Episode 228: Using Storytelling to Support Teens Through Challenging Seasons with Michael Toledo
/In this week’s episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, I sit down with Michael Toledo, author of Be Limitless, Be Love, and storyteller, to discuss how storytelling can support parents as they guide their tweens and teens through the challenges of adolescence. Michael shares his own story, from his childhood as a first-generation Mexican-American to his diverse career experiences, and explains how these experiences have shaped his perspective on parenting. Together, we’ll dive into how stories can be used to maintain a connection with children as they begin to seek independence and navigate the complex emotions of growing up
Here are the topics we covered:
How parents can find reassurance in knowing that their efforts are seen
How storytelling—especially from peers—can help kids feel seen, understood, and supported during adolescence
How Maslow's hierarchy of needs can guide boundary-setting for both parents and kids
Supporting kids' self-reflection through gentle, nonjudgmental conversations about needs
Helping kids feel understood by helping them to express needs with empathy and nuance
Resources:
If you want to connect with Michael, visit his website belimitlessbelove.com.
Remember to maintain balance in your parenting by using storytelling to connect with your tweens and teens during their journey through adolescence.
TRANSCRIPT
Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.
Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!
Laura: Hello, everybody. This is Doctor Laura Froyen, and on this week's episode of the Balanced Parent podcast, I have something for the parents of tweens and teens. A lot of change happens in those years, for us as parents and our role as parents and for the kiddos too. And so to support you a little bit more in figuring out how to guide our kids through through those changes, especially as they start looking outward and inward more as opposed to to us and how we can still be a good support for them. I have just a lovely human being and author of a book I wanted to share with you. So, Michael Toledo, sorry, Michael Toledo. Anyway, my editor will fix it. Michael Toledo is here to talk with us about how storytelling can can help us guide our kids through these transitions and changes. So, Michael, why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do, and then we'll dive in.
Michael: Great. Well, thank you, Laura. I really appreciate that. I think it's noteworthy to kind of get a little background on myself. I was, raised in Topeka, Kansas by my first generation Mexican-American mother. She had 5 of us. We started off living in Topeka, Kansas. My first, baby bed, believe it or not, was the top drawer of a three drawer, what you drawer, yeah, yeah, bureau, yep, so. Then my mother had a bunch of kids. She divorced my father. We ended up in a garage, a converted garage in Topeka, Kansas. My mom swallowed her pride, went on to public assistance, we went into public housing. All the time when I was growing up, one of the best and most beautiful things that my mother ever gave all of us was this belief in ourselves. She told us that we could do and become whatever we wanted to, if we just believed in ourselves and applied ourselves. And then she set out and showed us exactly what she was talking about. She was involved in the public housing and trying to get more rights for the occupants, and so she became involved with the, legal aid of Topeka, Kansas. They won their lawsuit. The, director, then there was an opening on the national board of directors for the Legal Services Corporation. And so my mother was approved by Jimmy Carter. And the chairman of the board was Hillary Clinton.
Laura: Oh wow.
Michael: Yeah, so my mother lived what she said. So growing up, I mean, of course, I was a very rebellious teenager, as were my three other brothers and very big challenge for my mom. She really didn't approve of a lot of things that we did, but she always loved us, and I always felt that she loved us. And so then I made my way, you know, went to college, kind of, had some difficulties there, was in and out, and finally hit a bottom, moved back from Albuquerque, New Mexico. Went into social work. I was on the Dean's honor roll my senior year, got accepted into a master's program. Had a very high GPA and went into the mental health field, and did that for a number of years, and then wanted to try something new, so I went into selling insurance and all along, I kind of kept abreast of the mental health field and social work, and I've done a lot of work on myself in regards to reading different authors and, you know, coming to my own set of beliefs.
