Episode 226: Mastering Self-Trust as a New Parent with Dr. Joanna Parga-Belinkie
/In this special Mother’s Day episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, I sit down with Dr. Joanna Parga-Belinkie, a neonatologist, pediatrician, and author of The Baby Bonding Book, to celebrate the power of building a deep, lasting bond with your baby. Dr. Parga-Belinkie shares her unique experiences as both a doctor and a mother of three, including the challenges and rewards of parenting during the pandemic.
Here are the key takeaways:
Importance of intentionally building a deep, lasting relationship with your child from the very beginning of parenthood
Managing anxiety and overwhelm as parents navigate conflicting advice and expectations
Reflecting on family dynamics to deepen connections
What parents and babies truly need to build a connection in infancy
Balancing sensitivity and imperfection in parenting
Importance of responsive parenting, emotional support, and building secure attachment.
Importance of new parents recognizing their needs, especially sleep deprivation.
Balancing parenting and self-care by acknowledging and meeting your own needs
Resources:
To learn more about Dr. Joanna, visit her website jpbelinkiemd.com and follow her on Instagram @joargalinkiemd. You can listen to Pediatrics on Call, co-hosted by Joanna and sponsored by the American Academy of Pediatrics, on Spotify, Apple Music, or YouTube for the latest pediatric news and insights.
This conversation is a beautiful reminder that the bond we build with our children, no matter their age, is at the heart of what Mother’s Day is all about. Whether you’re a new mom or navigating life with older children, you’ll find valuable insights to strengthen your relationship with your kids.
Remember that building a deep, lasting bond with your child is essential, and this episode reminds us that, especially as parents, acknowledging our own needs while fostering connection with our kids is key to navigating both motherhood and life.
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hello, everybody. This is Dr. Laura Froyen, and on this week's episode of the Balanced Parent Podcast, we are kind of going to be going back to the beginning. We're going to be talking about how to build a deep, lasting bond and connection with your baby and really dig into building that skill of filtering out the noise, figuring out what actually matters for you and the child in front of you, and learning to trust yourself as a parent. So to help me with this conversation, I have lovely Dr. Joanna Parga-Belinkie. She has written a beautiful book called The Baby Bonding Book, and we're going to talk about babies. But moms and parents of kiddos who are older, I think that there's going to be really important messages in here for you too, because this is a skill we're building, learning how to really take information in, filter it through what our lens of what we know to be true and make it make sense for the family that we are raising. This is important stuff for kids of any age and just for us as humans. So, thank you so much, Joanna, for being here with us. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?
Dr. Joanna: Thank you so much, Laura, for having me on. I am a neonatologist or a baby doctor and also a pediatrician, so I take care of babies in the hospital, I take care of sick babies. I also take care of babies that are in the nursery. And I'm a mom too. I have 3 babies of my own, though they're getting bigger every year, obviously. So I have a 7-year-old, a 5-year-old, and a 1-year-old. And so that's why we're busy.
Laura: But I mean, so the professionals, we call that, the trenches, you're in the trenches, you know, I mean.
Dr. Joanna: The trenches, though I do feel like and when you come out of that first year. Things start to get a little better and so my baby is just 14 months and I, you know, I can, I feel different. You know, like we're sleeping a little better, you know, it feels I see the light and I and I've had that experience with my other two, so it's nice to be feeling like I'm maybe starting to come out of the trenches.
Laura: Yes, yeah. I mean, honestly, those 1st 5 years were a lot for me. And I know, given your, if your kiddo was 7, you were going through those, your oldest is 7, you were going through some of those years during the pandemic too, which was just a really hard time. To be going through all of the hard stuff of parenting and then plus the isolation.
Dr. Joanna: Oh yeah, it makes you reframe. I feel like that was a big reframing moment for a lot of parents. My oldest was 2, my littlest was 4 months, or my middle now.
Laura: Oh my God, not the baby. We still have the other one.
Dr. Joanna: Was 4 months when the pandemic started and so It was just a really isolating time and also a learning time about being a parent and the supports you need and the relationship you're building with your kids.
