signs of them, they're all along. You don't know, especially if memories protects us. 

Laura: Yeah. Especially too, if those things feel familiar, I think often we go for what feels familiar which leads us to repeat and perpetuate patterns, the patterns that were used to, right? 

Amelia: Absolutely. That norm. That's not normal. 

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. But what we think is normal, what our experience tells us is that this is what love feels like. This is what a family feels like. This is what a home feels like. And so we go out into the world and unconsciously recreate patterns. Okay, Yeah. And so then how does the healing start to happen? But like now we're becoming a bear. We're noticing some patterns. Were noticing that were quite hard on ourselves.

We're noticing that it feels almost lots of the folks that I work with who are trying on self compassion, who are dabbling in self compassion. It is very hard because they feel so unworthy of it. I don't know if you experience that with the folks that you're teaching self love and compassion to.

Amelia: absolutely to say no to someone in order to say yes to ourselves is very, very uncomfortable. 

Laura: Yeah. 

Amelia: But like every practice and every practice of two better ourselves in whether it's exercise or the way we eat or the way we treat ourselves, it's just continually doing it even when it's uncomfortable. You know, it's just that repetitive and that reminders of ourselves and I think that's why being in a tribe and having that support and the work you do and the work that I do, it's like we need that to provide a sense of safety and to encourage and celebrate and have these fans and to admit when we struggled and we didn't do it, we didn't quite do it today. 

Laura: Yeah, I think so too. I think we all need the support of a community who is committed to doing this work and committed to walking that path with compassion and empathy. You know that we are not repeating patterns are perpetuating patterns of shame and blame and guilt and criticism that we received growing up with ourselves as we look to make changes.

It's always so interesting that many parents who come to me who are looking to make changes in their parenting use the same language with themselves, that they're trying to get out of their parenting vocabulary with themselves inside. You know, it's the same. They don't want to criticize their kids. They don't want to punish their kids that they criticize and punish themselves, you know? 

Amelia: Yeah. All the time. 

Laura: Yeah. Okay. So then that speaks to me about re mothering, that's what re mothering is to me cultivating a wise in her mother who meets me with compassion, who meets me with unconditional love and acceptance that I deserved from the moment I was born, that we all come out of the room deserving, right? That love, that compassion, that acceptance, kindness, grace and cultivating within me that wise in our mother. And then is that how you see it? This is the vision that I have inside myself.

Amelia:  Absolutely right up to that love and generosity that we don't really give up. Three internal. 

Laura: Yeah. So I think a question that probably people who are listening to this are thinking right now is okay. But how what does that sound like, what does it look like in the moment with my kids when I'm about to lose it when I'm about to yell or when I feel run down, overwhelmed, stressed out. How do I actually do this in the moment, in the midst of parenting? 

Amelia: So if you imagine that you're at the beach and it's just gorgeous day and the water is perfect breeze. Fabulous. You're with the people that you evolve. Your basket is full of delicious food and great beverages and music. It's on, it's just beautiful. And then all of a sudden you hear the shark, the jaws music in the background, right? All of a sudden your experience has been hyperactive and it's no longer safe. And that's kind of like what triggers happened to us. So that's why it's so important for us in that moment to again go back to what I said about the attachment style. 

Of course, in this way this is what just happened to me. But I don't need to act out on it. There's people that I loved. And I always think in terms of beginning with the end in mind and I focused on that a lot. You know when I was pregnant because I was so so afraid of being a mom. Always thought that being a mom was my great, this fear. But then I realized not doing something because of fear is my greatest fear. I mean throughout my pregnancy, when women are just so so excited, I was so, so fearful.

And I would really use my mind to dream about and to focus on what is it that I wanted? What was it that I didn't receive? And what is it that I want to become his mom and have that so seared in my mind that when those moments of triggers would happen, I could rely on that. And so it is not easy, right? We have to do things over and over again. Right? And that's why we need this tribe to reinforce us and to love us because we will lose it. And then those again are those opportunities to forgive ourselves, to love ourselves and that were going on. 

And I always start every morning saying to myself, how can I grow today? How can I go today? I want my day to start with an intention to focus on looking at the big picture. How do I want to grow today? I don't jump out of bed and forget about those things because I recognize that with the intention, it's really our intention and what we want out of the day and out of our lives. And you know, I told women that every woman, every mother I'll say stands on the bridge between the past and the future, every one of us.

And it's only in the present that we change our future generations. So it's the present, like focusing on the past and we could draw information from that, but it's in the present. And those little opportunities with our Children provide those, those moments of change. And as my Children got older, I would share more and more my story. So they understood where I was coming from and you know, because we're all on that place would be better mothers and were understandable. 

Laura: Yeah. Something that I really like that you've been saying all along in this in our chat together is that this idea that it makes sense that this would be our initial reaction, that this would be the way we would take something. That this would be the way we react to whatever our kids are doing. It makes sense. Of course, I really like that. Of course, that's how it would be. Of course, that's how you think about it. Of course, I really like that. That feels so good and compassionate. 

I say those things to myself all the time when I discover a reactive moment or an opportunity where I can be kind to myself. This is how I think about my parenting mistakes. I don't know if you do this. I think about every time I screw up as an opportunity to practice being kind to myself and this is not just for parenting, this is for everything. Anytime an attachment system is activated, your attachment like coding or patterns are activated. It makes sense that you would react this way. It makes sense.

You would think about it this way. It makes sense that that's the story you would tell yourself. And we're going to choose a different story. We're going to choose to think a different way. We're going to choose to see it a different way. And I really love how you're talking about having that intention as a guide, this kind of the outcome, the future vision being your guide in the choosing process. Right. 

Amelia: Right. Absolutely. 

Laura: Yeah.

Amelia: Yeah. I'm thinking about this mentally that I have that my twins were in kindergarten and they played with this little girl and this little girl was sick and she just wasn't getting better. And the parents discovered that she had leukemia. And I remember hearing that and intellectually I felt really sad like, oh my goodness, this is so sad, this must be so horrible. I didn't feel it, I didn't feel it.

And that scared me as a young mom, I felt so disconnected to my emotions and I remember realizing that being so disconnected to my emotions as a child worked for me. You know, it's that way of what I thought, you know of protecting myself. But here I am a grown adult and a mother and I was afraid to connect to those motions because that meant I would really feel, that means I could really grieve and I could really cry and I could really be sad. But the flip side of it, if I didn't, he's that would stay like this.

I felt like this part of my heart was dormant, like it fell asleep and I needed to wake it up because it scared me and I wanted to be emotionally present. And that's just was for me one of those moments of realization of, oh my goodness, this is what has happened to me. Uh this is where I went silent and quiet and I need to make a choice. You need to make a choice for me. I need to make a place for my Children and I'm scared because I'm afraid of feeling but I'm also afraid of not feeling and living in this place.

Laura:  Thank you for sharing that. I think we've probably all had those moments of awareness and awakening of the work that's ahead of us and a little bit of trepidation as we move into that path. And I think our kids are so good at giving us those opportunities. You know the way the beautiful ways they trigger us, the ways that they activate within us, all of our old scripts and wounds. They're so good at it. There are beautiful partners in this, right? 

Amelia: And I love the way that you see that, because I see them as little nears right there reflecting what they see their experience in this. And if their little faces, the little faces still fear or any kind of negative emotion, it reflects back to us like, oh my goodness, this is an opportunity to change.

Laura: Yeah, an opportunity to change. An opportunity for awareness for noticing. And it always starts right with noticing awareness and sometimes that awareness comes afterwards, you know? It comes a few minutes, a few hours, even a couple of days afterwards, like, Oh, oh yeah, I was triggered there. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I was in a story there. 

Oh yeah, that felt really familiar. Oh yeah, that really reminded me of that time with my family, you know? And then the more and more you practice that noticing awareness, you get closer and closer to noticing it in the moment and having those moments of awareness in the midst of the feeling that takes time and practice. I really love how you talk about that. That's so important to just practice practice practice.

Amelia: Right? Because instead of hating those moments of oh my gosh I just completely unraveled and I hate myself and I hate that this just happened. It's that opportunity of growth, that opportunity to fall leaning into it and it's our friend in a weird way. 

Laura: Yeah, no I so agree with you and I think it's hard to do this heavy work that our Children call us to and they hold up that mirror. But it's good work. It's healing work and it doesn't just heal us, it heals our lineage, right? So this is where intergenerational healing happens, you know? 

Amelia: Yeah. 

Laura: So my mom was fairly emotionally unavailable to me particularly around hard negative emotions. She was okay with softer negative emotions some of the time, you know like crying in tears sometimes she was okay with that. But most of the time it was don't have those feelings. Those feelings aren't safe for good or worth anything. 

That doesn't they're unhelpful. It's unhelpful to feel your feelings. She grew up in a home with a wonderful dad but who also drank and when he drank was scary and angry, you know? And of course it makes sense that she was the way that she was, that she raised me, the way that she raised me, it makes complete sense. You know? 

And it makes sense that when my daughters do the things that I did that got me in trouble or got just me dismissed that it makes me want to shut them down. It makes sense. It just makes sense. And then there's the choosing of something new, something different, right? And that's what we're all doing here. Oh wow. Well, thank you for this conversation. Was there anything else that was on your heart that you want to want the parents listening to this to know? 

Amelia: You know, I was just thinking too about brought my years. I hated my mother, I hated her. You know because I had just developed so much angering and fear around her. But I remember wanting to want to forgive, I didn't want to but I wanted to want to. And it was the oddest thing because shortly after that there was a knock on my door. I was pregnant with my second daughter. And my father wasn't one of domestic violence, but this day he did he should gotten up after the night before and he jumped her and pinned her down and hurt her and she was coming to my house looking for a place to stay. I remember looking at her at the door and I have to let her in.

