Episode 225: Parenting Big Kids and Tweens: Unique Needs of Middle Childhood with Dr. Sheryl Ziegler

In this episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, Dr. Laura Froyen is joined by psychologist and author of the book The Crucial Years, Dr. Sheryl Ziegler, to explore the often-overlooked stage of middle childhood—the years between early childhood and the teen transition. Dr. Ziegler discusses why this age group is so unique and how parents can better understand and support their big kids and tweens.

Here’s a summary of what we discussed:

• Why middle childhood  (ages 6-12) isn't a parenting break and how to stay engaged during the "easy" years

• Balancing relaxation and connection as kids grow toward adolescence

• Importance of being intentional and curious during middle childhood

• Teaching mood regulation and managing big feelings

• Navigating differences in family values and social pressures as children make new friends

• Setting and enforcing boundaries around technology use for kids

Resources:

• The Crucial Years: The Essential Guide to Mental Health and Modern Puberty in Middle Childhood (Ages 6-12)

• Mommy Burnout: How to Reclaim Your Life and Raise Healthier Children in the Process 

If you’re looking to connect with Dr. Sheryl and learn more about her resources, visit her website drsherylziegler.com and follow her on Facebook @drsherylziegler, Instagram @drsherylziegler and Twitter @dysherylziegler. You can also check out her podcast, Dr. Sheryl’s PodCouch.

Remember, these years are pivotal for building strong, supportive relationships with your kids, and staying engaged during this stage can set the foundation for their future well-being.

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TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello everybody. This is Doctor Laura Froyen, and on this week's episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we are going to be talking about the crucial years, the years of middle childhood, the years that honestly, I feel like we have been flying solo on. I hear from so many of you with kiddos in this age. They're out of early childhood, but they're not yet teenagers. And honestly, we're a little lost, and I've been right there with you. I've got a kiddo who is almost 10. And a kid who is 12, and I've got to say, right when they hit 7 and 9, I was like, what is going on and why is there nothing for me? I had, you know, my background to fall back on and lots of great support around me, but I'm not alone in this. I hear this from moms all the time, and I am so glad to be able to introduce our guest for you today because she's written the book that's been missing, and I'm just so delighted. So Dr. Sheryl Ziegler, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you. Will you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do before we get into it?

Dr. Sheryl: Yes, thank you for that introduction because that is pretty much how I felt as well. And so it's so fun to hear somebody say that, and I promise we didn't set that up. So I am a licensed clinical psychologist. I've been in private practice in Denver since, well, over 20 years. And, my first book was Mommy Burnout and that was because I saw these moms coming in, bringing their kids in, and they were saying the same things over and over around themselves, like, oh my gosh, you know, is there anything more to this? Why don't I feel fulfilled, or I feel like I don't know what I'm doing.

Laura: I didn't think it would be like this. 

Dr. Sheryl: I didn't think it was gonna be like this for sure. And those were kids that were, they could have been 3 years old, 69. So the theme that I was picking up there and you know, teens are a whole other thing. We all kind of feel like the, the playing field gets real even when they become teens. But before that, I think when if you are feeling lost or challenged or struggling with something, you kind of can feel alone, and maybe not talking about it as much. So that was my first book, that was an observation. And then when the pandemic happened, and we actually hit not just a youth mental health crisis, but a youth mental health state of emergency, I thought to myself, I need to do something, I want to respond to this. And at first, cause I work with a lot of tweens and teens. At first I was thinking teens because the emphasis again was so much on teens. But within my own practice, like I never closed for one day. I don't, I, you know, manage a private group practice and we were open the whole entire time. We just went to telehealth and by May of 2020, I was sitting in the park across the street. Like I was seeing people outside in camping chairs. And that's how we were doing therapy throughout the pandemic. And there were, there was a constant theme that again became really apparent to me, which was, yes, the teens were struggling, not all the teens were struggling because they are very comfortable communicating on screens and things like that. 

So some of my teens were struggling, some of them were hanging in there and doing okay. It was the younger kids that were and sort of a, you know, between me sort of thinking about what am I gonna do in response, and then someone sent me a podcast and it was about, oh my gosh, we're in this pandemic and now endocrinologists are seeing all of these 7,8,9 year olds coming in with earlier puberty. And someone sent it to me and said, why aren't you talking about this? This is what you do, because I have been doing a mother-daughter, that's what I call it, because it is mostly moms, but, you know, a parent-child puberty class for 12 years at the time, it was like 10 years and I was like, bingo, this is it. So this book came out of a need where I saw the hole. There was just a hole, right? 0 to 5, like you said, we all are so clear what's supposed to be happening every single milestone. If you go into a pediatrician's office, right? They've got the checklist and everybody's like so on top of it. And then there's, it goes silent and as you know in our field. We call it the forgotten years. They're just quiet. Freud called it latency. It's like this that goes underground. You're supposed to just enjoy. Oh yes, you're not a child isn't supposed to be sexual. Everything's repressed. Everything's calm. They're in school now. Parents can take a breather. Maybe they go back to a side hustle, maybe they go back to work, but they do something. And then you gear yourself up for middle school and high school years that you think are going to be hell, right? Like, and so I'm really writing this book to say, oh my gosh, wait, let me sound the alarm on all of the incredibly important things and opportunities that exist between 6 and 12. 