Laura: Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's talk about that relationship with our kids. I think that that is something that I hear from parents over and over as one of their primary goals as they move into parenthood is to have a deep, lasting connection with their kids. And, you know, the, the way I think about it. I don't know about you, but for me, when, when I was becoming a parent, when I was making that choice to bring another life into the world, I thought a lot about the baby, about the child, and didn't really think a lot about the relationship that I was giving birth to at the same time. And that's really what's happening, right? So you're giving birth to this, or you know, bringing in, however the baby comes into your home, you're bringing in this whole person, this whole being who will have their own lived experience, and then you're also giving birth to this relationship, right? And that's what people they, you know, the baby's development will, on some level take care of itself, but the relationship is what people are really worried about when they think about parenting and building that bond. I'm kind of curious where you are in that, like, am I thinking about it in the way that you think about it? Do you think about it differently?
Dr. Joanna: Yeah, I think about it. Like I have a lot of parents that I see in the hospital that have just had a baby and they've spent a lot of time thinking about how to get the baby into the world, right? So they have maybe a birth plan that has plus or minus been followed, and we could talk more about those if you want. And then, but, but then all of a sudden, it's like you said, Laura, they have this person. You know, and, and I feel like a lot of times people have not put a little, a lot of thought into, maybe they put a little thought into like what they want this person to be like when they grow up, but they haven't thought about like, how am I gonna interact with this person? What is, how is this person gonna change me? What does the person need for me to grow? And, and I feel like parents do need to be sort of focusing on how they're going to build that relationship before it even starts, because of the amount of parents that I see just holding this baby being like, oh no.
Laura: Now I am a human.
Dr. Joanna: Because, again, it's such a momentous occasion to give birth, right? It's joyous. It's incredible. It's a miracle.
Laura: I mean, it's a miracle to be at birth, tragic and heartbreaking too, on some levels.
Dr. Joanna: Yes, it can be tragic and heartbreaking, right? And there can be complications, things that you didn't expect to happen. So either way, right? It's this extremely emotional moment. So I get it. Like you want to be prepared for that moment. You put a lot of energy into that. And then it happens and it and and you remember giving birth, right, Laura?
Laura: Vaguely, yes, thank God for, you know, hormones that make you forget some of the stuff, but yes, yeah, I remember many details.
Dr. Joanna: I mean, I remember my, the, the three birds I had. And, and, you know, but as time goes on, you realize like that was a matter of days that I gave birth and, you know, and, and now I have this lifetime with this individual. And it's that's a little daunting to think about, right? Like how are you going to share this life and build this relationship.
Laura: Okay, so I, I think that like then parents realize this, this kind of awesome responsibility and you know, at least for the parents that I work with, and I, I think for a lot of the parents who are seeking out parenting books, seeking out parenting resources, there is this low level, maybe even high level anxiety around getting it right, and I kind of just I'm curious about. You know, there, we get a lot of messages around the right way to do things, what you should be doing. There, I think it's a very complicated time to be a new parent, and I think it gets even harder the more media access we have, the more sources of information that are floating in, you know, I think the human relationship is meant really to get a lot of guidance from the village around us, and not so much from this global like just stream like constant flow of information and should I, I just, it feels overwhelming at times, and I'm curious what you would say to the parents who are, are feeling that overwhelmed or feeling that anxiety of, I've got to do all the things, and I've got to do it perfectly, so that this relationship that matters to me goes well, goes right.
Dr. Joanna: The first thing I'll say is you have to give yourself permission to leave your busy life, unplug and just hold your baby, because how you interact with your baby shapes the person they become. And really what babies need to develop and to grow and to thrive are safe, stable, nurturing relationships, right?
Laura: And so, but it's pretty simple, isn't it? But babies need is pretty simple.
Dr. Joanna: Yeah, like when you're, when you're holding your baby, and, and I think parents feel that like, you know, you feel like you got to always be on the go, checking your phone, doing the things, right? But like when you're just sitting and holding your baby, right? And your baby's asleep, right? And they're asleep a lot in the beginning. So you're like, how am I connecting with this person who's always asleep? But if they're on you and they're skin to skin and they're, they're feeling your heartbeat and they're listening to you breathe, that is shaping their brain. That is starting to shape their responses to the world. That is giving them a sense of safety, right, of security. And so you are making a connection while they're they do so much more in their sleep than I do. You know, because in that first year, the brain is growing so, so much and making all of these new connections. So it seems counterintuitive. It's like, I think by doing less, you know, by unplugging, by giving yourself that permission, you're actually doing more to help your baby's brain grow, right? And but it's hard for us as adults, and especially parents to like cut through that noise and be able to, to spend that, that quality time with baby. Because it doesn't feel like you're, you know, it might not feel like you're doing anything, but just holding is doing so much.