This is my opportunity to let her in. And because I was in my not quite my second trimester, I was still wearing bigger clothes, She could fit everything I had and because I was expecting a second child and now had a bed so that not just a crude, but now I had a bed, so I had a bed, I had clothes that everything to give her and my mom has always been an apple and and when I would see her nap, she wouldn't have on the couch and I would watch her and I could see her body straining from the hurt, from the, from the pain of getting beat up. 

And I had these voices of stories that she would tell me that just came into my mind like I was hit for breakfast, lunch and dinner if I brought food to my father and the food was cold, I get hit for that. And all these things came to my mind. I was just so easy in that moment to forgive her because growing up she would demand to me, why can't you forgive me? Why can't do? And it was a question of her ass. She never actually demanded it So fast forward.

Now I'm 40 and I'm, there's a knock on my door and it's my mother and she comes in and she looks really nervous and standing next to me, is that daughter that I was pregnant with? My mom asked could you ask her to leave? And she says to me, I was at a retreat this weekend and the nun said to me, I had to ask you for forgiveness. So maybe it never occurred to her because it was so easy for her to forgive her past. Probably never occurred to her. So she asked me why was I so muted, why was I mean here? And because I had done my work, I said to her because you did what was done to you? 

And she said, that's right, that's right. That was her moment. Of course, course I what was done to me? And it was such a beautiful moment because she was asking me for forgiveness. But I felt as though I was giving her an opportunity to forgive herself. And so, you know, sometimes we don't have that yet or are mothers have passed on, but there is a possibility of something so beautiful where we can let them off the hook and let ourselves off the hook, and we can just sit with that forgiveness and love in a place of love. And that's what happened with me.

Laura: oh, so beautifully. But thank you for sharing that story with us. Oh my gosh! And it's making me think about all the people who are listening right now who think it's never going to happen. I'm never going to have that conversation with my parent maybe because they've passed away by now, or just because they're not capable of that level of self reflection. I do think that forgiveness is not for the person, you're forgiving forgiveness is for you, so that you don't have to be burdened with it anymore.

But I'm so grateful that you were able to have that interaction with your mom. I'm so grateful that you were able to have that. And I hope that everybody listening is able to unburden themselves and forgive themselves and forgive and let go of what they need to thank you for sharing that. Okay, wow, this was a great conversation. I still appreciate you sharing so openly with us. Thank you so much for being here with us and sharing your wisdom and your heart. I really appreciate it. 

Amelia: Thank you. Laura is such a great partnership to work with you wherever you are in the world, to be able to partner, ensure this love and passion for me. And it's really enjoying the privilege.

Laura: I'm so glad to have wonderful colleagues and partners, all of my listening community. Just, we're also lucky to be alive in this time and doing this work together. I so appreciate it.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review. That really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out and definitely go follow me on Instagram @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes, look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus, I share a lot of other really great resources there too.

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this.

Bonus: Live Coaching: Inner Child & Reparenting Work With a Challenging Child

For this episode, I will be doing a live coaching with a member of my Balancing U Community. One of the perks of being a member of this community is that members will have an opportunity to come on the podcast where they share their experiences and get free coaching with me! If you are interested in joining us and getting access to the other benefits (like weekly Office Hours!), just send me an email at laura@laurafroyen.com and I'll get you the details!
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In this Live Coaching episode, I had the opportunity to work with a wonderful mom of three kids. It is my hope that by being able to listen in to our discussion as we work through some triggers she has with her 3-year old, you will see what the Inner Work of Conscious Parenting can look like in action.

If you want to learn more, follow me on Instagram @laurafroyenphd.

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TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello everybody Welcome to another episode of The Balance Parent Podcast. I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and I'm talking today with one of the members of my Balancing U membership community as a perk of being in my community, you get to come on the podcast and get free coaching with me and so I'm really excited to have this wonderful mom. She has a three year old, a two year old and a baby who is just shy of becoming earth side and so we're going to be talking today a little bit about her relationship with her three year old, how she's kind of triggered in that relationship.

Her reactivity and she's doing a lot of great, beautiful inner healing work that is still in progress and she's wondering, okay, so while I'm doing this and I'm healing work, while I'm kind of doing that work, how do I respond in the moment because the triggers are still happening and kind of how do I do this inner work as I'm also doing this external work of parenting. So Hi, welcome to the show, why don't you tell us a little bit about your situation yourself, your family, and we'll dig right into your relationship with your three year old. 

Guest: Hey, okay, well I am uh you know, stay at home mom for almost 3.5 and two year old and I'm 37 weeks pregnant and I don't live around family. Nobody is close by. My husband tends to work a lot. So I really am pretty intensely involved in being a almost solo parents sometimes. Um, so my, you know, my my three year old and my two year old are exactly opposite personalities and my three year old is a very smart, cognitive creative, very emotionally attuned girl. 

She is just a little bit more challenging for me and has always sort of been my child that triggers me more. My two year old is a little bit more laid back, she's more, I guess type B and she kind of goes with the flow a little bit more, a little more forgiving. Um, so you know, I'm home, I'm home all day with them. My three year old, I just started her with like a a couple hours in the morning to play groups. That gives me a little bit of space. But for the most part it's been a little bit intense, especially since Covid started with very few or no playdates and really no way of getting a break. 

Laura: It's hard, isn't it, when we've got one, you know, one of our kids is kind of full on intense, sensitive, it makes the experience of attempting to hold a respectful space with them very intense, you know, like exhausting, right? 

Guest: Yeah. You know, I've been reading up since day one on all this, you know, follow your blogs and General Lansbury and you know, I love this stuff and I have all the books and I'm trying to do all this in her work. But when it comes down practically speaking to my day to day, it's it's just so, so difficult to implement.

Laura: Yeah, it is, it's not easy. If it was easy, everybody would be doing it and we'd probably have a way better society, right? But it's not easy because we're working against, you know, generations of trauma and conditioning that we're undoing. And it is hard to move against the stream of the kind of the tide that's pulling us into keeping us in the same path that we've always been in. 

I want to commend you on the work that you're doing to enact inter generational change in your family to be that inflection point where your family changes direction. That is a powerful place to be in, but it can be hard and it can be lonely. You were telling me before we started to that it's kind of been this way with your daughter from the moment she was born, but she was born kind of a difficult temperament baby. She was born with, you know, as difficult to soothe she had some call it going on and it's kind of just been this way. 

Guest: Yeah. You know, being I wasn't new to newborn care, but having a colicky newborn reflux baby as your first is kind of traumatic. 

Laura: I know I had one too.

Guest: Didn't quite realize what it really meant when your day in and day out with it. And I remember one time I just, I hired a babysitter through an agency and I just told her nose at the beginning of the winter, I'm like, just take her outside, I just can't listen to the screaming anymore. So all these intentions I had for her even as a young baby, you know the ways I wanted to interact the way I wanted to even sleep, train her all these things and ideas that I had in my head that I really value went out the window, just totally went out the window.

I was so reactive in a way that was kind of surprised me how strong because you're so raw without sleep and postpartum and that I wouldn't venture to say that I was had postpartum depression or anxiety, it wasn't quite there, but it was teetering because you just stripped away of all your defenses when you're a parent and all the stuff that you thought you had put together because I've been through therapy before. This is not new to me that I thought I kind of had some of this stuff together. You just get stripped of a lot of your defenses.

Laura: and then really raw time. It is.

Guest: Yeah. And you realize, I guess it's kind of in a way it's good to strip away the Band aid to see what you're left with. But it's also really difficult to model. I am very reactive to her from the beginning. I mean, her cry is just, you know, pulled at my heart in a way that I never experienced before.

Laura: Absolutely. And they do, they pull out you and they're supposed to write this is what keeps babies and humans safe and growing as a as a species. But at the same time, we also have this idea that we are supposed to know how to soothe our babies, that we are supposed to be able to sue their babies.

And when you have a baby who is difficult to soothe who has a difficult temperament and also has, you know, some of the colic or reflux stuff going on, That feedback loop that builds confidence in new parents is broken and we become almost every interaction with our baby confirms the bias that we have, that we're screwing it up, but we don't know what we're doing, that we're all of those negative thoughts that we might have about ourselves. It's a very vulnerable thing to have a baby that is difficult to soothe.

Guest: Yeah. And it really just continued into her top three years. You know, when I think about how I react to her now, it's not all that different. She's very, very sensitive child and she goes from 0 to 100 quickly, just like she did when she was a baby. It's just a little bit different now. And I guess I kind of had an expectation that she would grow out of certain things where she would, you know, I think of her as three going on 30 so she is very mature. 

So sometimes I put a little bit too much adult regulation, emotional regulation onto her and I'm like why can't you just you know, stop screaming. The problem is not such a big deal. So, you know, I noticed with her talk back to me, that's what bothers me the most is when she plays or when she talks back to me and I hear myself through her through her voice. I think it's a bother what makes me realize how far gone I am sometimes and it scares me okay. 

Laura: So I want to pull out a few things there that I think lots of parents experience. So one when we have a child who seems more mature maybe has like a bigger vocabulary in verbal expression skills. It can be so easy to have higher expectations of their emotional regulation and their impulse control and all of those types of skills. And it's so important to you know in the moment remind ourselves that even though they sound like they are talking like a four or five year old that really they're still emotionally three. 