Laura: Right? And it's not like the, you know, I want to make sure our listeners know too that. It's not like we're just giving you more to worry about, right? But these, they're like, we're like, we're already seeing these things come up. I just had coffee with a friend this morning and we were talking about your book and talking about this interview. And so she has a child who just turned 10. We are, we had our babies a month apart, and we've been friends since we were pregnant. And we were really just flabbergasted by the lack of information, and, and like the, the sense that many of our kids peers, parents are, are in this place where they're taking the breather. You know, they're like, yeah, like, yes. Okay. So we knew that 5 and under, that was going to be really hard. Now the kids are in school. We're gonna just kind of coast until we get to those harder years. And neither of us want to be there. We've got kids who are kind of demanding that we don't, they're not letting us take that breather, right? They are, you know, they need more support. And a lot of the parents that I work with have kids, right, in that age range. And so, I'm kind of curious about what is it that we thought we maybe didn't need to be so, you know, what is, what, like, what's the seductive lull about? Like, why does it make us think we can just kind of, you know, coast. That happens here and like, what should we be doing instead? Do you know what I mean? 

Dr. Sheryl: Oh, I totally know what you mean. Yes. I mean, I want to say this again, like, or, or just want to say it. The coasts and the like, ah, kickback feeling, like I get it. I'm not judging it because your kid is finally, right, like they are out of the house. Like they're out of the house for just the right amount of hours, right? And you are dropping off now at birthday parties, not staying. You're dropping them off at gymnastics. You don't have to stay. Like I've had, I remember to the day, the first time I did a drop off, and it was a gymnastics party. That's probably why I just said that. And I remember there was a coffee shop next door and I was like, wait, I get to like go next door and I don't have to like it blew my mind. Like the feeling. 

Laura: I can still remember the first walk that my husband and I went on, feeling really comfortable and confident leaving our kids alone at home, and we walked around our neighborhood and ended up in a coffee shop and we were like, what is happening? This is amazing. 

Dr. Sheryl: It was so amazing. I remember this, this went on for a few summers. I would have a fantasy at the pool. Like when I would see those moms laying out and like reading a magazine or reading a book and like literally not even like seeming to have a care in the world, and their kids were just like jumping and diving and running around and I was like, like that's never gonna be me. That's never gonna happen. When is this gonna happen? Like deep down, the feeling was so intense of like going to the pool was so much work, right?

Laura: I have 3 kids, physical work. 

Dr. Sheryl: It's a little bit like when they're younger, you're like kind of on edge, right? You're like, oh my God, I can't take my eyes off of them. And then you've got dads who are like throwing them up in the air and they're flipping around. I'm like, wait, I think that's too much. Like all those things. And so here you are now, right? If you're, if you're resonating with what we're talking about, you're in this, you're in the zone of like your kid doesn't need constant supervision. Your kid's gone for hours at a time. They're at school, they've got teachers, they've got coaches, they've got other people in their lives. And it's the now what. And so I would say what, what parents maybe don't fully appreciate is how much development really is going on right now and how I call this the golden age of opportunity because it's, because it's the last time, at least throughout their childhood. That you will ever have this much influence over their lives.

Laura: There’s a lot of opportunity.

Dr. Sheryl: There's a lot of opportunity. They still think you're like the smartest person ever if they have a question on homework. Like, you probably know the answer. That makes you so smart, right? And they still go to you for advice and they still talk to you and they still want to hold your hand and cuddle and watch movies with you. Like, you're still like their favorite person on the planet. And it's so beautiful. And I think the reason why adolescents can feel like such a shocker, no matter how many times you've been warned, it still is a shocker. It's just because you really do go from like cuddles and snuggles and like losing baby teeth and holding hands to like, get out of my room, close the door, and no, I'm not really telling you about my day. And it feels for some parents like, whoa, that happened really fast. 

Laura: Okay, so I have this, I have this question about finding a place of balance between getting to catch our breath, right? Okay, so the full on nature of early childhood is over. We can relax a little bit, be less vigilant. We can just catch our breath. And then how do we balance that with also wanting to stay connected so that we are not blindsided by their sudden teenagerhood. So we don't wake up one day and realize like, oh gosh, man, I don't even know that I know them in the way that I used to. I, when they were 5, I knew their favorite toy, and now I'm not entirely sure what they're even reading, you know? 

Dr. Sheryl: Absolutely. You might not even entirely know all their friends. You might not even know all of their families. 

Laura: So how can we find a balance there for us?

Dr. Sheryl: Absolutely. I think this is where, what I'm about to say, I think is where parents dream of being. This is the very cool six year stage where you get to have conversations, where you get to talk about things like morality. And ethical dilemmas and what ifs. It's not anymore like, no, you don't hit, you know, friends over the head with toys, put the toy down, right? That's like more concrete. We don't hit, we don't bite, right? We don't steal, we don't like those kinds of things maybe like 0 to 5, like, put that down kind of thing. 6 and up, right? I like, huh somebody left you out. How'd that make you feel? Do you think what's going on with them? How do you think they would have felt if you would have done that, right? It's so cool. This is your time. This is your opportunity to be like, huh I wonder what if, what would you do? This is what I would do. So A. Adults are real comfortable with that. There's less, like 0 to 5.