Laura: It's doing so much. You know, one of my favorite, authors and writers on infant development is Magda Gerber, and she has a quote that says, do less, observe more, enjoy most. And I feel like if those like those three simple instructions are pretty like I mean, if you just do those three things every day for 10 minutes with your kids, you're gonna be on a really like good track.
Dr. Joanna: Can I tell you a story too, like with my first baby, who's now 7. I remember I was so stressed about like I have to make a baby list. You know, I've got to get all these things because these are the things that I need. People say that I have to have that I need for this baby. And as it turns out, you actually don't need them. Much stuff, you know, and I, and I was putting all this focus and all this energy into making sure, you know, I had the right wipes dispenser, making sure maybe I had the right right wipes themselves, making sure I had like one particular mama, I'm not gonna say brand names, but one particular like rocker thing versus another rocker thing and the right sandwich and and and really. And I feel like having more children helped me evolve in how I connect with my kids too, but really like when by the time I got to my third child, I mean, first of all, I did have, I amassed things this one does, right? And I pruned to the things that I felt like I really needed, which was not as much as what I had prepared for with the first, right? But, you know, I actually made a vision board for my 3rd. And I put on it the things that I felt like I wanted to do to connect with, with her, you know? And it was so freeing because I felt like as I became more of a mature parent, I was able to make this headspace to think of the things that I could do to connect with her, you know.
Laura: I really love that.
Dr. Joanna: And that is not something I do. My first favorite, I was like, oh. Yeah, like I don't, as a new parent, it's hard to not have that. Oh, you know, we talked about that earlier when you when you first gave birth in the hospital, but when I making that vision board was really Just a wonderful thing, you know, and I still look at it as I'm watching her grow, cause I'm like, oh, these are the things I really wanted to share with you. These are the values that matter to me that I wanted to show you. And like, these are the ways that I'm really trying to understand you and your personality, instead of you know, putting my expectations on you.
Laura: Yeah. Oh, I really love that, Joanna. I love that even as an exercise, you know, we think about the things we need to do before we give birth making a birth plan, you know, you know, all of those things, and that as an exercise probably would be even more impactful than making the gift registry, you know, of the things we think we need, you know, cause Oh, kids are really good at teaching us. We don't need the thing we thought we need. I think that they're very good at teaching us to like let go of expectations and shift and be flexible, you know, I don't know about you, but yes, I love, I love the idea of that exercise, even for parents who are not in that baby phase, right? So thinking about, okay, so It's easy to get caught up in my Amazon shopping cart or the way my house looks, or all of these other things. And if I strip it down, what does my vision for how I connect look like? Yeah, I really like that a lot.
Dr. Joanna: Yeah, it's really helped me to, I think, form a deeper connection with my kids, you know, not just with the baby, but with my older kids too, right? Cause it really, I took that time of pregnancy and before birth as a reflective time to think about my family, you know, and my relationship to my family and how I was going to change, because every time you have a kid, you're adding someone new to the family. So you change both a mother and your family structure changes.
Laura: All the dynamics too, right? All of the relationships that are going to be added to the family. That to a certain extent you're just watching play out.
Dr. Joanna: Like you think you have control, but you don't, you don't. I mean that and that's hard.
Laura: It is hard. Yeah, parenting is definitely a constant lesson in the art of letting go for me like it is a oh, I'm being forced to learn that lesson every day. I feel curious, so when we're thinking about how it can feel really overwhelming and feel really complicated, like these babies need so much. If we were to strip it all down, what would you say a baby and a parent need to build that bond or that relationship over their first year of life? Like, what are the, if we really strip it down, what are the basics?
Dr. Joanna: Well, and that's a great question, right? Because I think there's a tension there. There's what the baby needs and what the parent needs, and they're different things. An adult needs a different thing than a newborn baby. And so you, so it's not gonna be that everything the baby enjoys is something that you enjoy, and that's okay, right? And I have a lot of parents too that it's not love at first sight for them. You know, because of what you said, Laura earlier, like maybe there was some birth trauma that you have to work through that happened to you, you know, and so to get those to get to those feelings of love takes time, and if they're not there right away, that's okay. You know, it's it's okay to make space for that love to grow and develop. It doesn't have to be there the moment the baby comes into the world, right? Because again, remember, that's a very emotional moment and a lot of things change, in those first few weeks right after you give birth, right? So I think that's important. And, and so what the baby needs, right, is this safe, stable, nurturing relationship. They need to know that when they're trying to communicate with you, you're trying to communicate with them, and they need to know you're there for them, and they're demanding, right? Because they're not telling you this. They're just like wanting you to change their diaper, wanting you to feed them, needing to sleep, needing to be held, that's really important. I always say that you can't spoil a baby. You know, I have parents that are like, oh, this baby's so greedy. They want to be held all the time. I don't want them to get into this bad sleep pattern.