I think that that can be really hard though to do. And then the other piece that you were talking about two that just made me think about my episode that I did with an O. T. On raising sensitive and spirited kids It sounds to me so some kids are born with systems that are more sensitive and being in the world just kind of existing in the world is more taxing to their nervous systems to their regulation systems and which leads them to have a narrow window of tolerance that is just naturally more narrow and that means that things that wouldn't normally set off the average three year old do set off those three year olds and so you know I guess you probably listened to that episode but if you haven't I would definitely recommend going back and listening to it. And for anybody listening who's got one of these kids that just really feels like they are just you know losing it over everything going from 0 to 100 super intense, super sensitive.

Everything is the End of the world. Check out that Episode 34 just to see what you think and see if it might be might apply to you. I've heard from lots of people who have listened to that episode than gone and gotten and consult with an occupational therapist. The therapist roads like yes, we can help you and they're already seeing improvements. So that episode is wonderful. But the other, I mean, so the piece of this though is that how do we differentiate than when this is kind of typical three year old stuff? 

Because three being a three year old is rough. Being a three year old is a hard time. It's even harder when you have a difficult temperament because that's what I'm kind of hearing you say is that she's got this is temperaments are something that have been studied a lot and kids, it's almost like the precursors to personality traits and some kids are more difficult. 

Some kids are more intense, some kids are more sensitive. Those things don't necessarily have to be a bad thing. We just have to learn about them and flex and roll with what it is that they're doing, how they show up the kid that's kind of in front of us rather than the kid we were expecting to have.

But one of the things though that I think is so important is that when we are looking at our kid and we have all of these ideas about what a three year old is supposed to be like and they trigger us, that means we have other stuff that's kind of getting in the way of us seeing them clearly. That can block us from having an authentic connection with them. It can block us from being able to be the parent that we want to be with them. 

That you know when things are calm and to the tune, our nervous system is down regulated and we were able to be conscious and intentional, we were like, oh that's not how I want to show up, but in that moment it can be so hard, right? And that's what you're experiencing, it sounds like.

Guest: Yeah. And I've never been really good with holding my boundaries with her because she tests me so much. So I really would love to be able to hold these healthy boundaries and give her that clarity of being the leader of the parents. 

Laura: Yeah. 

Guest: And she picks up on my inconsistencies and she picks up on all this stuff. So like, you know, we had an issue recently with night waking, she had been a great sleeper up until about I don't know, five months ago and all of a sudden it became an issue and so I try to set boundaries with that, but you know when she's screaming her head off at two o'clock in the morning and she's waking up her sister. 

So I cave and there's a lot of back and you know going back and with that stuff because it's very hard to hold boundaries with the child like that, even though, you know, they need it so badly. 

Laura: Yeah, so these are times to that it's helpful to, okay, so we, you know, if the night waking are starting to happen, I've had a couple of them, okay, now we need to make a proactive plan for what's going to happen rather than in the moment trying to figure it out. 

But it is it is hard to hold boundaries and it's especially hard to hold boundaries when we are motivated by fear. Like even in just that what you were just talking about, you were afraid someone else would wake up, but you're also afraid that if I don't hold the boundary, she senses my inconsistency. So those fears there. And I was curious, we were talking before we started recording to about how she triggers some thoughts and fears in you, can you tell us a little bit about this? I asked you before if she reminds you of anybody.

Guest: Yeah, yeah, she does. This fear thing is very real to me. Whenever I look at our situation between my daughter and I and I feel like I'm failing. The first thing that pops up into my head is my, my oldest sister and my mom and to me, the failure between myself, my daughter is almost identical. Um my oldest sister also apparently triggered my mom, I think she was also a college baby from the stories I hear, she must have had some other stuff going on that they didn't really address back then, but they definitely struggled a lot from the story, the stories that my mother tells me about my oldest sister, they're all negative. 

I mean all the baby stories that I hear are all about how she was always screaming and you know, they're all kind of negative and I get the sense that she was pretty traumatized by her and very triggered by her and she actually had my second sister close in age similar to what my situation is right now. And my second older one is to be really a lot more chilled out, kind of give my mother which she needed in terms of the nurturing. She wanted the hugs and the kisses and the cuddling while my oldest sister rejected.

That is not a touchy person, very similar to my situation. My oldest is highly sensitive but doesn't want the hugs and kisses. She wants you to talk to her with attention. She just needs to love in a different way. And my second child, she just wants you to hug and kiss her and you know, everything's fine and did and that feels good as a parent to because it feels good to me to receive that and my oldest rejects that and that's hard and I just, I see this playing out the same way it did with my mom. Yeah, it's a lot of fear.

Laura: So relationships, there are absolutely patterns in families that kind of run through a family like this. Most families have them if you draw a family tree and then add in kind of symbols to represent the, the type of relationship people had, you can see them flow through a family and it's normal I think to be afraid of that. 

So there's this fear that is in the present moment, this fear of I don't want to have that same relationship with my daughter. I don't want to have that. I don't want to repeat that pattern with her. I do feel a little bit curious about how you now feel about your sister and how you remember feeling about her as a kid. I kind of want to focus in on what did you think about your sister as a kid? And what did you think about her now?

Guest: I'm kind of embarrassed to say, but I sort of reacted to her the family my mom did

Laura: when you were little when you were a kid?

Guest: Yeah, you didn't like her. Maybe even I never like yeah, she was always irritating to me as well. 

Laura: Why do you think that is what you know now from your kind of adult place? Looking back down on it? Like why do you think that is? Why do you think a kid would kind of not like their sister? 

Guest: Well, I mean I think it's a combination of her learning to receive negative attention from others as love. So she did actually do things to irritate you, Get a reaction from you. That was how she experienced love and attention. So that trickle down to her siblings as well. So she was always you know the do gooder and try and it was just a very irritating older sister to have. It was always, you know, tattle tailing on you and just not. 

She just knew how to trigger all of ours buttons actually. But for me, I mean it was probably the only thing I learned. I mean that was washing my mom reacting to her so whether whether I and my child's mind knew that it was bad or wrong, it doesn't matter because that was my world and that's how I knew to react to her when she did things, even that work that we're really kinda get. Sometimes she would do things that we're trying to help me or try to help my mom. You know, she was always trying to be helpful but she would do it in a way that would trigger you or irritate you, you didn't want to help. 

Laura: Yeah, okay, what you're saying makes so much sense. As a little kid, you're watching these interactions between your mom and your sister and you're learning okay, I cannot be that way. The way that my sister is as bad and wrong, It's getting her rejected. It's getting her punished. 

You know, it is this what she's doing is scary and bad and wrong and I can't be that way if I want to stay in my mom's good graces if I want to stay connected with my mom. And so it makes complete sense that from a child's perspective like that, that's what they would be learning. And it also makes complete sense that when you see those very behaviors, those very behaviors that were labeled bad, wrong, annoying, irritating, obnoxious when you see them and your daughter, it makes sense that there is an echo there an echo of that like this is bad, this is wrong. This needs to stop now. 

On the one part, there's this little one inside you who is like annoyed like, oh God, another sister like this, you know? And then there's another part that's like afraid for your daughter, afraid for like we have to stop this because she's going to get rejected, you know? And then there's this fear in the current moment of like, oh gosh, this pattern is repeating itself, I don't want this for my daughter, I don't want this for her and me, you know, there's all this stuff, it's very complicated. 

So I do want to know how do you feel towards the little you who didn't like her sister now as an adult? Like looking back at that little one who was kind of annoyed by her sister, who couldn't see the good and her sister at that point in time, it was kind of just reacting based on the family system that she was in. How do you feel towards that towards little you?

Guest: I mean I can only think of it in my adult mind. 

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I mean like so looking back at adult you or from your adult chair, your adult position, looking back at little you who felt negatively towards your sister. How do you feel towards that little one?

Guest:  I feel really sorry that I could even as a little girl, you know, a couple years younger than her, I couldn't be there for her. 

Laura: There's guilt there. 

Guest: Yeah. Like I couldn't I fell into the same pattern. 

Laura: Yeah. And I wonder what it would be like to as your adult self right now, cultivate a little bit of compassion for that little girl. Like what is that little girl need? The one that you were who had a hard time in her family because her sister was so difficult. Is there any part of you that's open to like validating like little you saying it makes sense that you rejected your sister and you know, it maybe wasn't right and now we're grown ups and we know that there were other options. But you were a kid and you didn't know there were other options and you were doing the best you could. What would it be like to say that too little You?

Guest: Yeah. That's like my biggest challenge right now with the work that we're doing together? Yeah. Honestly, week one, compassionate week that is will be my biggest challenge. But you're saying makes sense to me. I just can't quite get there right now. 

Laura: So let's go in a little bit too then to that little one little you who's there who's in this family system with a really difficult kid who's having a hard time and ill equipped parents, parents who don't know how to handle a kid who's difficult like this. Does it make sense to you? That like a kid who's in this scenario who's a sibling who's watching this happen would respond in the way that you maybe did just cognitively, Does that make sense?

Guest:  It makes total sense cognitively. It just feels, you know, just.

Laura: yeah, absolutely. It feels wrong, but it makes sense. Like we can totally get why this little girl was this way, right? It's survival. It's it's all you know, to like if you grow up in a situation where difficult people are met with shame and blame and judgment instead of compassion, then how else are you supposed to know how to interact with them? 

What do you think would have happened if you, like if you know there was an ant in your family who would come in and be like, I know your sister is having a really hard time right now and your parents are not handling it well. She's your sister is a lovely person and she wants to help you. You know what what if you had someone who came alongside you and helped you see your sister differently then just through the lens of your parents, what do you think would have, how would it have been different?

Guest: I would like to think that that would have helped a lot.

Laura: Yeah.

Guest: Understanding.