 There is like, you know, I'm a fan of like, come on, get on the floor, play with them for a little, don't have to do it all day, but, you know, and there's so many parents that tell me I'm not comfortable with that. But 6 and up, like, yeah, you can go in the backyard and like throw a ball, kick a ball, you know, in the beginning part, you're still going to the playground, but it's not like you're monitoring them on high alert like they're gonna fall. Like it's more like watch me, look how cool and they're doing something crazy and you're like, whoa. And so I think I want parents to hear that you, if you have a kid, and I get it, some parents might have a 7 year old and a 3-year-old. It's like, so they're straddling both, but focusing on a kid in the 6 to 12 range, this is your sweet spot. They're not probably talking back a ton to you yet. 

Laura: They're trying it on. They're trying it out maybe a little bit, but yes, yeah. 

Dr. Sheryl: Yes, and you're going to establish, if you do this with intention. You're going to establish your boundary and your tolerance for tone, for words that are used, for, you know, crazy jumping off, you know, this, that and the other, like, you're going to establish it if you do it with intention, and you're going to set the bar for how much pressure or how high am I gonna set the bar for you? You know, like 0 to 5, it's just like love, nurtured, attachment, bonding, and safety, love, lots and lots of oozing love, right? And sure there's boundaries, but I think they're a little easier for us because they're more concrete, right? Like don't run into the road. 

Laura: Here's the stop sign, you know, versus the gray areas that we have to prepare these kiddos to start. Navigating as they move into the teen years, right? 

Dr. Sheryl: Absolutely. And this book is like the roadmap to the healthier teen years. Like that was a working title I played around with. Like this is like parents will say, oh, there's no guide, there's no guide for this. Actually, there really are some guides. I'm not saying they're always easy, but there really are guides. In this guide, I worked so hard at making it. As little politicized as it could be, I tried to make it just this, there's a couple of times in there like in bold. I'll be like, this is just child development, right? This isn't an opinion, this is what this is this the way children have been developing. This, this isn't a theory like 6 to 12. This is an established true developmental phase. We just don't talk about it. And I really am convinced that if we can do this well and with some intention, I'm not saying the word right. Do it right. There's no right. The, the right way is just to be like, okay, I get to shift my role, and as opposed to thinking of it as like, kick back and relax, it's just like, this is my sweet spot. 

Laura: Like, I like almost like savor. 

Dr. Sheryl: This is probably the most enjoyable. Like I personally love, love, love babies, right? And but not every, not everybody does, but B, as much as I can tell you, I absolutely love babies so much. I also, I'm not, I'm not forgetting the absolute exhaustion. That came with having babies, actual babies, right? That's sleep deprivation, all that. 

Laura: It's so unidirectional, right? We're pouring in. Whereas what you're talking about, the the conversations that you're suggesting, like approaching our kiddos in this age range with a lot of kind of curiosity, kind of this sense of you're becoming who you are, reveal yourself to me. Like, and then there's this suddenly like there's some reciprocity coming in where you're curious about them, maybe they're curious about you. You get to share a little bit of what you're thinking, how things were for you. They're interested in how things were for you and how it's different to know and you know, like I mean, I, I hear what you're saying that there's this element of the connection looks different, but it still needs to be there and be there with intention and to really enjoy the fact that they, these kids are in a stage where they are being revealed to themselves. They are trying on new things, they are trying on new personalities and likes and interests, and you get to be there for that. You get to hold it with curiosity and an open hand to just kind of see what emerges for them. It's lovely. I love, I mean, there's definitely specific challenges in this age range, but I have, I really enjoy spending time with my kids at this age. 

Dr. Sheryl: Absolutely. And I think, like, I love how you're describing it because it's so fun for me to hear. Like, you know, because again, I've never sat around with my friends and reflected upon this age of 6 to 12, but I did that with toddlers and babies and teenagers. I mean I would tell my friends do that, you know, now because we're like, why is there nothing to tell us what to do? You know, yes, and then what to do, you know, like that was so fun for me to hear. You say that because yes, even if your kid isn't saying, oh, tell me what 2nd grade was like for you or what was 5th grade like for you, right? But it's easy to infuse it because we actually have real memories. So 0 to 5, we like have 1 or impressions onions or a picture or story that's been handed down. And personally, kindergarten and 1st grade, I have such limited memories. I know what the classroom looked like. I know my teacher's name, maybe one or two highlights or low lights from those two years. 2nd grade, I'm remembering more. And if I keep going up, it's like, oh yeah, I remember more from 3rd. I remember more from 4th, 0, 5th, for me, 5th grade, the challenger explosion happened, like, you know, like, you remember some main things, but that that's what's so cool is you can actually really relate because these things, even though, yes, there's some new new things, social media technology, all that stuff, but you can really relate. 

Now when they fast forward to even middle school, we're starting to relate less. We didn't have vaping in middle school, we didn't have so much tech. We weren't taught on computers and then high school is like so different. In so many ways from what we experienced. So it's like also just savor the childhood part of middle childhood. Like they are children. They are not toddlers, right? They're not adolescents yet. They're not teenagers. They're children. And it's so cool because you can still play and giggle and cuddle and laugh and there's tooth fairies and Santa Clauses and Easter bunnies and those kinds of things. And there's also this developing morality and cognitive explosion, and they're learning math and they're learning to read, and they're having real social interactions that they have to think through. And to me, it's just magic. But we have to just, all we have to do is stop and be intentional about what we want to do with these years because they are their years, but we are still very much shaping them. 