When you have a newborn baby, don't, don't, don't worry about that. They're not going to sleep like we do. Their sleep's very different. We could talk about that, like, that could be a whole pod me like how a baby sleeps. They need to be held, you know, they need that connection. They need to know you're there for them, you know, and they will take and take and take because that is what they need to grow, and their brain is just. Again, growing exponentially, right? They're just firing up. They, the brain grows more in the first year of life than at any other time, right? So they're very needy. And then you have the parent who now has this extremely needy person that can't really in words communicate, but there are other ways they'll communicate. And they, they're 24/7. They're demanding. They want you. They need you. They need you because you're, you're everything to them, you know. And, and that's why I think for the parent, the wants and needs are different. You just need support, right? Like we, we talk about, you just, you need other loving, stable relationships for yourself that are going to come in and be there for you and baby, right?
Laura: You can provide that loving, stable relationship to the, to the kiddo.
Dr. Joanna: And so you can have breaks too, like that you can't, you can't be like, you know, level 10 out of 10 love. You're adorable baby, yeah, all the time. That's just not, that's not gonna be good for you, you know, there's gonna be ebbs and flows.
Laura: I mean, I would not for the good, good for the kid either, right? Like, so I think when, when we, I think when parents and new parents especially here like that kids are babies are looking for a sensitively attuned and responsive parent. There's this perfectionist trait within us that makes us think, okay, that means I have to respond every time they make a sound. That means I have, like, if they are, you know, wanting to be held, I have to hold them 100% of the time that they are wanting to be held. And I don't, that's not from my understanding what the research says. Of course we need sensitive and responsive attunement and the simple reality is, is that we're humans, we have other things that we're doing. And so there are times where there will be mismatches, you know, where we don't understand the cry, where we don't know exactly what they need in that moment, right? And so I'm kind of curious if you can kind of relieve some of that anxiety around we need a 100% perfect, perfect, sensitive and responsive attunement versus like, what do we actually, like, what does the baby actually need in terms of you know, The fact that we are imperfect humans.
Dr. Joanna: I think they need that, you know, because we are imperfect humans and they're going to grow up to be an imperfect human as perfect as they may seem as an infant, right? And so they need ups and downs, right? They do, they do need to know that there's someone there who's going to respond to their needs and who's going to care for them. But there is sometimes, right, you have this crying baby, they've been crying, crying, crying, crying, and you've responded to the needs. You've fed them, you've changed them. You have tried to get them to sleep. You you've done everything you can think , right? Like you've gone down a checklist of, of things you can do to address crying. And they're still crying. And that's heartbreaking, right? I remember when I used to hear my babies' cries and even with the last one, it's nails on a chalkboard, especially for I feel like a mom, cause you're very hormonal at this time, you're changing a lot too.
You know, and it's okay to take a break from that. It's okay to walk away. It's not, it's not going to hurt them, you know, as long as their needs have been addressed, you don't have to be like addressing those needs every second of every of every day. In fact, you kind of want them to have some time to like process their own emotions and sort of like figure out the world a little bit on their own, or from a different person. You know, I think a lot of times parents will get upset that grandparents will do things in a very different way than they do, but that's life, right? Like there's going to be different ways that people approach things. So that's why you want to make sure it's people that you trust and that you love that are helping you care for baby, and this goes for like dads and partners too, you know, like they're going to do things a little different than you, but that's, that's actually good for your baby, you know, that that's opening baby scope of experience and help helping baby realize that, you know, there are different types of people that are going to care for them in different ways, and that's okay, because babies really just need a consistent loving caregiver and a consistent, consistent loving caregiver did not have to be mom all the time.