And one of the people that I came across was Maslof, and he had this hierarchy of needs. And it wasn't about dysfunction, it was more about being functional, and he believed he was a humanist, and so they kind of look at the whole person, whereas like when I was reading Freud or Young, it's more, you know, the internal, whereas the humanist, they look at both the external and internal, and so I, as I've aged and now I, have come to the point where I'm just working part-time and still, I found that we all have a calling in this, in this life and that my calling is to help others. And so I've applied that from when I was small to social work to insurance, and so I had this idea about writing a book and writing a book of short stories and focusing on teenage years because that's when, as any of you out there who have preteens or teens know. That's when they start to not so much want to have us as the center of their world, and as you were saying, they look outward and they're starting to be influenced by all these different elements in life.
Laura: And so, can I just pause, I just want to pause you for just a second and hold two things that you've set up to the light that I thought were really beautiful that I think parents really worry about. So one is that our kids don't see us, that they don't. See our work, they don't see how much we're trying, and it was lovely to hear you reflect back on your mom. I think, you know, even, even if it takes a while for our kids to be able to be at that point, to be able to look back and see, see us as full humans, it's good to know that maybe someday that will happen, cause right now, you know, my kids are, 12 and almost 10, and they definitely get to see my humanity a lot, but they also see me as the, the maker of the food and the, the cleaner of the house at times too, you know. I mean, it's, lovely to hear, you reflect back on what you learned from your, your mom's journey. I think it can feel a little overwhelming as parents when we are in the middle of that journey ourselves. We don't know if it's going to have any impact on those around us who are seeing it in, you know, in progress. So I really loved that you shared that.
Michael: Thank you. Yeah, it's my pleasure.
Laura: And the other thing too that I really loved that I think is another thing that parents really worry about. We really think we have to get our kids onto a path that is, that is a, a straight path with, a destination in mind, where you can look down the path and you can see the destination at the end. And it sounds to me like your path had a lot of twists and turns in it. A Lot of hard periods, a lot of needing to kind of reevaluate and take a, take a shift. And I think it's really lovely when we can hold to light stories like that. So we can just reassure ourselves that, you know, if our kids are graduating from high school and have no idea what they're going to do, heck, even if they're graduating from college and have no idea what they're going to do, they still, you know, at the end of the day can be sitting here on a podcast talking about a book that they've written, you know? Yeah, yeah, I mean I like that a lot.
Michael: Thank you. I mean, I, it's taken a long time and I'm 67 years old and you know, lived. Every one of those years for sure. My child came, I had one son, his mother and I divorced, he was in a bad situation there. He came to live with myself and my second wife, and he was had ADHD and was acting out of school and getting in trouble, and, you know, we were seeing a psychiatrist and they made the the psychiatrist made the decision that he would come and live with myself and my, my wife and, you know, parenting it's a it's an art. Yeah, definitely not science. So one of the first things I did, I was, you know, still in the mental health field. I immediately, he needed it, so I got him on medication. I also knew that he needed a way to vent, you know, his frustrations, anger, things like that.
And so I got him involved in karate. So that that was so good because I mean, he was overweight, no self-esteem, and so by, by studying karate, he learned self-discipline, he learned self-defense, he learned to believe in himself, the medication worked wonderfully. He settled down, he got to be on the honor roll when he was in middle school, and he was able to kind of age out of the special education aspect of the system when he went into high school. So there are so many twists and turns, and I mean, my own adventure in, in growing up in such, you know, I learned, I had to learn the hard way, and my sons had to learn the hard way, but you know I mean now he's becoming successful and, you know, he's able, he's 35 and he's, you know, doing, doing pretty well.
Laura: Yeah, yeah, well, I just love that invitation to just You know, parenting is a really intense thing, and we can get really, you know, especially the, the folks like me who care a lot about it, right? So like I do this work because I care a lot about it. The people who are listening care a lot about it, and it can feel like we start gripping a little tightly. And it's good to just be invited to, to just loosen our grasp a little bit and allow, allow what will happen to happen. And have a little bit of faith in, in what we're doing and the people that we're putting out into the world. One thing I really, you know, so when I started reading your book, it really reminded me of, it took me back to a teenage experience of my own that I had totally forgotten about. I still love reading the Chicken Soup for the Teenage Soul books.