Laura:  Yeah. Absolutely. And so I just part of me wonders to in as a part of your inner work that you're doing that the compassion peace can be hard. It can be quite a lot easier to come from a cognitive place of like it makes sense that you were the way you were. And then rather than going in and offering that little person compassion for being that way, you can also re parent yourself by coming alongside and being that aunt or someone else who came in and showed little you a different way to see your sister. 

That might be really helpful. So if you have time to do some meditation, some reflections on incidences that you remember from your childhood where your sister was really difficult and you were watching and thinking back, pulling up some of those scenarios and then stepping into the frame as your wise adult self now and explaining it to the little one, explaining it with all of the little you, explaining it to little you, all of the things that are going on. 

You know that right now your sister is overwhelmed. Her brain is you can even have a little session where you sit down with little you in your brain and you teach her about the brain stem and the three levels of cognitive development and what's going on in her sister's brain. These are all things that you can do as internal work with your little self that are maybe easier to access than like full on compassion. And that will help little you be more compassionate to your sister so that when you look back on those memories they will have a different color to them, a different tenor, a different vibration to them.

Does that make sense? And what is powerful about that? Is that when we do that, when we go in and we take a look at those memories that we have and we give them a different color. We kind of start shifting the lens that we ourselves were using while we were watching the situation. Then when they happen in our real life with the person who's triggering those memories, like the real life interactions also take on that different tenor. 

Because the lens that you're viewing your daughter with when she's being difficult when she's kind of acting like your sister. That lens is completely clouded by little use lens, it's completely clouded. And so if we want to change the lens that we are using to view our kids for some people, you can learn new things about child development and it's easy to shift that lens away. But sometimes we have these old lenses that are deeply ingrained in us and it's really hard to move them in the moment. And so we have to go back in time and change the actual lens instead of shifting it away. I don't know if that makes sense. 

Guest: Yeah. No, it makes total sense. I know when I've had success in doing that, it's just like taking me to a different mindset with her.

Laura: Yes, Absolutely.

Guest: When I am successful, it's amazing the shift that happens within me and then whatever I do or don't do whether it's quote unquote, right or wrong, parenting. It doesn't matter. Because the feeling she's getting from me is warm. 

Laura: Yes. The feeling she's getting from you is acceptance, right? And in general, you have been programmed to reject her, right? So, you grew up in a situation that everything that she is, everything that she's embodies was you were programmed to reject it, right? And so we have to re program that so that you can be unconditionally accepting in the moment with her. And they feel that our kids feel the difference when we come at them from a place of acceptance, right? And so in the moment when that's happening, when she is waking up this echo of your sister, that's within you, right? 

That's what it is. It's an echo, right? That's within you. She's waking it up. And the little one inside you is like, oh God, here we go again or whatever it is. And that they she says, I don't know what the things are that you get like, this doesn't need to be a big deal. Why does it have to be so difficult? I don't like are those are the things that you say to yourself in your head? 

Absolutely. You know, I know this because I have similar echoes and I have a similar child, Right? And so what's beautiful about these children is that they give us the chance to heal really deep wounds, really deep patterns and quite, you know, in doing this work with your daughter as your kind of co-conspirator. She has the power to help you heal your relationship with your sister. And we're not putting that on her just to be super clear. It is not our children's job to heal us or do anything for us, but they do give us opportunities, right? 

Okay. So in the moment when that's happening, in that echo kind of starts waking up inside of us and we have to recognize all the thoughts like why can't this just be easy? Why can't you just do what I ask? You know, we have to recognize all of those thoughts that flood that cascade of thoughts. Those thoughts are all coming from the past, those are all coming from our programming. Right? And so when that's happening, those little ones inside of us, those echoes are very present and close and concerned and they're listening, right? So they're open and available for changing too. 

So in that moment if you can get a little bit of a pause which I hope you're doing your mindfulness practices so that you can have the nervous system soothing. That allows you to have the pause. If you can get a little bit of a pause and be able to acknowledge and accept that flood that flood of like why can't she just do this? Like this needs to get done, this needs to be over. Why does she have to be so difficult? You know all of those things that you tell yourself and start acknowledging like oh yeah that's the programming for my childhood, that's about my sister and separate from like what's actually going on now and get a little bit of that distance. I think that that can be really helpful.

You can also like that gives you an opportunity to do a little bit of work with seven, I don't know why I keep saying seven year old you, I keep saying in my head, I don't know if that's the actual age. It just, I don't know anyway, but going, going into talking a little bit like as you talk to your daughter, letting your in her child watch you do that. It's almost the same thing as kind of that proactive piece of the part of it where you're doing it proactively, you're calling up the memories and kind of re parenting yourself in the, in your memories, you're doing it in the moment where you're saying like, hey little me, listen to this, watch this, this is what your sister deserved and this is what you deserve to see and then we're going to model good, respectful parenting for the little one inside us. Does that make sense? I don't know. Or is it to like to.

Guest: Like you're saying? I'm trying to think of how this practically plays out, but I understand what you're saying.

Laura: Yeah. So give me an example of a time when she is, you know, your trigger, she's having a really hard time. 

Guest: So one pretty typical scenario is around mealtime. 

Laura: Yeah. 

Guest: So it's always whatever I offer is good enough or it's not the right temperature or I didn't cut it right or I didn't do something right? Or she wants something I don't have. Usually there's some sort of meltdown around meal time. 

Laura: Okay. Yeah. 

Guest: When I go to that place in my head almost immediately, which is like, oh my God, what enough enough.

Laura: What what what are the things that you say to yourself like she doesn't like anything, She has to be difficult. What are the things that you say.

Guest: the main thing that my head is just? Why can't you be more flexible? 

Laura: Why can't you be more flexible? Okay. Yeah. 

Guest: Why does everything have to be perfect? Why does everything temperature perfect come the perfect way? Can't sneeze on it? I can't.

Laura: Why do you have to be so controlling? Why can't you be flexible? Okay? And so in the moment when you first see that thought float through your brain through the like the synapses fire and it goes through you can, if you can get a little bit of awareness, you can even pointed out say like, oh that thoughts about my sister. 

Like even just pointed out that like, you guys can't see me because this is a podcast I totally forgot, but I'm pointing like, as in like it's a cloud floating by like, oh they're like that thoughts about my sister, so getting a little bit of clarity that when those habitual thoughts role in like thunder clouds rolling into a perfect sunny day that those thoughts belong in the past, those thoughts don't belong to your daughter and they are not their habits and they are not true, right? So why can't you be more flexible? There's probably reasons why she can't be more flexible. Do you have a sense of why flexibility is hard for her? 

Guest: Yeah. I mean when I'm able to get back myself, I understand that she's three alright, was still three and yes, you know when I get to my higher self, able to understand these things 

Laura: Absolutely. So even just pointing out in the moment to yourself like oh that thought belongs to my sister. That thoughts from the past, that thoughts a habit can bring you back to yourself much quicker. So being firm with your thoughts with your thought process because we have control over what we're thinking. Sometimes it feels like we don't because the cascade of thought starts flowing really fast, but we got to get right like these are called thought stopping techniques and they are kind of a placeholder for good thought work. 

We have to get interrupt the flow right? Like this is kind of like if we're thinking about our thoughts are a river there flowing along a stream. Being able to say, oh that thought belongs in the past. That thought was about my sister pulls us out of the river until we can stand on the banks and watch the flow of our thoughts a little bit and get a little bit more distance and clarity. That pulls us out right? And so you said something before too about the like eat or don't eat, I don't care, right? 

Guest: That's my anger. Peace. 

Laura: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean like there's also anger with it, but like that's an option, but with a different attitude and a different energy, right? So I don't I don't care comes from a place of like, I feel rejected, not good enough. Nothing I ever do is right for you. Yeah, I'm just guessing, but like I'm not responsible for making your meal perfect. 

You know, like nobody I know you're disappointed you wanted to cut this way and it's not not so hard, has a little bit more of like the empathy and detached piece but still has the sense of like you can eat it or not. You know, it's I know it's not how you were hoping it would be. So the the eat it or don't eat it is an okay place to come from. But the energy behind it is what matters right. 

Guest: This is in a nutshell, my challenge with her because I may not say the right things with my words, but it absolutely does not matter if I'm not there with my sensitivity.

Laura: with the energy. Okay, so this is making me think of something that you said a while back that's been kind of hanging out in the back of my mind. And I just am curious when you were talking about your mom and your oldest sister and your next older sister and how your next older sister was more easy going and could meet your mom's needs for affection.

Like the codependency like alarm bell went off in my head and I am wondering about that if there is some because I mean many of us were raised in kind of codependent relationships with our our families where we were emotionally responsible. We were responsible for our parents emotional well being for helping to meet our parents needs helping to keep things calm so that our parents could be okay. Like this is classic codependency, right? But and that sneaks in on us to the best of us, the idea that you need to be flexible so that my life can be easier kind of like thought pattern. 

And so like this is with a heaping heaping doses of compassion and grace and we're just becoming aware of patterns with no blame, no shame or guilt because those things shut down any growth opportunities, right? I recognize those in myself and my thoughts often because I was raised in a co dependent family where there was a lot of emotional co dependency, like my dad was also raised in a very emotionally co dependent place. I mean, oh my gosh! His older brother was killed in a car accident and he became the one who was responsible for keeping his mom happy after that accident.

I mean, so he had no other option than to raise me in an emotionally co dependent way. He couldn't have possibly like those things take time to shift. Those patterns, take generations to shift and so they're still within me with no like blame or ill will towards my dad. He did the best that he could. But there were absolutely times where I needed to be different or showed up differently so that he could be okay emotionally.