Laura: Right? Yeah. And that, and it doesn't mean, so when we say a consistent loving caregiver, that doesn't mean that when we're doing that, the baby is not crying, right? So there's, I think that there is this mistake that around if I've met all the needs, the baby will stop crying, and so if it's still crying. That means I haven't done something, and so I kind of frantic like frantically need to keep doing all the things until they're done. But there is a moment where the baby is crying, like, it's okay to hold them and say, oh, you have a need that I don't know, and this is hard, and I'm gonna hold you. I'm not going anywhere. And, and their tears are not a problem for you to solve, right from the very beginning. Of course, you look and you meet the needs, but I think if we can just come, come to this idea that like we're, you know, we are not in the wild. There are not predators who will be summoned by their tears, you know, by their cries, we actually can be, you know, take our time and be with them and present with them emotionally. And we don't have to know the answer to all of their tears, and our goal isn't to make them stop crying. Our goal is to be with them and figure out what they need. And sometimes that will come with a soothing of tears, and sometimes, you know, sometimes people got stuff to get off their chest, even little babies. Right?
Dr. Joanna: Yeah, the goal is not, let's stop crying. I often tell this to families that crying is, is their form of communication. They have no other words, they have no other way to voice any sort of feeling they're having, right? So we think of crying as like some form of discontent, right? I don't know if they're angry, they're mad, they're sad, they're uncomfortable. I've, I, you know, sometimes, and, and you can learn babies' cries. That's kind of interesting like as parents get to know baby. And this is like one tool I think new parents need is active listening. You know, it's like, you know, it, and, and, you know, babies around 6 weeks get cry too, right? They're again. Remember their brains are growing really fast. And, and with that kind of like excitement in their brain, you know, sometimes, you know, they're, we're not going to figure out why they're having this moment, you know.
Laura: The world is a strange and uncomfortable and new place to them too, right? I remember I used to, their bodies are new every day. Like it's just, it's all new.
Dr. Joanna: I remember I used to take, especially, I think my middle child, like, you know, we were trapped in the house a lot because of COVID, but then we'd go out for walks or we'd go into a crowd like outside where he hadn't really been exposed to that. And you could just see he was like, oh, sight sounds like other people like and and it exhausted. You know, and that he wasn't like running a marathon or, you know, doing something really physical. He was like in the stroller wheeling around being like, whoa, in the world, you know. And when you feel overstimulated, that can make you feel grumpy, you know. So, so a crying baby, but I, I love the point you touched on Laura, which is like a lot of times parents think a crying baby is their fault. Like they've done some like, but that's not true. That's, that's how the baby's trying to communicate, right? And, and I, my first baby was, I guess what you would label as colicky, right? And I didn't know because it was my first baby, so I was like I was such a how all babies were. And then I realized like, oh no, you know, yeah.
Laura: I had one, I had one of those first babies too.
Dr. Joanna: Yeah. I hear when parents have that as like their 2nd or 3rd baby, they're like, oh, this is what everyone was talking about. But I had it the first, so it's kind of nice cause, but we used to, I mean, I love music and so music is sort of one of the things that I always used to calm my kids or to teach them about the world or and so I used to, I don't, have you ever watched Phantom of the Opera? It's no longer on Broadway. It's such a throwback now, but, there's this song, The Point of No Return, and it's in, it's when Christine, one of the main protagonists in the play, goes with the Phantom of the Opera, right? So she's like taken into his layer.
Laura: And it's like shout out to the canals.
Dr. Joanna: Yeah, and is she ever going to get out, you know, this is like a big moment in the play, and I used to play that song when my baby was crying and particularly the witching hour, like we, we had evening cries very commonly, because I was like, this is it, we're at the point of an overturn. Like I, I've, I've done everything I can think of and you're gonna cry and now I you. Yeah, I'm gonna hold space for that. And sometimes I couldn't, you know, sometimes I was like, you're gonna be with somebody else. Yes, you know, or you're gonna be, you're gonna be in a safe space to cry, you know, because everybody needs a break, you know, and that's okay too. Yeah, but, but a lot of times like. Yeah, I tried to lean in and, and like you said, Laura, like be there, just be there, you know, and it would end, the crying would end, but it was hard.
Laura: Yeah, I, I love what you were saying too about this their crying be their way of is their way of communication and there's always going to be miscommunication. In every important relationship you have, there's going to be miscommunication, and even in those these moments with these young children, what better way to set them up for a healthy model of relationships? In saying like, okay, there's a miscommunication here. I'm not going anywhere. I'm gonna, you know, stay right here with you until we figure this out. Like, what a beautiful model going forward for healthy resilient relationships that can handle life's ups and downs, which is ultimately what we want out of an attachment relationship, right?