There was something about them when I was a kid that, made me feel seen and understood and not so alone in a way that like my parents telling me their stories could never do, cause I just I could not get my head around the idea that my parents were teenagers at the time. I've glanced back through them now as an adult, and they're like, they're not like necessarily something I would give to my kiddos. But I really enjoyed reading your books. I feel like the stories were maybe a little bit more of the moment and of the times, and I just feel a little curious about kind of what made you want to write a book like this for kids. And, and tell us a little bit about the book, cause that, I mean, that was the vibe I was picking up while I was reading it, but I feel kind of curious about your goals and your hopes for this book in terms of guiding kids or supporting kids.
Michael: Okay, well, thank you. Yeah, well, I mean, why I wanted to write the book about teenagers is that that's the period of time, of course, you know, where they're going from concrete thinking to abstract thinking, they're questioning everything. I wanted them to see that they're all different.
Laura: Things that are pulling on them, like, this tension between fitting in and standing out, right? Like there's that big tension fitting in versus standing out. Yes, there's all of these tensions within them.
Michael: Right, one of the stories is is about a girl who is trying to do everything. She's on the debate team, she's on the drill team, she's a cheerleader, she's trying to make good grades. She's got all these different stressors going on and she has her, her friends who are wanting her to party, but yet she wants to make a good GPA so she can get into a decent college. And so by looking at Masloff and his hierarchy of needs, these needs are contained right within that story where exactly what you said is they want to be a part of a group, but yet they want to be their own unique person. And, and they're starting to wonder because, I mean, believe it or not, I could still remember back then. It's like, why am I here? What is my purpose for being on this earth? And that internal struggle, but yet also wanting to be a part of the group. Like, if I had the iPhone 16, my life would be complete, right?
Laura: Yeah. You know, so I, you know, I love that you bring Maslow's hierarchy of needs into it. Not just because I like happened to live in the town where that was developed, right? So Maslow was a professor at UW Madison, which is in the town where I live. But I use that model for helping parents understand how to set boundaries with their kids for themselves. So maybe it would be helpful if we talked a little bit about like what is the hierarchy, and I can share how I teach it to, to parents, and you can share like how this is relevant for teaching to kids. Because I think I find it very helpful for teaching boundary setting, but I would love to hear your perspective too. So will you go through the hierarchy of needs.
Michael: Sure, sure. Well, of course, the lowest level, which we all have to have.
Laura: Like the base of a pyramid, right?
Michael: Right. It's like the base of a pyramid, it kind of works its way up is we have to have shelter, we have to have food, right?
Laura: So that, that's basic human needs.
Michael: Yep, yep. So then the next level is that. We have to have our physiological needs met, and I'm gonna probably borrow here to make sure that I get this.
Laura: So there's there's physiological needs and then safety and security.
Michael: Safety and security where we then need to be a part of a family. And that was, there's, there's 2 or 3 of the stories that focus on family. And how the family is so influential to the development of us and and that's why I think it's really important to let your kids know that, you know, we're here for you, we love you, we're behind you. This is our rules, this is our norms. If you wanna go out there and try new things, well, you still gotta live under our roof and You know, abide by our rules, right? So you're, you're still a part of us, and even one of my last stories, it's about a family event, and I had to do a whole bunch of work, but my aunt, she, I asked her why we were getting together, and it was her response was, because we want to be together, we want to get together. And so that need for family is there and also you have to and at that point with the safety and security, there's the social aspect and, and with teens, of course, you know, they're, they're kind of venturing out, right? That's that that group is becoming. As important or in their eyes, a lot of times more important than the family.