There are still times where that pattern is still present and there are still times where as an adult, I have to block that pattern from happening with him in my kids where he will be pressuring them to do something to please him. And I step in and I say to my kids directly, it's okay for you to not do what he's asking, You don't have to, grandpa can handle it. 

He's a grown up, you know, you know, and I'm talking directly to the kids, but in with compassion to my dad, of course, you know, we all want to keep the help, the people we love be happy, but kids are not responsible for that. And so when we notice that pattern of our thoughts flowing in our heads, it's so good to cultivate self talk back to us. Do you feel like you have a sense of like, were you aware sometimes your thoughts tended towards like I want her to be easy so that I can be okay? 

Guest: Yeah, I mean, I guess maybe I wasn't labeling it exactly that way. So it's good to hear your phrase it that way.

Laura: But again with no judgment or blame or guilt at all okay with only compassion for ourselves, okay, because we're all doing the best that we can. 

Guest: No, I I agree. I mean especially at this time where a lot of my needs are not getting that because of heaven, because of isolation and all that stuff, I put a lot on my kids. 

Laura: Yeah, we all do and that is natural and it happens and at the same time we have to recognize patterns that are happening and coming up and work to change them and awareness is the first piece of it, right? And so cultivating some things you can say back to yourself can be really helpful, like you know, my ability to make food that's pleasing to my daughter does not define my worth as a parent or whether or not I'm doing a good job as a mom, you know, being able to say those things and if you know that like mealtimes are going to be a struggle giving yourself a pep talk beforehand can be super helpful. So like when one of my kids are in a picky phase like that and it happens with all kids, they go through them before we sit down to dinner. Sometimes, even if my husband happens to be there with me, we will say, okay, so we're serving this, we know that this one is not going to eat it. We know that they will complain about it. We know that that's going to happen, that they will, you know, not like it or whatever. And when that happens like this is how we're going to respond, we're going to have a plan for, we're going to be proactive about it. You can sit down with yourself in journal for two minutes before you call the kids to dinner about, you know, like, okay, so this is what she's probably going to say. This is what I'm going to say back. 

This is what I'm going to say to myself, Okay, I'm going to practice that to myself over and over right now. My worth as a parent is not defined by whether or not my kids like my cooking, my worth as a parent is not defined by whether my kids like my cooking, whatever affirmation it is, and that puts you in a compassionate and kind of good mindset for it. Is that something you've tried to do before meals with? Yeah. And this, so with kids who are difficult temperament wise, who have this big sensitive personality, big feelings. 

I mean these kids are here to wake us up there, here to change the world, They're here for a purpose, right? If we can just hang on for the ride and not crush it out of them, they are going to do amazing things because they have this power in them that just needs to be honed and cultivated and just needs a good prefrontal cortex on top to help them filter it and regulate it and they don't have it yet, right? 

I think about sometimes about those of us who are like this, are the change makers in the world, who are you know what we could have done if we didn't have it crushed out of us are stuffed out of us as kids or we didn't get the message that this was wrong or bad for us as kids, but it's hard for the parents in the moment and we're all just doing the best that we can. 

So being, if we know though, that this is who we have, this, we've got one of these change makers in our family, we've got one of these john world sensitive kids, then we got to be prepared for it. We know there's going to be pushed back on all of these things, there is no reason to like walk through your house and through your life with unexpected explosions coming up when we can map out the land mines that are there, there's no reason to feel like we are walking on eggshells because this is predictable, right? 

We can get ahead of it. Yeah, absolutely. And so like with all of these things that proactive nature to it is what gets you out of feeling like you are just surviving, that you were just putting out fires, you know that you're constantly having to repair and reconnect instead of being able to be mindful and intentional in the moment, the proactive piece of it is so important. So I would also highly recommend that we sit down with yourself and make a list of like, okay, so when do I know we're going to have a problem? 

When do I know there's going to be conflict, you know, with one of my kids right now, she's having some socks, sensitivities, I know that every time she puts on socks, every single time she puts on socks it's going to be rough, it's going to be hard. And so when it's time to put on socks, I take a few minutes to mentally prepare myself to see this myself, make sure I'm in a good head space, right? So mapping out your day, going through, sitting down and get those points out, and then it can be really helpful  to have like where you are, where that happens to give yourself notes, like.

So we put on socks for the most part in the mud room and there's this cabinet and right at eye level, I put a post it note that says breathe mama on it and put it right there. So I see it when I'm standing kind of standing up, waiting for her to put her socks on. You know, like it's right there, right where I'm looking. Okay? So those are the proactive things and here's the in the moment stuff too. Well, I guess I want to hear what you have to say about the proactive piece of stuff. Piece of things. 

Guest: I mean, you know, I love it. Okay, that's kind of what I'm already. 

Laura: So yeah, right? So like I do, I think even for your homework, I would love to have you send me your list of predictable times. You know, she's going to lose it. You know, there's gonna be conflict. You know, there's going to be resistance, right? If you send those to me, that would be great just for accountability. Okay. And then, so in the moment when it's happening, we've talked a little bit about your mindset, your thought work again, the proactive work of self's oozing of building those skills so that you can get the pause in the moment and get yourself on right. But one of the biggest things you can do in my opinion, when this is all happening is to get lower than them.

Okay. So most of the time when this is happening with these kids, these kids are very sensitive to their sense of control and their autonomy and their individuality and any time we give them any kind of direction or any kind of change requests, it feels like an infringement mint on who they are and they push back against it. They have such a firm sense of who they are and such a very strong boundary around it. That when we feel like we're encroaching on that boundary, they shove it back on it. And so if we get lower than their eyes, that is a signal to their nervous system that they are in charge that they are in a position of power. And so the very first thing when this happens with my kiddos especially my explosive one is that I get lower, I get down lower so that she's over top of me.

We are big to these little kids, we are huge to them. It can be really helpful to to do an exercise if you have another adult in your life who is willing to do this with you to get lower yourself. Get down low, like sit down on the ground and have them stand over you and tell you what to do. Get mad at you and kind of role play that so that you have that experience of looking up on an adult who's angry with you. 

And it can be a really great exercise to do with a partner if they have time and are available because there's attachment relationship between the two of you. And it will highlight how scary it can be. And for some kids who are in that situation who feel unsafe a lot of the time, just because of the body they have, just because of the brain.

They have the nervous system that they have, giving that trigger, giving that clue that you're safe. You're in control. You have power here by getting lower can be a big change, right? Do you do to get lower thing on a regular basis with her?

Guest:  Not on a regular basis? I do try when I contacted sort of sit down. But sometimes that triggers

Laura: yeah, the sitting down, some people think that's sitting down in front of a kid feels like that you are grounded and you're not going anywhere. Like I like to crouch down with one foot up like on one leg down rather than actually sitting down planted so that I'm quick to move with an explosive kid who has low self regulation skills. You've got to be quick to move sometimes and sitting down cross legged, makes you not able to be so quick, you know, and I know that you are expecting a little one.

Your movements are a little bit limited right now too, I mean so that can help, but this is a perfect example about how general parenting advice to sometimes doesn't work for your kid and then you got to flex and be willing to move. What does help her soothe calm down, feel like she's got some power in a situation. Do you have a sense? 

Guest: So it depends on the situation and what is triggering her reaction. Sometimes it's all about the power struggle and she just needs me to give her a little bit to give in a little bit whatever is I'm holding on to, you know, like sometimes I just I need to be more flexible and I need to be the one to sort of give in even though it feels like in the moment I'm holding my ground because I'm trying to keep the parent, but in reality it's probably just plain old power struggle and I'm holding my ground as much as she's holding her ground in those situations. That helps to just give it. 

Just let her do at least one thing that she wants to do that I was resisting. And then there are times when she's just completely dis regulated and you know, it's like maybe I know what started it, but I couldn't change that situation for her. She was overstimulated for one reason or another and and she just, this is her coping and that's it. I need to hold space for that. 

Laura: Yeah. And how did she like to have you help her with that? 

Guest: So usually honestly she likes to be alone. I let her I gave her a stuffed animal she loves and a blanket that she loves and I just want to coax her to go to the yeah I said why don't you go get your blanket and you know your animal and your friend and give me a hug because she doesn't want me to do that to myself. 

Laura: Yeah. You know I think that is more common than what people know. I think it kind of the popular peaceful parenting world. We get the message that we shouldn't leave our kids alone with their emotions and there's truth to that. We shouldn't banish them to their rooms with their big feelings because they're big feelings are unacceptable to us. But when they are asking for space, when they're seeking for space, when they are attempting to soothe themselves in our presence is making that harder for them. I think that it's respectful to trust our children to trust that this is what they need. This is the space that they need. And having a proactive plan for that can be really helpful to.

So like, you know, and that plan updates as kids get older. Well, when my five year old was three, our plan was different than it is now. Should we just updated our plan for when she's having big feelings now she wants me to, she used to like, like me to kind of help her get to her room so she could get it all out while I sat outside her door. 

And now she wants me to just let her go to her room or wherever she is, you know, have her feelings and then check on her every three minutes and just, you know, every three minutes say, you know, it's been three minutes, are you ready for me? And then when she's ready that she crawls into my lap and we snuggle and talk about it, you know? But having a proactive plan can be really, really helpful for that. And this is just for listeners. It sounds like you have a proactive plan for your little one. 

Guest: I can always Perfect. 

Laura: Yeah. I mean it takes updating as they grow. And you know, I want to just mention to that for those who are listening, who are saying like hearing you say, I give in. You know, there is a difference between permissiveness and offering our child grace and the ability to be an imperfect human rights. So there is a difference between being permissive and not having any boundaries and not holding the ones that are important for keeping our kids safe and being able to walk it back.