Dr. Joanna: Definitely, I mean, I think, and, and one thing we should mention, they are communicate that's a babies don't communicate with words, right? We said this already. They do communicate with behaviors and body language and gestures, right? And, and we call that a serve and return, you know, so sometimes I think of like, of caring for a baby and being with them like sort of like a game of tennis, right? And you're the instructor, you're the coach, they're on the other end of the court. A ball is going back and forth. There's no words, you know. And initially, like they're not really gonna hit the ball back to you because they can't get it over the net. It's too far. It's like too much. So they're just watching what you're doing because they can't figure this out, right? But eventually they're gonna start hitting that ball back. And, and I think for most. Families, that happens when baby smiles, you know, you hear this a lot with like the oh, the balls hit back. Like, I see what you're doing for me. I see your face. I'm starting to recognize it, you know, this is like the 6 to 8 week and I'm playing now. But in the beginning, you're just you're just trying to teach them the game, you know, and, and I love that serve in return, and, and so you want to give so that you're going to start to get back, you know, so that you're the safe person for them to be like, oh, now I'm starting to learn, I want to practice with you, because you're, you're, you're a safe space for me to practice.
Laura: Yeah. Oh, I really like that. Okay, and so I think the next question I have for you, like in terms of the for the families where maybe getting the baby into the family didn't go the way that they were thinking was hard or stressful. Perhaps there were really separations. Perhaps one of the parents is dealing with some perinatal mood disorder, you know, anxiety, depression, rage, you know, the, if we're dealing with something that's getting in the way of that connection, like, what can, what can the parent do to I don't know, be kind to themselves and and move through that phase. And come out on the other side with a good relationship with their kiddo.
Dr. Joanna: Now this is really hard. I mean, cause if you think of where I work, I'm in a neonatal intensive care unit, a lot of the time, the NICU, and so I see families have to go through this.
Laura: Yeah, my first was a NICU baby.
Dr. Joanna: Yes, it's a really special place the NICU. It's very different than other places in the hospital.
Laura: It is, it's special and can be very hard.
Dr. Joanna: Yeah, yeah. Did you, have you shared with your listeners what happened with your baby?
Laura: I'm sure I've talked about it at some point. I, we had a, I had a 3 day labor with that ended up in a baby in distress and an unexpected C-section. And then she wasn't breathing properly. Her, she had a bad second Apgar. And so she was on a CPAP for the first day of her life. So she didn't get to feed, you know, nurse right away. I had like my C-section and 3 day labor was pretty brutal on my body. Yeah, I mean, so she wasn't held or touched, and then she ended up getting an infection from the IV and had to be on IV antibiotics for a week. It was, it was a rough, we had a rough first week.
Dr. Joanna: Yeah, and that is gonna shape the how your relationship starts, you know, and it's not what you expected, it's not what anybody wanted, you know, it's like, it's just what happened. You know, and so, and I, and I think it's important we mentioned this like earlier, but you, you know, that's a trauma. And it takes time to recover from a trauma, which is why I said like, you know, it doesn't have to be love at first sight. You know, like, of course you want to be thinking about that relationship and how you're going to build that, right? Cause that's really gonna shape who your baby is gonna become, you know, but it, you know, and, and you want to be intentional, but maybe it's not gonna start on day one, you know, because you're gonna have to like over the delivery you're gonna have to maybe recover from and overcome, you know, that trauma. And and I feel like it's so important you shared your story, Laura, because I think people don't want to share that like birth can be something that's not happy, you know, so. You have to take care of yourself, right? And so, and I, and I'm, I'm always a big proponent of, of putting more awareness to maternal mental health, you know, because even if you don't have postpart depression, which I know people have heard about or thought about, 80%, this is like the majority of mothers have the postpart blues, and they don't have to have had an experience like you had, you know, it's just the act of the physical act of giving birth, right? And we have to recognize that. I remember like the first few days, and you must have felt this, especially after, after a really, really difficult delivery, right? Like you're just crying, you just cry. Anything would make you cry.
Laura: And, and even 12 years later.