Laura: Yeah, just this weekend, my parents, they have a condo here in town. They have a farm that they live on in southern Iowa, but they have a little place in town cause my sister lives here too. And they invited all of the grandkids over for pancakes on sunday morning and my 12.5 year old. She was really torn about whether or not she wanted to go, right? And she was really in this tension of, you know, they, the kids need love and belonging, right? That's one of the, the level, one of the hierarchies is love and belonging, we all need it. But there's this tension between, okay, so if she goes, she knows she has to leave, you know, her phone or method of contact. We have a, a phone that she can text some of her friends with, but it stays at our house because it's a house phone, and that is our, our limit with technology right now. So she knew, she went, she would be having that opportunity to feel love and belonging with her family, but would be cut off from her friends. And I mean, it was that there was a moment of real tension for her and figuring out how to navigate that and and make a decision.
Michael: Yeah, and I think that that's where parents and as you indicated, setting boundaries is important. It's like, you don't have to have their approval or their love at that moment.
Laura: Yes, yeah. I mean that. Right. And I mean, and so like that's not to say that the limit isn't set with empathy and importance. Like, hey, kiddo, your friendships are really important to you and to me, and I want you to have them, and your relationship with your grandma and grandpa is also really important. And I want you to have that too. And so we have to figure out how we're gonna, how we're going to move forward, you know, with both of these presses on you. You know, I mean, and that's a skill we have to navigate for the rest of our lives. That doesn't go away, right? That's one of the reasons why I find Maslow's hierarchy of needs so helpful in setting boundaries for ourselves, because it does help us kind of evaluate what need is being filled here. What need is not being filled, right?
Michael: Exactly. That, yeah, in a nutshell. That's kind of the, the goal of these stories is for kids, parents, all of us to be kind of these things, as you know, they're either in our unconscious or preconscious or sometimes conscience and so it's to bring the ones that you feel tension, you feel like something is not right as a parent or as a kid, but you don't have a label, and you don't have a name for it. And with the hierarchy of needs, if you can name it, you can label it, then it, it's just normal. It doesn't, it doesn't have to become abnormal. It doesn't. And it's to spike that balance with all of these needs, so that parents can help the kids grow and get to the next higher levels and, and they'll have different levels competing for their attention, right? Emotionally, mentally, and so if parents and kids can just say, hey, I know you're struggling with this need to be your own independent person, but you can't have purple, yellow and green hair. Sorry, this is not going to happen.
Laura: I mean, I would argue, I would argue why can't they? But you know, we all get to make our own decisions around our family, right? And for me too, the an example like that, having the conversation around that is lovely and good modeling for the kids too. So I think what I really like about this is that you're I feel like with when it came to books like Chicken Soup for the Teenage Soul, they were a little preachy in a in a way of, I'm going to tell you what you should think. And I feel like what you're advocating for is for us to teach our kids how to think, as opposed to what to think.
Michael: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Laura: Yeah, yeah. So what in that vein, what can we be doing for, you know, for our kids to support that when, when they bring a problem to us or we can just sense that something's off because they bit our head off over something they wouldn't normally, like, what, what do we do as parents in those moments where we would like to help them think through something without being overbearing, without being pushy, you know?
Michael: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's gonna vary, of course, you know, depending on the parent, but I think just as we've been talking about the overall non-judgmental kind of here's the situation from my perspective as your parent that I'm seeing you're kind of struggling with spending too much time with your friends and just thought we could maybe talk about this and you know that Michael Toledo's book about Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Well, let's pull out that chapter on the stars. And so we'll look at that, let's read it, and so how does that, what does that say to you? What do you get from that? And here's what I'll tell you. I get from that, and that's how this relates to our struggle here with you spending too much time with your friends, cause I mean, I know that you have, and it's one of, it's in his needs, a need for, for connection, a need for intimacy. So that's why I wrote the stories the way I did. I tried to purposely make them where they weren't trying to give my perspective of what the answer is, because there's so many different people and so many different beliefs, I mean, from where we come from, but we all have these needs. These needs are universal. So that would be a very noninvasive way to to bring it up, but to kind of let the kids say, oh yeah, maybe I am spending a little too much time here, maybe I can balance that out.