Coming to understand when we've been too rigid or if we've invited them into a power struggle and taking a step back from that letting go of our need to control them. There are differences between there's nuance and shades of gray there. And so I think oftentimes lots of parents have a fear of being permissive and it keeps them from being flexible with their kids. And so I loved what you said there about how there are times when I just need to be flexible and I think that's part of being the grown up in the relationship, recognizing like I have the skills, the cognitive skills that I need to be flexible and a three year old does not.

Sometimes a three year old has rigid thinking and self centered thinking because they have a three year old brain and I don't have a three year old brain. I have the ability to be flexible here, which means I have the opportunity to offer her grace and compassion and offer that to myself and to be flexible. And I think that is drastically different than being permissive. 

Do you know what I mean? And there's another proactive peace to this too is that when we have a kid who pushes back against all of our limits and all of our boundaries, we have to be super intentional about the limits and boundaries that we set the regular, you know, the kind of the rules of the house, and we may need to drastically reduce some of our expectations and drastically reduce some of the things that we asked kids to do in order to let things calm down, Especially for these kids whose nervous system reacts as if we're threatening them every time we ask them to do something.

And that's a fact that there are kids out there who every time we say it's time to put your shoes on. You know, do you need to go potty, you know now I can't let you have these, you know, the fruit snacks for snack because you just had a pack of fruit snacks or whatever it is. Any time we give any limit, they perceive it as a threat and their nervous systems are on high alert for that. And so sometimes drastically reducing our expectations can be really helpful too. 

And that, you know, when you make that map of your day of the common land mines where I know there's going to be conflict, that's also a really good opportunity to revise and just kind of take a look at like, okay, so in this situation, what's my expectation ideally? What would she do? Is it reasonable? Do I need it isn't necessary? Is it one that I can prune away for now? Not always, but just for now until she can better meets more expectations. I don't know if that's helpful to 

Guest: Yeah. Especially with all these changes that are going to be happening.

Laura: You know the new little ones and stuff? 

Guest: Bare boned with my expectation.

Laura: Bare bones, give yourself permission to do so. In my respectful parenting. One of one course I teach about the three yeses for knowing kind of what limits to set they are. Safety is first. That's what we like. When we think about a limit we think about. For the most part, most of our limits should be around safety about keeping kids safe, keeping ourselves safe, keeping our property safe, you know? And then the next one is, the next stage is so thinking about kids developmental stage, is this expectation appropriate for them?

Is this something that reasonably we can expect them to be able to follow through on? And then the last s is our sanity? Can we handle them doing this? Can our relationship survive them doing this or do we need to limit it to kind of protect our relationship? And so thinking about those three yeses and looking at the places where you have these kind of landmines and explosions and really analyzing like do I need this? 

This limit? Is this limit about her safety? You know? If it's yes then we keep it if it's no then we ask. Okay so is this limit developmentally appropriate? If it is you know then we keep it. If it's not then we let it go and then the next one is you know does this limit preserve our relationship? Does it preserve my sanity? 

And if it does then you keep it if it doesn't then it's probably when we can let go. Then we found some that we can release. I would recommend going through that process too. I mean so like and that helps us fine tune. Like what do we really care about? What do we really believe? And so then when we have this list of what our actual limits are, but we really are going to be focusing on with our kiddos. 

Then when the other ones come up, when we are met with resistance and the pushing back, we know like hey this one doesn't matter. You know, this one doesn't matter right now. I'm not focusing on this and we can let it go with confidence in the full knowledge that we're not being permissive, that we're holding the boundaries that matter to us. Right? Okay, so you were saying you wanted to have a clarify on the three S. Is right. Go ahead.

Guest: And Yeah, I mean I understand the boundaries that you set for for safety 

Laura: Stage

Guest: stage of development and insanity. But what about teaching moments or you're trying to be proactive in trying to lead them or teach them? 

Laura: Can you give me an example?

Guest: Trying to think of one as we're talking? So maybe it's something that so much of a boundary that they can't do something but you're trying to teach them how to handle a certain situation. So think of one. So for instance the other day my daughter was had a friend over who has an allergy and there was a snack that my daughter wanted and I told her normally I would let her have it. And I said you know, we can't have this because your friend had analogy, I said you know you're an allergy but your friend body can't handle this so it's not nice for us to eat it if she can't have it. 

Now, I know this is a pretty mature lesson for a three year old, but and she, you know, she completely lost it and she had, you know, if I've been a tantrum on the floor, which I understand, but there are boundaries and maybe that would be considered more safety. But I'm thinking of just from achieving perspective of the situations. 

Laura: So I think one of the things that in that moment, your expectation that she will be able to understand your rationale and accept the boundary with Grace, maybe developmentally inappropriate. All right, So, like, and that happens to us all the time. We think if we give them a good reason for why we're saying no, they'll accept that happily, right, You know, and they don't care, You know? 

So I mean, and they can't care. So the part of the brain that allows a kid to put themselves into someone else's shoes consistently think about what it would be like to be in their perspective and being in that experience that part of the brain, the kids start getting really good at that between six and 8 and so for a three year old, they do not care about the other kids allergy or what might like hurt that they don't care. 

And it's not that they because they're mean, it's because they can't care, they literally don't have that ability yet. Most of the time, you know, some kids are super empathetic and can do that, but that's there's a developmental range for those things and so when that's happening, like sometimes in our delivery of some limits, we give off the energy that we are trying to convince our kids to see it our way, that we're trying to convince our kids to like our limit like our boundary that that energy comes out of us. Like we are in trying to frame it in a way that so that we don't get the meltdown right. 

And these kids, especially kids like your daughter and my oldest one are incredibly sensitive to that and it feels like lies and manipulation and they reject it right? So we're not lying to them, but we are kind of trying to convince them not to have their feelings right? When we do those things were kind of trying to convince them like you know this is a good thing like this is not you know like I mean we do this because we don't want our kids to struggle, we don't want our kids to have pain, we don't want to have a freaking meltdown when they're having a play date and I've got a friend over either. 

You know, we're trying to avoid some of this, and then we go in and we give the delivery of a limit with a little bit of an energy that especially for some kids, but many kids see right through and don't care about, you know, and it can even be bigger and does that make sense? 

Guest: It makes total sense, but it's still a boundary you have to hold.

Laura: It is so that's in the delivery then, like, yeah, nobody like, you know, so there's a difference between, like, you know, we can't have this right now because your friend can't have it and so we're not going to have it, you know, your friend isn't able to have it would be unsafe for us to have it right now, and we can't have it, you know? And just a little bit versus, you know, the piece of it wouldn't be nice to eat it in front of them, you know, like that kind of convincing and then like really getting comfortable with the idea that they do not have to like our boundaries right, but that we can handle a meltdown. 

Like, first of all, my guess is that that meltdown was not about the snack at all. That meltdown was because her window of tolerance was being shortened by being with her friend, that she was having to engage in a lot of self regulation by simply existing and being in a space with another kid, her age, playing with them navigating social relationships, like that's exhausting to a three year old who has very few skills.

And so I'm guessing that that meltdown had very little to do with the snack and much more to do with that she had kind of nothing left to give in those moments. And so when that's happening, we can even tell ourselves like this isn't about like this isn't about the snack, she needs this meltdown, This meltdown is good for her, you know, this is her body offloading stress and the best way it knows how she needs to be able to cry. 

She needs to get this out of our system, you know, having a good things to tell about it ourselves, but we also have to do the proactive work of not being afraid of our kids, big feelings and not trying to, you know, think that we need to they need to just accept our limits with Grace, that even adults have a hard time accepting boundaries and limits that they don't like, you know of navigating situations with grace, even adults have problems in those scenarios.

Like I mean you think about like if my husband came home the other day and had gotten some food while he, you know, to I don't know, had gotten some food while he was out. He was at work and he came home with food and he was like, they discontinued my favorite sandwich at this place. They don't have it anymore. He was upset about it. He was disappointed about it. You know, like, I mean, he didn't fall on the floor and have a meltdown, but that's because he had this great, you know, well developed brain, you know, that kept him from being able to do that that three year olds don't have have access to yet to.

So I hope that was helpful to our lens our mindset, even when we go in, like I would release the need to teach her anything in that moment and that she will learn the empathy simply by having been engaged in seeing you empathize with the kiddo, you know, like they don't need to learn all of that stuff. There's not an emergency in these learning things and most of the time when we are trying to teach a kid a lesson, the kid is in a brain state where they are the least likely to learn the lesson, you know? And so yeah, the learning opportunities, I think we can let a lot of those slide by and trust that they will learn those things and other ways that we don't need to directly teach a lot of that, that a lot of that will get that they will learn through experience and through seeing in action.

So we can kind of even reassure ourselves that we can release the idea that we are going to somehow make her see the perspective that it would be, how hard it would be to be at a friend's house, see them eating something you can't have, you know, like there's other opportunities and she will have time to learn that when she's older too, and there's no emergency, no need to speed through it at three, you know? 

Yeah. And that's for lots of the teaching opportunities, you know? And and like I'm being kind to ourselves, of course, we all want to raise empathetic, compassionate, kind kids like and that's part of our identity to as parents. So I hope that you're super kind with yourself on those things, but I think you can also give yourself permission to let some of those agendas go so that you can hold a more clear boundary that is rooted in kind of what she needs, you know? 

Guest: So keep it to the safety without the teacher. 

Laura: Yes. Keep it at the same time. 

Guest: The boundary is the safety is you're not right. 