Dr. Joanna: Yeah, yeah. And that, and I'm, I'm heartened by, I think the fact that there's more awareness about this, and, and mothers know that it's okay to get help, you know, I know where my place of work, you know, it used to be that mothers weren't seen until 6 weeks postpart and now they do a 4 week check, and now they'll do it in 2 weeks if they're really worried. So I think there's a shift there. Now, whether there's a shift in insurance coverage and other things, you know, we'll have to see. But I think there's a shift in at least awareness, and I'm heartened by that, you know. And cause remember the needs of the baby are not your needs, and this is, this is like a little tongue in cheek, but like, you know, the things that are really entertaining to a baby, you know, we talked about really wheeling my son out in a crowd, are not as entertaining to me, you know. I don't get to be wheeled out in a crowd, I have to walk, but you know, I've been in crowds, I've seen people, this is not like new and exciting for me, you know, it's different, right? And so. Then again, like there's just different things we need. And so I think for new mothers and new parents, you know, even if you're adopting a child or fostering, you're just bringing this new life into your life and it changes the fabric of it, right? You have to have support. I think we should get back to that. Like you have to have other people that you love and that you care about and that you trust, that are going to be helping because you can't, you can't do it all alone.
Laura: Yeah, I feel like you've said that a few times that parent. What the parent needs is different than what the child needs. And I think a lot of parents think going in is that it's my job to not have needs, that my child is this little person who is completely dependent on me and I don't get to have needs anymore. And I think I'm kind of curious about how do we shift that conversation for the new parents in our lives so that they can give themselves just a little bit more permission to have like to even just recognize themselves as beings with needs, you know, and how can we go about identifying what those needs are, especially for that parent who is feeling a little disconnected from their baby is feeling, you know, that it's not coming as naturally as they thought it was going to. Do you know what I mean? How can that parent go about recognizing that they might have some unmet needs going on?
Dr. Joanna: I think you're never gonna know exactly how you feel or what those needs are gonna be until the baby's there, right? And then you start to like establish that relationship and see. But I think it's something that we definitely have to start thinking about before we give birth, you know, and that's why I really like shifting the focus away from just like, how do I make my birth plan and get my supply list ready for baby and towards, you know, what's my vision again for this relationship and knowing that I want to support this relationship, like, what do I need to do to prepare? You know, one big pain point for all new parents, let's like take a category of sleep deprivation, right? And, and we talked, we touched on this, but babies sleep very differently than we do. They sleep for sometimes like up to 16 to 18 hours a day, but it's all in spurts, right? Like, so they don't know what it means to sleep through the night, and a lot of babies don't even know that it's 6 months and generally most maybe by a year we'll get to this pattern of sleeping at night, right? So we're talking about a year. Of time when you're just not sleeping normally, right? So I think, you know, if for new parents, like that's one need you could start to think about before you even have a baby. So how am I going to get through the night?
Laura: How am I going to get the sleep I need to be a well-functioning human?
Dr. Joanna: Yeah, because how you function at 2 a.m. is very different than how you function at 2 p.m. because you still have circadian rhythms, so you still have day night cycles. That your body wants to follow, that your baby just doesn't have, right? And so, you can think about, you know, am I gonna get, so at night, you know, if I'm breastfeeding, am I gonna get woken up all the time to breastfeed? Who's gonna change the diaper? Who's going to put the baby back down? Is it going to be me? Is it gonna be my partner or the father, you know, someone else there? Do I have the resources to get support at night, you know? Is that something I can do? I think it's hard to sleep when the baby sleeps, like that's a really difficult goal, you know, cause also like when the baby is asleep, you're like, oh, I just need a shower, you know, or like. But think about maybe like times during the day where someone else could watch babies so you could do the things that are going to fill your cup, knowing that you're going to be knocked out a little bit from sleep deprivation. And I think there's also, you know, these questions are hard that you're asking, Laura, cause there's not a one size fits all. You know, there's not like a one thing that everybody can do to make sure they're not gonna feel the worst when they're sleep deprived, you know, but, but it's this idea, at least you can anticipate it, and you can start to have plans in place so that when your brain is just different, you know, a lot of like we talk about mom brain, like your brain feels a little scrambled after you deliver memories are difficult to recall.
Laura: But that's a real thing, right? Like that's a, that's a real thing.
Dr. Joanna: I'm lucky I remembered to come to this.