Laura: Okay. So I just want to pull out what for the listener, but we've talked about. So the one there is really dropping into kind of curiosity and enjoyment, really being present and seeing this as an opportunity. Now, this next piece is around being intentional. Just really, so what, when we are thinking about, okay, so I want to be intentional during this time period, because there's still a lot of shaping. If you could give me like the top three things that you want parents to be aware of and to approach with intention, what would, what would they be?

Dr. Sheryl: Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm literally opening the book because because there's a lot, so I'm mean, I'm gonna say I love that 3 things. The first, I just pulled the number out of the hat, you know, how the top 3 things to think about. So I would say number 1 is mood regulation. So it doesn't matter to me who your kid is, right? What their personality is like, what their interest is like, blah blah blah. They're all gonna experience mood dysregulation at some point. Some kids are a lot more than others. 

Laura: So preach, but like I, I think, can we just even have you normalize again because I, hear from parents. All the time they are suddenly so moody. Like, what, so expect mood dis regulation. Why is that happening at this age, you know, 6 to 12. Why are we seeing that mood disregulation more and more. 

Dr. Sheryl: Yes, so there is like, there's a couple of things that are all colliding at the same time. So you're gonna see, you can see mood dysregulation I mean we all see it in toddlers, right? And then we expect, we expect, like, you know, 6, 7, 8, like, come on, kid, now you're too old for this. I hear that all the time. Get it together. You're too old for this. You're not in preschool anymore. Like you're too old for this. But what What happens is a couple of things. One of them is that unless they are taught, there are some kids that literally need to be taught empathy. They need to be taught how to manage big feelings. And depending on the kid, you have no idea how that kid's home deals with big feelings. So if it's a stop crying. You know, you got hurt, everybody gets hurt, kind of thing. Like, let's keep going. It doesn't create a lot of space for the expression of feelings that they need to not only get out of themselves, but make sense of. Why do I feel such big feelings when I don't get picked, you know, to play soccer on the playgrounds. Like, other kids just stand there, yeah, maybe they're a little disappointed. I got picked last or, you know, something like that. 

But then there's other kids who are just like, I hate you, I'm not playing with you, right? And so that's a kid as opposed to seeing them as a humongous pain, and what is wrong with them, and why aren't they getting it. They need to be taught and they're open to it. So take advantage now. So, hey, buddy, I noticed when you don't get picked on a team or someone hurts your feelings, like you get some really big feelings, almost like a volcano. And I have these images. I had them made in the in the book, like the anger volcano. Therapists use that all the time. I think. Parents need to use it, right? What's bubbling up and oh my gosh, lava's flaming out. If you can make it like an analogy like that and depersonalize a little bit from them, like you did this and you said that, but you call them pieces of lava and rocks were flying. It's a lot more approachable. It's more like their language, you know, and they can, they can go with that a little easier. And then there's the proactive piece, which is proactively, I think we don't always teach our kids when we actually have the best opportunity. Like, the best way to teach your kid regulation is not in the middle of a meltdown, right?

Laura: Of course, we don't like we don't teach a kid to swim when they're drowning, right? We hopefully teach them ahead of the time. 

Dr. Sheryl: Yes, but we tend to do this. With emotional stuff though. We do tend to wait for the tantrum, for the sad and mad feelings to then address them. So, another thing I have is just like, I updated the, the old, what I think is the old outdated, very classic though feelings chart. And I updated it and I added a couple more feelings, and I changed it to be boys and girls. And so within that, like one of your kids all, everything's fine. Just whip out some, you know, point, like ecstatic. When's the time you, what does ecstatic even mean? When's the time you felt that? You know, lonely, disappointed, frustrated. When are times you felt that? Oh, I don't know. Oh, really? When do you think there's times where I have shown that? Use anything. What about the show we were watching? Didn't that character, what do you think he was feeling? What about dad last night when he came home after a long day at work? What about, you know, whatever. And you just, again, casual, start talking about it. So my first thing. I would say is teach them mood regulation, feelings identification, feelings expression. And if you know, if you're listening right now and you're like, because I hear it all the time, I yell too much. I get frustrated myself. I don't know if I've got it so great. Learn it together. Say, I haven't mastered it myself. So, you know what, honey? I'm gonna do it with you. 

And I've got exercises in there like breathing. I mean, yes, this goes back down to breathing. And visual visualization and proactive planning and all the things that, you know, as a parent for you to tap into, what am I getting triggered by? What triggers me? Why do I handle this one situation? I'm pretty good with that. This other one, I am not so good at. What is it? Because the book, I will tell you my early readers, a lot of times they gave me feedback and said, I can't believe how much I found myself thinking about my own childhood. You know? And so we, some of us, most of us have stuff we've never thought about for a while, or we don't have resolves. So just know as a parent, when you are particularly either like insensitive, unaware, or like intolerant of certain things, there's some baggage there for you, there's something in there that isn't. Yeah, there's just some more when I say work doesn't mean every parent's got to go to therapy. It means like, take some time to think about it. And I prompted sometimes throughout I'll say pause. Think about when you were this age, what was happening in your life, right? So I would say that's number one, and it's like number one people are looking for. The next thing I would say is to really think about pressure. 