Laura: So yeah, exactly. Don't, we don't have to complicate it with all of our adult stuff. I think that we do that. Sometimes we take our adult lens and all that we want our kids to learn and be and we put it on our kids way too early. Like we can take that adult stuff is not their responsibility at this point in time. Like it's your responsibility to make sure that no allergies are out when the plate is happening and we can hold that boundary with confidence and she doesn't have to like it. And she will learn to be compassionate for her friends with allergies later. You know, and she will learn it through other ways of being.

So for example, we have so many kids in our network that have allergies and so every time before Covid we would have a birthday party, my kids would watch me carefully make three or four different birthday cakes so that everybody had a treat at the party. I mean what do you think? They learned? They learned that piece of it then as opposed to in the moment where they're being denied something and they're disappointed by it, you know, so they can be confident that our kids will learn the things that they need simply by watching us and being the beautiful, compassionate, empathetic person that I know you are. 

Your kids will learn all of those things in time and there's no rush on any of them. Those are lifelong lessons that many adults I know are still learning two. Okay, alright. Thanks for asking that clarifying question. That was great. Okay, so this is a lot to digest. If you do have questions, feel free to follow up with me, thank you for being with us and being so open and vulnerable in this session. I think it's going to be really helpful for the folks who listen to it.

Guest: I hope so. Thank you very much. 

Laura: Yeah.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review. That really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out and definitely go follow me on Instagram @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes, look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus, I share a lot of other really great resources there too.

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this.

Episode 57: Compassion Starts With Us with Jeffrey Marsh (Inner Work Series No. 5)

We are now down to the last installment of the Inner Work Series, where we dive deep into our inner self for healing and understanding. In the past few weeks, we learned to pause and untangle our triggers, meet our inner critic, become the confident leader of our internal family, and find joy through our inner child. And as we wrap up this inner work, I am giving one more episode (Actually, there is also a BONUS live coaching episode coming too! See details below.). In this episode, we are going to focus on self-compassion and self-acceptance, as these are the prerequisites to conscious parenting. And what better way to help us on these topics than bringing in a radical self-acceptance advocate and my personal hero, Jeffrey Marsh!!

Jeffrey is the first openly non-binary public figure to be interviewed on national television and was also the first non-binary author to be offered a book deal with any "Big 5" publisher. It is their lifelong mission to help individuals learn to accept themselves for who they are, and we share the belief that if we hope to accept our kids unconditionally, we MUST start with ourselves. Interviewing Jeffrey was a dream come true, and I can't wait for you to hear it! Here's what we will cover:
​

• Self-compassion and acceptance

• Zen Buddhist approaches to parenting and life (and parenting within!)

• LGBTQ rights

• Trans kids and what they need
  ​

And if you want to have a guide on how to discover the best person you can be, get their book "How to Be You." It comes both in paperback and audiobook.

For more resources, visit www.jeffreymarsh.com, follow them on Instagram @thejeffreymarsh, and hear him speak on TEDTalk!

Episode 56: Finding Joy through Your Inner Child With Kelly Rollins (Inner Work Series No. 4)

A significant part of this inner work is reconnecting with our inner child. And while this may mean meeting their needs for comfort and safety, they also need connection, fun, and play. If you've been feeling like you don't know how to have fun anymore, let the little one inside you show you how! Our Inner Child is the BEST person to guide us to that joy!
​
And so for this episode, I'm bringing in Kelly Rollins, a beautiful mom, and wife who rediscovered fun, play, & joy in parenting by getting back in touch with her inner child. She is a crochet designer and has been crocheting for over 15 years to bring people's inner child to life for them to love and find joy in life again. Hear her story, her struggles as a mom, and what made her decide to make crocheted dolls as a part of her life's purpose of helping people reclaim their inner child.
​
Here's what we talked about:

• How to find our inner child

• How to reparent ourselves in the moment

• How regularly working with our inner child can bring more joy into our life

See more of Kelly Rollins and her beautiful creations on Instagram @innerchilddolls. Join her community on Facebook and visit her website www.innerchilddolls.com (you can find the steps to take here for you to get your own inner child doll!).

Don't forget to have the Companion Journal (it's FREE!) with you as you navigate through this work.

Episode 55: Becoming the Confident Leader of Your Internal Family with Gabriela Blanco (Inner Work Series No. 3)

How are you? I hope everything is going well with you. I know, as we do this Inner Work, we will be uncovering unpleasant feelings and memories from the past. But I do hope that YOU will not give up. I am here for you and we are all in this together. You don't have to go this alone, even within your own heart. You see, we all have multiple sides to ourselves, little sub-personalities that are all vying for attention and for the chance to "run the show". And they are all waiting for YOU, the real you, to step up and lead them with confidence. So, for this week, we will be meeting the different parts of ourselves so that we can become the confident leader of our internal family.
​
I'm so excited to bring in a guest expert on this topic. She's Gabriela Blanco who is a conscious parenting coach who works with parents who are intentionally healing as they parent. She provides tools and strategies to support them in leading their internal families so that they can show up better for themselves and their external families. Now, in this episode, we are going to talk about a mode of therapy that will help us understand what is going on inside ourselves, how we can do internal healing work that we need to show up as conscious, and whole parents for our kids.
​
Here's an overview of our discussion:

• Internal Family System (IFS - What it is and how it is applied in our healing process.)

• Different parts of IFS

• How IFS can complement Respectful Parenting

​
Follow Gabriela on Instagram to get regular prompts about IFS and the internal healing process. Her Instagram handle is @healingparents. Check her website www.gabrielablanco.net as well. It contains a lot of resources for doing this internal work.

Don't forget to have the Companion Journal (it's FREE!) with you as you navigate through this work.

Episode 54: Meeting Your Inner Critic with Compassion with Xavier Dagba (Inner Work Series No. 2)

I hope you liked the first episode of the Inner Work Series and learned a lot from it. Now, for the second episode, we will be digging into our Inner Critic so that we can heal our past traumas and wounds. I know this work might be uncomfortable for you. And so, some of you wanted to shut down your Inner Critic. But we have to face our fears so that we can finally move forward.
​
For this episode, Xavier Dagba will be helping us in meeting our Inner Critic. He is a transformational life coach committed to bridging trauma and inner child work so that people can free themselves from the wounds that bound them. Here are concepts we will be tackling:

• Inner child work

• Reparenting

• Shadow work

• Trauma work

​
​If you wish to DIVE EVEN DEEPER into taming your inner critic, then I would love to invite you to a workshop that Xavier is holding later this week (Thursday the 15th!) on exactly that. To register for the (free) workshop, just CLICK HERE!​
​
​The Inner critic masterclass is a 1-hour deep dive, where Xavier will lead you in a transformational process of reclaiming your power from your inner critic so that you may experience more inner peace and give yourself permission to thrive. Here is what you’ll learn:

• How to identify the voices of your past that are hosted in your inner critic.

• The hidden dynamics between your inner critic and your inner child.

• How to disrupt your inner critic with compassion and reclaim your power.

• How to Integrate the parts of yourself that you had to disown in the shadow in order to let your inner critic run the show.

• How to dismantle the most lethal weapon of your inner critic: toxic shame.

• How to anchor self-compassion and liberate your most authentic self.
  ​

​You can register for this amazing workshop HERE.

I wouldn't miss a chance to hear Xavier speak (his voice is soooo soothing), so I will see you there!

Don't forget to have the Companion Journal (it's FREE!) with you as you navigate through this work.

Episode 53: Getting the Pause through Inner Child Work w/ Trish Philips of The Doodle Doc (Inner Work Series No. 1)

I'm so excited for the month of April because we will be digging into our inner work of conscious parenting series. So for the next four weeks, I'm going to bring in some experts in the field to help us important concepts such as:

• Getting the PAUSE to be Less Reactive

• Taming Our Inner Critic

• Becoming the Leader of Our Internal Family

• Finding Joy Through Inner Child Work

And lastly, to wrap up this Inner Work Series, I will be giving you an episode where I do a live coaching on these topics with one of my community members.

​So for the first episode of the series, Dr. Trish Phillips of The Doodle Doc will be joining us. She is a coach who helps people reconnect with their inner child through doodles (check out her Instagram @thedoodledoc!). Here's an overview of what we talked about:

• How do we do the pause proactively?

• How do we do the pause when we are triggered?

• How our early relationships form our internal working models of ourselves and others and what it takes to be safe and love?

• How to bring our childlike qualities and joy in our everyday life?

If you wish to know more about The Doodle Doc and how to become a loving Inner Parent, visit their website www.thedoodledoc.com.

Want to take this inner work to the next level?

This month of content is practically a course in and of its self! I've worked really hard to bring together these amazing experts and resources and I really want you to get the most out of them, so I put together a companion workbook for you to use as you listen and process these episodes. It's completely free and is a great example of the resources my BalancingU members get in my membership.

Episode 52: Discussing Differences with Danny Jordan of The Capables

As I'm sure you're aware, kids are SUPER good at noticing differences! They are primed to be noticing them, it's part of normal child development, which can be kinda... uncomfortable for us parents who have been kind of conditioned to downplay differences ("shh! That's not polite!") rather than celebrate them. Differences can refer to race, gender, class, development, disability, and other forms.

However our children are natural curious beings and at times, they will point out the differences they see. I know questions such as "Mom, why is his skin color like that? Dad why is her arm shorter than the other?", can make us feel uncomfortable. And so, I want to help you address those queries by bringing in Danny Jordan in this podcast episode.

Danny Jordan is a proud husband and dad of a beautiful daughter who was diagnosed with an upper limb difference back in 2018. He's here to share with you his story and how he became an advocate for inclusion and accurate representation of disability in media.