Laura: I mean, I'm glad that you did. I mean, even just thinking about this though, like, the parents that I work with who have kids who are teenagers still, you know, haven't always figured out how to fully articulate. Not even articulate, but know what need isn't being met right now. I think that, especially for the women that I work with, I think we've been taught by society, by our culture for a long time to not have needs, to put the needs of ourselves behind the needs of others, and then that gets doubled down on in motherhood. And so I mean, I think even just having a conversation around like, okay, I'm a person, a human who has needs. I can't escape it. Like it, it literally is impossible to escape having needs, you know, how am I gonna go about making sure that my needs are met. So, you know, I mean, often parents need to hear. I think that my, it's important for my needs to be met so that I can meet the needs of my kids, right? Like that, put your own oxygen mask on first thing. I mean, at the same time, like, you could also just put your own oxygen mask on because you need oxygen, because you're a human, you know what I mean? Like there's like we get to have our needs met just because we're the human beings, you know, like what I mean, like we're just, we are worthy of that.
Dr. Joanna: You want to teach your child, you know, that like they It's interesting, like when that flip that switch flips for women, you know, because like you, you also want your child to know that their needs are going to be met, like part of your whole job of parenting is like you have needs, I'm gonna help you meet them, like we're gonna get through this, you know, and then like when you're an adult, people stop. Doing that, like you still needs, they still need to be met, you know, they just evolve over time and like the needs of a newborn are different than the needs of a teenager, but they still again need those safe, stable, nurturing relationships to kind of like explore those needs and to like have those needs grow with them, you know, but, but I agree. I mean, we need to be talking more about how you're gonna be a different person after you have a new human in your house that you're helping to raise, but you're still yourself, you know, and like the things you enjoyed before, I mean, that might change. Like, I don't like to do late nights out, you know, dancing, even though I love music, you know.
Oh, just cause I'm tired. But, but I still, you know, I still need, you know, those maybe more early nights out where I'll go out and I'll dance. You know, I love now when I get invited to a good wedding because I don't get invited as much anymore. But, you know, but it, it shifts, right? Like I don't need to be out till midnight. Like I'm happy to come home at 10, you know, but I still like the things I liked and it is hard because you're carrying so much of a, a mental load again of like being a parent and thinking about everybody else, and you're not going to be able to not think about like your kid, you know, like that's going to happen, but you shouldn't have to feel guilty that you also need to do something that's outside of what they need.
Laura: Yeah, you know, I think that's really a really important message for parents of you know, all ages that the relationship that we're forming with our kids is really important. It is, and you are important too.
Dr. Joanna: Yeah, it's a formative relationship. It's gonna be one of hopefully the most important relationships in your life. You know, and, and again there, and, and I always think too like I get sad when people don't like the newborn period, which I totally get that some people are just not gonna be into it, right? Obviously like my whole career now is is centered around babies, so I love it. I'm in, but it's such a short time, you know, it really is this little like blip of time and then you're gonna have this adult, you know, and you're gonna spend the most amount of time with this adult. And who's the adult that you wanna hang out with? You wanna hang out with a dynamic adult that's got a lot of interests, that likes to do fun things that maybe you like to do, you know, maybe you can get them into some things that you like to do. But that wants to hang out and that wants to spend time with you and that values relationships that are important in their lives and that, you know, and where you can share love, you know, I think that's the goal and that goal doesn't change from the newborn period to when they're 2025, 30, you know, like, and so, so this is a, this is not you. This is someone else and it's your relationship, right? So that's really important to think about.
Laura: I love that, Joanna. Thank you so much. I know, you know, the listeners are going to want to know where they can find you and learn more from you. I know you've got a great, you know, a great podcast. And so will you share with us where they can can learn alongside you?
Dr. Joanna: Yes, I am a spokesperson for the American Academy of Pediatrics, and so I co-host their podcast, Pediatrics on Call. And so there we talk about kind of the latest pediatric news and other things, and you could find that on Spotify, on Apple Music, and anywhere where you get, podcasts. We're also on YouTube as well. I have an Instagram handle if you want to follow me. It's at joargalinkiemd. I just put my names together. Not that that makes it easier.
Laura: I'll have all the links in the show notes for sure. Don't worry.
Dr. Joanna: I do try to share kind of my own parenting journey in that too, and certainly, a lot about babies and keeping your baby healthy and safe, so you could build a relationship with them.
Laura: Beautiful. Thank you so much for for your time and for your expertise. It was lovely chatting with you.
Dr. Joanna: It's so lovely to talk to you, Laura. Thank you so much for having me.
Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.
And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too.
All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!