So I have a whole chapter on pressure and under pressure I have school, social, and sports. So number one stressor that kids today report when they are surveyed is school. The pressure to succeed, to perform high academically, that's, that's usually their number one. And whether we do it consciously or unconsciously, generally, parents are a big driver. Yes, once in a while there's just a kid who's got that inside themselves, right? There are kids for sure. Their temperament is like that, and I talk about temperament. But I also will say we sometimes don't realize the pressure we put on kids. So I would say pressure, and then that pressure applies to either their academics. It could be their sports, right? How intense are you about sports? Is your approach to quote coaching or cheerleading on the sideline, is that effective for your kid? You know, and then there's the social piece that how in touch are you with who your kid is friends with? If they're being bullied, are, are they the bully? Are they not quote a bully, but are they just sometimes not nice? How do they deal with not nice people for them? Stay really closely connected with their social life and think about the pressures, appreciate the impact that social. Social media and other, and again, social media for everybody listening, YouTube counts. YouTube is social media. 

So, you know, if you're listening and you're like, my kids are not on social media, I don't mean like Snapchat or TikTok. I'm thinking at first, it usually starts with YouTube, right? So what are they watching on there? Do you care to watch that? Like I just did a talk last night. And the parents were like, oh my God, it drives me crazy when my kid just wants me to watch all these videos. And I'm like, me too, because I've, you know, my kids are 17, 15, and 12, and the 15 and 17 year old, all they want me to do is watch this video, watch this video, watch this TikTok, right? And I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so fatigued and I gotta get my reading glasses and it's like a. Whole thing. But I would say that I do have a tolerance for it. I allow for it because it's their world. Whether I like it or not, part of their world, it's not their whole world, but part of their world is online. So I'll be like, all right, sometimes I'll say like, sometimes I'll say just one. that's all I can take, bud. Just. You could show me one. Sometimes I'll say, you know, I'll get into it. I mean, I'll be like, oh my gosh, I could sit and watch these TikTok dances all night long. So, but allow yourself to get into that world. So that would be my second piece of advice, but I will pause because I've been talking for a long time. 

Laura: Well, I have a question about the social pressures. So I feel very curious about how to handle, this is something that my mom friends and I have been talking about, how to handle. Differences in families. So when our friends start making friends outside of our friend group, where, you know, we have maybe, you know, this is what's happening in this age range, right? So maybe in the early childhood we have had a lot of control over who their friend group is going to be, because most of the time the parents are hanging out, like we know who the kids are, we are friends with the parents, you know, and now they're starting to branch out and they're branching out into you know, families that do things differently with like no like no like judgment, but like maybe they're a gaming family, or maybe they're a family who's super into, you know, like, like trends and beauty stuff and the kid, you know, the kid's wearing more makeup or has dip nails that, and then we aren't expecting our 10 year old to have dip nails. You know, like we're just, you know, we're just like they're dipping a toe in different styles of families and it's fine, but like how do we navigate our kids experiencing some of those differences and And wanting to start a line in ways that are outside of our what we were thinking we would be doing with our families. 

Dr. Sheryl: Yes, I so love that question because we all know it. Like, my line is always like, yep, that's what they do in their family, and our family does it different. You know, and you, if you, if you're listening and you have not yet experienced this, you will experience this. You know, oh, you know, Katie gets to go have a manicure. Oh, she gets that Starbucks like every day after school. And yes, Starbucks starts like, in my opinion, it seems to be about 3rd grade. You know, oh, so and so gets to, you know, whatever, do this, that and the other. They have these clothes and they have these shoes and they have an iWatch.

Laura: So and so's mom doesn't make them wear a helmet when they ride their scooter, you know.

Dr. Sheryl: Oh yes, the helmet thing, big one. They don't have to wear. No one's wearing a helmet. 

Laura: It's not no one's in a booster seat anymore. I'm the only kid in my class who's in a booster, you know. 

Dr. Sheryl: Yes, and my kids were teeny tiny, so I was like, well then start eating and you got to wait till you grow because sorry you're not. 

Laura: Sorry you are staying in a booster. 

Dr. Sheryl: Totally. So and so sits in the front seat, right? That's another thing that happens in this stage. So and so sits in the front seat and you're like, ah, well, you're like 60 pounds and Whatever. We're in 2nd grade. 

Laura: It’s against the law. 

Dr. Sheryl: Yes, it's against the law. You're too light. The airbags could hurt you. You can have your whole list of things, but at the end of the day, what matters the most is your steadfastness. Okay. I will not waver. If you show your kid you might budge, like. Okay, you can sit in the front seat or not in the booster because we're just going around the corner. We're just going to the store.

Laura: That's on my front of the door. 

Dr. Sheryl: Yes, you did, and they will see that. They're looking for consistency just like they were when they were babies and toddlers. They just didn't have the words to say, but you let me that one time. Right, but you know it because even as a baby or toddler, right, when they, when they don't want to just watch one show and so they start melting down, if you give in, they're like, sweet, after every show I'm gonna meltdown because eventually I get what I want. Well, fast forward now it's you let me sit in the front seat that one time. And so now I'm gonna push it. Now, is there the exception where your kid really is so great, they understand it was just an exception, only this one time and they're never gonna bug you. There's always, but I will tell you that's really a minority of kids. That's really an exception. 

For the most part, because their brain is under massive development. It's just looking for patterns, and it's looking to learn. It's like really seeking out. So you're gonna get that. And so what my answer is, is, know your values, know your values. There's, we're starting at the perfect place 6,7,8. These are the conversations, helmets, seat belts, whatever, the whole thing. But then 9, 10, 11, now we're gonna get into, I want a sleepover at so and so's house. Well, I don't know those parents or maybe those parents use recreational marijuana. Maybe they have gummies in their house. Do you know? You don't know unless you ask. And even if you ask, you still might not know, they might, you know, they might have guns in their house and, you may or may not feel comfortable with that. So I have scripts in the book.