We talked about:

• What we should do when our kids point out a difference

• How to address limb differences

• The Capables (The book Danny wrote for her daughter and others like her to see themselves represented on a page. IT'S OUT NOW! You can order your copy at www.TheCapables.com.)
  

Let's create a world that is more loving and accepting. Tune in and don't forget to follow Danny on Instagram. You can find him @dannyjordan and @thecapables.

Episode 51: How to Set Healthy Boundaries After Narcissism with Triptta Butkovich

Today we are talking about narcissism. What it is, what it isn't, how to spot it, & how to recover from a relationship with a narcissist. Narcissistic people have traits such as a lack of empathy, extreme sensitivity, and manipulative behavior that could lead to an abusive relationship. So what do we do? Should we leave them and stay away? What if we can't? And if we can't, how can we set healthy boundaries with them?

This is a heavy topic, so to help me with it I've brought in an expert on this topic in my podcast and help us learn how to set healthy boundaries after narcissism. It is such an honor to introduce to you Trippta Butkovich who is an Emotional Resilience Coach. She has dedicated her life to helping people recover from narcissistic abuse as she was married to a narcissistic husband before. Her experiences will help you navigate the relationships in your life that have been affected by narcissism, whether they be with your partner, your parents, or others.

Here's a summary of what we talked about:

1. Narcissism and the different types

2. Setting your boundaries especially to help manage an abusive relationship better (as you exit & afterward)

3. Recovering from narcissistic abuse

4. Co-parenting with a narcissist

While our discussion does focus on partner relationships, I know that many of you are recovering from a narcissistic parent, so we touch on that as well; and many of the tips apply no matter the relationship.

Follow Trippta on Facebook and learn more about recovering from narcissistic relationships. Check out her website www.designyou.ca as well to find more resources or join her Facebook Community.

Episode 50: Raising Kids with a Healthy Money Mindset with Chris Farrell

Can I be real with you for a second?

Adulting can be really freaking hard for me sometimes...

Especially when it comes to money...

As a kid, my parents did a LOT right when it came to teaching me about money, including investing small amounts for me for college and encouraging me to always save/invest part of my income (think birthday money) by "matching" it. But most of the time that all happened out of my sight and without my active involvement. So when it came time to go out on my own, I really felt woefully unprepared for managing my own finances. As a parent, I really wanted to do it differently with my own kids

​And I think I'm not alone in this, right?

Harnessing this skill is important in navigating our life, which is why it is so surprising that our education system doesn't really teach us much about financial literacy, right?? We need this to survive in life and as a parent, we want to equip our children with financial skills so that when they grow up, they will be wise in handling money.

​And so, I'm excited for you to hear Chris Farrell who is an expert in this field and is SO passionate about educating young people about money and business. Chris and his business partner launched their foundation FUNancial Freedom where they help kids set up for a successful and FUN future.

​Listen to our FUN conversation and learn how to help and teach our kids:

• Develop a rock-solid savings habit that will stick with them for life

  • And I share the practical way I implement this with my kids! (I will be sharing videos/posts on this on my IG and FB pages this week if you're not already following me there!)

• Develop an entrepreneurial mindset

• The importance of giving back

• Instill a positive attitude towards money

​If you wish to learn more and achieve FUNancial freedom for your kids (and for yourself too!), follow Chris on his social media: Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram (@funancial.freedom). Visit www.funancialfreedom.com and grab a copy of the free digital FUNancial Freedom Book!

Episode 49: How Fear & Lack Blocks You from Authentic Connection & Joy with AmyJo Mattheis

Do you ever feel that you are not enough, that you can't get all the things done, or that you can't give enough to your kids and your partner?

I sometimes feel and think this way, and I know I am not alone. As Brene Brown puts it, we all have moments of this "never enough" problem, and we becoming overwhelmed by feelings of disconnection, lack, and fear...

​As you know, I am on a MISSION to help parents overcome these feelings of fear, lack, and separation. In this community, I want us to help each other heal our old wounds & find new ways of thinking, feeling, and BEING with ourselves and our loved ones so that we can live in love, abundance, and unity.

​To help us achieve that, I'm bringing in a colleague who shares this mission: AmyJo Mattheis. She brings years of rich and varied professional experiences to all she does. She is a scholar and a former professor like me who now helps people live more authentic, connected lives.

​Here's an overview of our conversation:

• Causes of stress, the feelings of chaos, and being ungrounded

• How to shift from Fear, Lack, and Separation to Love, Abundance, and Unity

• The storytelling/retelling tool that can be applied and used again and again.

If you want to learn more about AmyJo's methodology, visit her website www.pavonavigation.com.

And don't forget to listen to (or re-listen to!) Episode 7: The Truth about Triggers, Trauma, and Unconditional Love where we discuss the origin of our triggers, as both parents and partners: How they come to be, what they mean about us and our inner world and narrative, why they so often emerge in our most significant relationships, and how we can respond consciously to the child in front of us by healing the hurting child within us.

Episode 48: How to Get Kids to Help with Chores

Are you having trouble getting your kids to clean up their toys?

Or are you frustrated because they resist to help you with house chores?

​Well, I get asked about this A LOT from my community. As a parent, we want to teach our children to be responsible. We want them to take care of their belongings, their home, and their family. But the bigger question is, how can we get them to do this because they WANT to, because they value being a part of the family and contributing the home? That's the big, long-term goal right? But sometimes, in our effort to just "get $h!t done" we use methods, like rewards & punishments that actually UNDERMINE those long term goals and lead to resistance and resentment. So then, what do we do??

​In this episode, I want to give you the tips you need to get your kids to help with house chores (without rewards or punishment). Just so you know, in our home, we don't use rewards system or punishment to make our children do some tasks. So, how did I do it? Here are the tips (be sure to listen to the podcast for more details and check my IG post!):​

1. Invite them at a very young age.

2. Express sincere gratitude and enjoyment.

3. Make it part of the family culture.

4. Make it fun.

5. Build it into the rhythm.

6. Be more collaborative.

7. Be flexible.

8. Respect their time and agenda and what they're doing.

9. Model graciousness.

10. Keep your eye on the long game.

Do you want to have a roadmap for creating rhythms, routines, and rituals that keep you grounded in your values and connected as a family?

YES? Then, be sure to get my Step-by-Step Guide (if you still haven't got a copy!)

Episode 47: Yes Parenting with Bea Marshall

Do you ever feel like you are just constantly saying "NO" as a parent?

No to your kids...

No to your partner...

No to joy, ease, connection...

No to yourself...

You are not alone! So often in parenting we focus so much on the "no's".

"No, you can't eat that."

"No, you can't have more screens."

"No, I don't have time for my old yoga class."

If it feels like you are "stuck in no" right now, I'm here to help you, and I've called in the Queen of "Yes" my friend and colleague Bea Marshall of "Yes Parenting".

When her first son was born, Bea wanted what most of us think we want when we become parents: Happy children who listen. In service of this she became super controlling and used whatever she could to gain compliance (time outs, reward charts, etc). However, her son became distant and was far from being compliant, happy, and relaxed. She finally had a moment where she realized that saying "no" wasn't working for her neurodiverse family, and she started looking for the YES in every situation. And so, for this episode, Bea will help us learn the Yes Parenting approach where by looking for and embracing YES (for your kids AND yourself) you can find more joy, peace, connection, and ease in your family.

She brings a level of levity and REALNESS to her work that I just know you're going to appreciate.

DISCLAIMER: There's a little bit of explicit words used in this episode but rest assured, these words are used with PURPOSE to explain a practical process to guide parents in Yes Parenting. It is her F.U.C.K. this S.H.I.T. method for getting a pause, looking under behavior, & parenting with connection. This is one of the things

Here's an overview of what we talked about:

• Understanding the root cause to be in control

• Relationship between our unmet needs and our need to be in control

• Tips on how to meet our need for control and power

• Principles of Yes Parenting (How to say Yes to yourself and to your children)

If you want to learn more about this approach, follow Bea on Instagram and be sure to visit her website www.beamarshall.com where you can find more resources. Check out her course on Yes Parenting as well. See it HERE!

Episode 46: Parenting Differences and Triggers: How to Get to the Root Cause and On the Same Page with The Uprooted Podcast

This month I had the privilege to be a guest on The Uprooted Podcast - where a happily married couple John and Christine, navigate their way through life and parenting in between. In the episode I answered some questions of theirs that I am confident you will relate to as well, so I wanted to share the episode with you here on The Balanced Parent. We covered a lot of ground, but it all really centered around differences in parenting style and getting to the ROOT of why it can be so hard to stay patient & calm.

John and Christine are parents to an 8-year old girl and a 10-year old son. As parents, they are challenged by navigating parenting with no alone time and very little support system, trying to balance the needs of both of their kids, one of whom has Autism, and how to handle parenting differences & triggers in a way that reflects the deep love and commitment they have for each other. And that's why I stepped in and I so loved our talk on achieving balance in relationships and in parenting.

​Here's the overview of what we talked about:

• Window of tolerance & how it affects your ability to stay calm and connected (and how to widen it)

• Getting to the root of parenting triggers

• Problem-solving with kids

• Creating rhythms and routines that support the whole family

• Getting on the same page as partners

If you wish to learn more about how to create rhythms and routines to bring more connection and joy to your daily life, download my Step-by-Step Guide to Creating Rhythms, Routines, and Rituals Workbook (it's free!)

​And if you are ready to start parenting as a team, I just have the right tool for you.

Listen to John and Christine's journey in their podcast as well. Tune in here: theuprootedpod.com