Laura: Yeah. I mean, even thinking about shifts in language to approaching it from a place of what the parent wants, you know, like I'm so glad you have, you know, so many friends and you like, you know, spend so much time and I miss you. We we miss this, you know, gosh, we used to watch a TV show and laugh every night before, you know, before you went up for bed, and now we don't anymore. And I really miss laughing with you. You know, being able to talk about our needs, it is important too. And again, kind of almost circling back, letting them see us as full humans and seeing them as full humans and and being able to just, I don't know, like, I do think that there's kids almost don't wanna hear sometimes who are in this age that we get it, that we understand the, the pressures they're under, the you know, the tensions that they're feeling, but there, I feel like there's sneakier ways to let them know that we do understand, you know, and that's the type of thing that allows them to feel that way.
Instead of saying like, I understand, being able to say, gosh, you know, you have only so many hours in the day and you really want to spend it with your friends, and I bet you miss me too, and that must be really hard. Like that is a much gentler way of saying it, you know, than just like, I get it's hard, you want to be with your friends, but you have to be with us too. Do you know what I mean? Like, even just, it allows them to come to the conclusion that you're hoping they will come to.
Michael: Well, and you said it because as adults we have these same needs, right? So that's letting the kids know these are universal needs and I love you. I need to be affiliated with you. I need to have intimacy with you without saying it, it's, it's right there, you know.
Laura: Absolutely.
Michael: And that kind of leads into self-esteem, which is the other next higher level where the person, you know, works on their confidence and achievement, and where they have respect for themselves, and also respecting others. So that's there in several of the stories, and I also, you know, being at my age and a grandparent, right? Several of the stories show the importance of people in my age bracket, and how, hopefully, you know, we have a little wisdom to share. We can, we can help the, the our grandchildren, we can maybe help our children a little a little.
Laura: I mean, I think I do think that people forget that, you know. The people who are listening to my show like are super fascinated and interested in child development, right? And what's important for us to remember is that human development occurs across the lifespan, and there are very specific things that are super important for young children, but there are just the same number of important things at every stage of life that are pretty normal, pretty typical to pass through at give it different ages, you know, and, and that goes across the lifespan. And so there are developmental imperatives for all of us at any point in time in age, you know, when a child is 12 months old, there's that developmental drive to learn to walk, right? And when we're, you know, It's different, but it's, it's the same to a certain extent. We we have those developmental drives all across the lifespan.
Michael: Yep, exactly. And I think in in this stage too, it talks about a person wanting to be unique, and as you said, I mean, I don't wanna focus on myself. As far as I know, writing these short stories and having symbols as the beginning of the story, and then offering actual products and such to back up and cue people. From what other writers and editors have told me, it's not been done before. So that's kind of maybe a uniqueness and something I didn't know that I was, you know, was not conscious that that this had never been done, but You know, it's kind of neat. So, and at 67.
Laura: I'm still we're still looking for those things. Yeah, yeah. I think that there is this, you know, I think a lifelong between autonomy and relatedness, you know, connection and uniqueness and, you know, being uniquely yourself and being part of something too. It's beautiful to see that across the lifespan. I did just have 1 kind of last questions that just is a curiosity for me. So the title of your book is called Be Limited, Sorry, Be Limitless, Beloved, and I feel curious about the title. It's a pretty expansive title, like in my like what I like, I get an expansive feeling in my body when I hear it, and I feel really curious about how you came up with that, like how you came to it.
Michael: Oh, well, thank you. Well, it was just by accident, honestly. I have a really good friend of mine of 40 years, and, you know, I was, you know, just talking with him and, you know, saying that, you know, in all the different authors and reading and life experiences, really my own journey, I mean, from what I told you, from poverty and nothing and, you know, to have the the degrees that I have. To have the personal success that I've had, and, and to do this, to do this at age 67, is kind of like, okay, where is my limit? And it's like, why? Why is there a limit? Life can be limitless, and as long as you do it in a loving way, where you love yourself and you're loving others, that I believe as you do that. Then you open up more opportunities to find new avenues along these hierarchy of needs that you'll take a journey. And, and that we all find at least one calling in life.