Laura: Oh great. 

Dr. Sheryl: Yeah, I give people examples of literally how to ask if you have guns in your house, right? You gotta practice. So if you're listening right now I'm going, oh my God, I'm cringing inside to think like, I don't even know you, Laura, and our kids are like friends at school. They've known, they've known each other for 4 weeks or something, but they're buds and they want to have a sleepover. How do I comfortably say,  you know, hey, this is how I do. I'm just gonna bust into it right now. I like it, yeah, right. So, hi Laura I'm so excited that our, our girls seem to be just hitting it off and they're having so much fun together. He's so many good things about your daughter. Oh great. And I know they want to have a sleepover. It sounds like they wanna sleep at your house. So I just wanna talk to you openly about the way things are, at least at our house, at our house, we, we don't have any drugs in our house. There's no, you know, older brother, if there is, if I ever have them over, I don't have him have friends over and we personally, we don't have guns or we do have, we have one gun, and we have a safe and there's a lock, and it is locked and safe all the time. And we don't let the kids don't, you know, go into our bedroom where it is. I just want to let you know that about our house. I'm happy to answer any questions too, and I'm wondering if you'd be comfortable sharing, you know, those kind of things, what goes on in your house. Now, how did that feel to you?

Laura: I mean, for me, it was lovely. And for me, my like, my policy within myself has always been if a parent is uncomfortable with that conversation or gets defensive or is offended by that, to me, that's a little bit of a red flag because I want us having a mutual understanding that we both really care about our kids. We both really want all of our kids to be safe. And like I, what I want for my kids is a community of parents who are all looking out for them, right? And so, like, if it's uncomfortable, like if there is defensiveness, that is a like a ping in my red flag, you know. 

Dr. Sheryl: Absolutely. And you're right. Like, I like sometimes to role play it out because I say, how did it feel to you? Did it make you feel uncomfortable? Did you think it came across as too pushy?

Laura: No, it made me feel excited. Like I was like, oh great, this person has aligned values, this person cares about their child and about my child. Like, that made me feel very good, very happy.

Dr. Sheryl:  And I, and for the listener that's like, why did you slip in the whole thing about a big brother? Well, we know. Things around sexual abuse and sleepovers and maybe unknown older young men. And so again, I don't even know if you've got, you know, in your house, like that's even better that I don't even know if you have an older son. So this isn't personal, right? That's the message. Like this isn't even personal. It's just, if you happen to have an older brother, I mean, I remember for me when my kids were younger, that was like almost top of mind. Like, is there an older brother in the house because let's get real, I'm not going to know him. And is he gonna, are they friends? 

Laura: Yeah, no, I mean, and then it's, you know, I think lots of parents also just have a, a blanket no sleepover policy or sleepovers only happen at our house policy, and you know what, that's okay too. So I feel curious about the how we navigate this with their peers, their friends, that like, maybe aren't our favorite people, but we want to keep them close, you know, we want them to, you know, we want our kids, you know, cause our, our, we don't want to push them, our kids away because they think we don't like their friends, or, you know, like, how do we help them see who is a good Friend who's being kind to them, you know, and start to set boundaries for themselves. I feel like the social piece is a, is a big one, especially like I, you know, I have girls and so like this is coming up a lot for my girls. 

Dr. Sheryl: Oh yes. Oh yes. If you have a girl 3rd grade and up, this is very likely an issue for you. So, yeah, maybe I'll make this like the 3rd thing, which is, okay, you've gotten into my head that I'm like really instilling our values, right? Cause you really, really are. I will say that there are ways to model for them that are so healthy. So instead of saying, which I've heard parents do, so I know what happens, yeah, you know, I'm not like a huge fan of, you know, whoever, Josephine. And I don't really know. I don't, she doesn't need to be over here any more than she needs to be, right? Like someone's like coming across as like, she's not my favorite. That's actually not very helpful for your kid. And on so many levels. A, you're not even being specific. B, I don't even know, then what does that mean about me? Because I do like Josephine, or at least I'm attracted to Josephine that about me? To me that you don't like, you know. Right. So do I have to hide this from you now? Do I, can I, can we be open? So I would suggest even for somebody. Who feels like hardcore, that they don't want their kid to hang out with. I don't know how I made up Josephine, but Josephine, you know, I think it's more helpful to say something more like what you were saying. 

Like, you know, I noticed when you had Josephine over, it felt like she was treating you in a way that made you feel uncomfortable. I noticed she would tell you what to do or what to. Watch, or, she used a lot of screen time up and I saw you sitting there seeming to want to do other things. And it's okay. We all, everybody's different. People like to play and hang out and even be on screen time in different ways. So I'm thinking Josephine might be, and then you just fill in the blank. give grace too though. That girl might, she might look totally different a year from now, 6 months from now. They're changing, right? I haven't talked that much about puberty, but inherent in this middle childhood age is that at the very least, puberty will have started. It might not have finished, but it will have started, which means massive roller coaster of emotions and changes in interests and moods and all those things. So, you know, just say it like that, be specific. I noticed that Josephine, I mean, I've heard this one a lot. I don't know if other people have. I'm sure they have cause I hear it a lot. They'll have a friend that'll come over and they'll just sit on their phone the whole time. And it's like, I noticed when Josephine came over, she brought her phone and she was on it a lot and therefore either you were then on your phone a lot or you were staring at a screen or you looked bored. Yeah, and then they'll be like, yeah, she did do that. She does do that sometimes, but I still like playing with her. Cool. I get it. You still like playing with her. It just seems like maybe like if it's a sleepover, that's just too long or a long play date. Maybe the next time she comes over, we just do it for a little shorter amount of time. So be creative. Maybe the kid comes over for a short amount of time. Maybe they just come to your house for a while. 