Mine, like I said, is to help others. I have a brother who has a JD and, you know, those people and not to generalize, but they tend to be kind of more mental than than emotional, right? But his calling, which really surprised me is that he loves being a father. Really? Okay, I never would have thought that. And so, see, I think that the being loving versus being selfish, self-love, by being loving, then you respect and show this kindness for others. And then you also show it for yourself, and if they reflect that back to you, then it's gonna open up new possibilities. And so it's this upward and it's kind of like a gyroscope of these different needs that you're looking at and you're going down these different paths, and it, it's it, why does it ever have to end?
Laura: Yeah, yeah, I really like that. I like that invitation to you know, there's this natural human tendency to to be black and white thinkers, to, you know, have it, it's either this or it's that and to to label and categorize and compartmentalize and And there's just a little bit more space, a little bit more breathing room when we think about things, not needing to be quite so so boundaried and rigid. Yeah, I like that a lot. Thank you, Michael. I would love to have my listeners know where they can find more, you know, learn alongside you. Do you have a website or I have a website.
Michael: It's belimitlessbelove.com, that would link you to Amazon. The book is available for sale on Amazon, and as you see, here's a few of the little products, so.
Laura: Yeah, thank you so much.
Michael: I like those as physical reminders to to to do that. Be limitless, folks, you know, enjoy life, enjoy the calling, even Mark Twain kind of got this, right? One of his famous sayings is, the two most important days in your life are the day that you're born and the day you find out why.
Laura: Yeah. I think that that is a very daunting prospect for a lot of us. And I think what is interesting about the way that you've talked about it today. It feels so when you think about that, especially as a teenager, I remember feeling this way, thinking about like I have to have a purpose, I have to have a calling. It feels very big and like I've got to do something huge with my life. And the way that you've been talking about it, it actually is quite okay to be quite small in scale. It can still be your purpose and your calling, you know, so I, I think about my, so my two parents were both teachers and my dad, you know, for a variety of reasons, need has always needed to be the best that he could possibly be at something. And so he is a like a national award winning high school science teacher, like, you know, big deal.
My mom was a reading interventionist, so the kids who were maybe having trouble picking up reading in elementary school would go and see her. This, you know, and so like while my dad was on this big stage, you know, he's a very prominent community member. I don't know that his life was necessarily more impactful or more calling or purpose driven than my mom's, you know? Like it's, I think it's okay for us to be flexible with ourselves around the scale and be okay with having these callings, quite simple, like your brother.
Michael: Yeah, like me, I just wanna help. I mean, if this helps one person. That's it. It's worth it. That's it. That's all it's about for me, you know, and, and I really do. I, you know, I think. And in the book about or the short story about the monarch, where these kids are in this room with hundreds of monarch butterflies and the silk weeds, and they just they they sit down and the, the butterflies come and touch them on their face and they have this sense and it it's kind of like what Maslof, you know, calls a peak experience, right? And I think we can have those peak experiences in putting your child to bed. You know, watching your child get. An award watching your child make a new discovery, you know, I can tie my own shoes. I can. I can make a I don't know, nearly perfect score on the SAT, you know, it's just, wow. I mean those peak experiences, they, they happen and it doesn't have to be like your dad. Right? It can, it can be like one of those things I just said.
Laura: Yeah, yeah. I really, I really like that. I think that that has been a very comforting realization as I've entered my 40s. So I thank you, Michael, so much for today. I really appreciate you being here and what you're putting out into the world.
Michael: Well, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. It's really it's been a fun experience. I wish you the best in everything.
Laura: Thank you too.
Michael: Okay.
Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.
And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too.
All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!