Maybe you just go meet them out. Oh, Josephine, let's go meet her for ice cream. Right? So you don't have, don't, unless it's toxic, hurtful, truly detrimental, that's of course different. But if it's more in the gray, which is probably what it's gonna be, like, it's not my favorite thing. I don't love this, get creative because the second you block a kid from their life, unless they need to be. You all of a sudden have set up a dilemma for your kid where they have to decide whether to lie to you, tell you the truth, you know, sneak behind your back, and you don't want to set that up. This is again, a golden age of opportunity. We're not gonna love every kid's friend, boyfriend, girlfriend, interests. We're not going to, but we have to find the middle balance and you save the, I'm throwing a red card in. This is a full. This kid's not coming over ever again. You save that for truly, truly red stop, red flag, full stop situations. Other than that, this is where the learning occurs. 

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. I also think about too, like, how can we set those kids up for success? Because we have no idea necessarily what's happening, what type of guidance they're getting. Maybe they're hungry for an opportunity to have a boundary around their phone. Like, when my kids have friends over, we have a pretty firm no screen unless you are like making a movie, like unless they've got like scripted and worked on a movie, otherwise we're not doing screens. And now the kids walk in and they just drop their cell phones off in our kitchen drawer where we all keep our phones, like where the chargers are. And there's not a lot of arguing. The phones stay in the kitchen, so if you need to text your mom, you come to the kitchen and you text where I'm hanging out, you know, and that's just the rule. And I mean, so maybe they're hungry for a little bit of a boundary, you know, maybe they need someone else in their, you know, an adult in their life who's a soft landing place, you know, who is going to see the good in that and like. You know, what's going on that maybe they're pushing the boundaries of things that you don't like, you know what I mean?

Like that kind of curiousness too, and it's an opportunity to get to know our kids. Like, what is it about this friend? This friend seems so different than all of your other friends. I'm really curious. Like she's really like, you know, she stands out to me. What is it about her that you are really intrigued by, you know, that you really like, you know, what does she bring to the table for you, and not in a like I'm trying to argue against her way, but in a like, you know what, you are seeing something there, and I value your opinion, you know, coming to our kids from that place.

Dr. Sheryl:  And I want you to trust your own gut and I want you to listen to your gut, yeah, yeah, I love because I love that too, and I will say that. The other thing that happens is like if, if everybody knows that the rule at your house is you come in, you put, you know, the phone here, and we pretty much leave it there, right? You're also modeling. There's so much modeling we do, positive, negative, conscious, unconscious, and so you're model. for them like, hey, here's what it's like to set a boundary, and here's what it's like to respond when someone wants to push up against the boundary. And here's how to do something kind of hard. Like, personally, I will tell you like I have 3 kids and they have probably never been to someone's house where a parent has said, The phone goes here, right? And then, but you know, that's, so they're not gonna see that a lot. And like my daughter, who is 17, had a party, a high school party, and we were here. It was like, everybody knows, adults are here. There's a party. Here's the deal. Anyone who drove, you put the keys in the basket. Anyone who tells me they didn't drive, I needed to see the Uber, right? Because these kids Uber and whatever and There was only one kid, and so he stands out for me that came in and said, Hi, Mrs. Ziggler, here's my keys. Right? And I'm like, that's a kid with a lot of clear boundaries and clear values in the house. The other ones I had to be like, Hey, I think you drove. I'm pretty sure that's your car out there. I need your keys, right? And, oh, and they, yeah, like, you know, they forgot. And so that was good though because it set the tone like, no, this really is, this isn't a rager, this is a party. 

Everyone's dressed in costumes, have fun. Don't take advantage of. me though, don't, if you push a boundary, I'm gonna be right there, right? And that's fast forward. So that's, I didn't mean to do that on purpose, but that's part of the book, which is like, do it now or it's drop the cellphone in the basket, 9, 10 year old, because fast forward to when they're 16, 17, and now you're having, you're bravely having a party and you're like, you as a parent have to first of all, be comfortable to say, here's the basket, drop the key. Right? And you also have to know what's going to happen when the kid's not comfortable doing that or wants to literally lie to you and say, oh no, I got dropped off by a new bird. No, I'm pretty sure I saw you pull up and park and I see keys in your pocket, right? And so you're, you're so challenged as a parent, but I think a lot of parents could find themselves in that situation and be like, really uncomfortable. So practice, the 6 to 12 is practice for your kid. It's also practice for you. 

Laura: And the, and the kids, you know, just like we always say it, that 3 year olds want boundaries because that makes them feel safe. I think, no, I don't like the reason I have the cell phone rule is because I read a study, and they were interviewing teenagers about their, their own parents and their friends' parents screen and technology policies and their use at their friend's house, and overwhelmingly, the kids who had a friend in their life whose parents limited technology when they entered the house, they overwhelmingly preferred to go to that friend's house because they knew they were going to have different interactions. They all moaned and groaned about it. Like I say, I don't like it, but I do, you know, it was a really interesting study, and I was like, boom, my kids are too, but that's definitely going to be my rule.

Dr. Sheryl: Exactly. I mean, I love it. It's it's great. I mean, you're gonna have to deal with this. I, I had a client who was having a a 9 year old birthday party sleepover and, she let, you know, we talked about it and she's like, you think it's okay? I could tell all the parents, like, we're not, you know, in their cases, not everyone had a phone, but everyone had an iPad. And apparently kids bring their iPads.

Laura: I can't even, I can't even believe it yep, and so. 

Dr. Sheryl: She had, I don't know how many girls, maybe I think there were like 7 girls sleep over it, but 1 out of the 7, the parents said no. She said, I want her to have her iPad the whole time because it's her way to get in contact with me and the mom then said, but I will be there and I will even let, I'll even leave like my iPad or my phone in the kitchen where everybody could have access to it. So if she does, she doesn't even have to come to me and say, I want to call my mom. She gets, I'll leave it out. And the parent was like, no, and if you're not comfortable with that, she doesn't have to come to the party.

Laura: I mean, good for everybody having really good boundaries, right?

Dr. Sheryl: Right. It was like boundaries galore on both sides and they did figure it out. I think what they wound up doing, which, was a surprise to the parent at the end, but it was boundaries on both sides, is she came with like her Apple Watch and left it on the whole time, which could be in touch. Yeah, she could be in touch and mom could be in touch with her if she wanted to be, but it wasn't nearly as cons   ing and disruptive as an iPad. 

Laura: Absolutely. 

Dr. Sheryl: Yeah, these are the things and these are the great opportunities, right? Because you can do that at 9, but when they're 16, it's It's pretty hard to say like, okay, you're gonna go to a sleepover and, you know, this, that and the other. It's like they're, they're sort of on their own, you know what I mean? They're like, driving over there and, you know, so, but if they practice for years that they can have sleepovers and they're, they're having fun and they're connected and they're not lued to the technology, they're more likely to do other things like have baking competitions and just, you know, do each other's nails and the other things that honestly kids today don't really do as much of because they're on their way more fun and more fulfilling and more interactive and more laughs and all those things, but they don't know that and we have to go out of our ways as parents to create whatever opportunity or situation you want for your kids. If you want a childhood like yours, you know, whatever that means, you may have to go a little bit out of your way to create that because it's not gonna happen naturally. And I think that's one, that's part of the spirit. Of the book, which is like a lot of really cool, amazing, value-based things can happen 6 to 12. You just, you got to be talking about it though. You got it. 

Laura: You have to be, I mean, we're circling back to that word intentional. So really approaching these years with a lot of intention and an eye towards the future, not just for your kid, but your future relationship with them. I really love that, Sheryl. Well Dr. Ziggler, thank you so much for this. Thank you for writing the book that we all really needed. I didn't know you needed. I mean, I think, I think we, I think people, parents, the parents in my realm for a couple of years have been asking like why isn't there a book for this age range? And so I'm so glad that I can now send send them your way. 

Dr. Sheryl: Awesome. I'm so glad there's parents that that noticed that it was missing. I think maybe some do and maybe a lot, just maybe didn't even notice it was missing and you know, we've talked about lots of parts of the crucial years. I would say the part that we didn't that we won't get to, but is in there is what I call the tough stuff, which is talking about drugs and alcohol and consent. And yes, this is 6 to 12, and I walk people through those things. Yeah, age appropriately. Appropriately, I walk, I walk the reader through, I create scripts for it. So that way, again, as soon as you're comfortable saying things like, Oh, it looks like your breasts are growing. Like, oh, you have your period. Here's how, right? Like because at first people are like, oh my gosh, they don't even want to say those words. But as soon as between that and all the way through alcohol, drugs, those kind of things. You just, again, this is your opportunity. You get to practice saying things that maybe make you uncomfortable, but the more you do it and normalize it, it becomes like no big deal. 

Laura: Yes, I agree. I mean, and, and your kids will be. I don't know. My kids get so annoyed with me because they're like, Mom, can we not talk about puberty at the dinner table? And I'm like, no, no, we definitely are going to talk about it right now. 

Dr. Sheryl: Something really big happening in our lives, all of our lives.

Laura: Yes, we're gonna, we're going to talk about it again. Thank you so much, Dr. Ziegler, for being with us. I just want to make sure my listeners, you know, get to hear where they can find and connect with you. I'll put it all in the show notes, but it's always good to have the, you know, to hear it out loud. 

Dr. Sheryl: Yeah, I think the one central hub for where they can find everything is my website, which is drsherylziegler.com, and that handles on what I use for social and I have a sub-stack that's new that I'm really growing. Yeah. So I'm going to be doing combo of written articles and videos and another place where you can. Also find my podcast, which is Dr. Sher's Podcast. So, you can still sign up for Substack from my website, but the substack is something I'm excited about because it's kind of newer to me. So I'm experimenting with like different ways of delivering, you know, bite-size information that hopefully will be really helpful to people. 

Laura: Wonderful. Thank you so much. 

Dr. Sheryl: Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from. 

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too. 

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!