LAURA-2017(25of35).jpg — The Balanced Parent

*Perfection not required

Welcome to the home of The Balanced Parent Podcast!

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either Great Joy or chaotic overwhelmed. In one moment you’re nailing it and the next you're losing your cool I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see, balance is a verb not a state of being. it is a thing you do not a thing you are. it is an action a process a series of micro-corrections each and every day to keep ourselves feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I’m Dr. Laura Froyen and this is the Balanced Parent podcast, where overwhelmed stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level, all delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, YOUR LIFE, with open-hearted authenticity and balance. Let’s go!

January 12, 2022

Episode 100: Reconnecting to Play for Our Own Wellbeing with Amanda Evans

January 12, 2022/ Laura Froyen

It's my 100th episode in The Balanced Parent Podcast! I can't believe it has already been this long and I want to extend my sincerest gratitude for tuning in, for sending in your feedback, for sharing your takeaways with me, and for welcoming me into your homes and hearts each week. I am on a mission to bring more presence, ease, & connection to parenting, and I couldn't think of a better community to be doing this important work with. Thank you so much for your dedication to this work; I honestly believe that together we are changing the world, one child at a time.

Okay so, you see, as we grow older, the weight of expectations and responsibilities of adulting and parenting put so much pressure on us and we get the overwhelming message from our culture that it's time to "grow up" and leave childish things behind. And while yes, we are the grown ups and no one is coming to save us, we are also human beings, equally deserving of time, rest, and yes, even fun! But figuring out how to have simple pleasures in our lives just as we did when we were children, is so NOT simple. There are parts of us that resist it, that see it as frivolous, unproductive and therefore unnecessary, and those parts need a bit of time, attention, and healing, before we can play with ease.

Which is why this week we are focusing on how we can use play for our own inner work and healing. For this week's episode, I am joined by Amanda Evans. She is a Parent Coach, Speaker, and Intuitive Energy/Play-based Healer who is passionate about supporting children and families to be their happiest and healthiest selves! Her own healing journey taught her so much about the extraordinary healing powers of play, love and connection and helped her develop her "stay and play method" to supporting both children and parents alike. She is dedicated to helping people take their health and happiness into their own hands, believing in their own magic and the power to heal from within.

Here is a summary of our discussion:

Healing the child while healing a parent's inner child
Connection and play-based ways to heal and grow
How to re-parent ourselves

To give you more support, follow Amanda on Instagram @mind_body_soul_miracles and visit her website www.mindbodysoulmiracles.com.

TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic overwhelm. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do; not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Laura: Hello everybody! Welcome back to The Balanced Parent Podcast and we are continuing our conversations about play during our 30 Days of Play Challenge and this time we're gonna be talking about you–you, the parents, and your relationship to play.

A lot of us go through our days as parents feeling pulled away from the things we have to do and into play with our kids and there can be kind of a lingering sense of resentment or I really don't like doing this, I really don't know how to do this anymore. And I wanted to in this episode help you reconnect with play for your own pleasure and enjoyment and joy and so that you can actually enjoy those interactions with your child.

And so to help me with this conversation, I have a play expert coming in. Her name is Amanda Evans and I'm so excited to introduce you to her. Amanda, welcome to the show.

Amanda: Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here and to talk about play.

Laura: Yeah, right, let's geek out about play. This is one of the funnest months in my podcast. So well, Amanda, why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself and you know who you are and what you do?

Amanda: Yeah, so my name is Amanda Evans and I'm the CEO and Founder of my business, it's called Mind Body Soul Miracles and I'm a Play-Based Healer. So what that means is I really, I support families to reconnect with themselves and each other. And I primarily, I support conscious parents who are feeling overwhelmed and triggered by their child's big emotions and tantrums so that they can parent with greater ease, play presents.

And something that I love is really helping the parents to reconnect with their own play because kids are such great teachers of how to play and how to find the joy in the little moments and I personally feel like that's one of the most important things.

So I work with both parents and kids and primarily those sensitive empathic little ones who have so much to teach us in the world. But what I do is, I call it is, I'm a Master Coach and I call it Master coach meets Mary Poppins because it's very much like when you watch the movie Mary Poppins of how can we bring coaching and making friends with emotions together with play? Because together it's like magic.

Laura: Yeah, so tell me what is play-based healing?

Amanda: It's very similar to play-based therapy in a way. However, I'm an energy healer. So there is an aspect of that in the sessions, but really the idea is that in these sessions that I have with children is they're all child-led. So there's going to be toys and games and all of the favorite things that they could play with that are all around them set up for them and it is the space where they get to come in and they get to choose, they get to leave, what are we going to play and explore and navigate today.

And the beautiful thing is when kids are playing and when they feel a positive bond, a connection and that safety with someone–which in this instance is me in those sessions–they naturally want to open up about their emotions and talk about what's on their heart and talk about what's going on in their life. And really, that safety is what heals.

So they get a chance to do the thing that makes them feel the most like them because oftentimes, especially if a child has like a label or a diagnosis, sometimes it feels like people see them as that. Whereas in this setting, in these sessions, they just get to be seen and really known as the person that they are who has these passions; things they're excited about. And really get to be seen in that positive light while also being supported to talk about their needs, their wants, their emotions.

So within that framework, they get to play and build that positive connection with someone who feels safe while also learning tools and new ways to release their emotions, to express their emotions, to really feel safe to ask for what they need within their families. But then there's something that happens with having that time with someone and the safety with someone, it then integrates out into their family and to their school and to the society. So that being safe and being themselves with one person, it gets to keep expanding out to their other connections.

Laura: Yeah, so I mean you're talking really about Play Therapy. I'm a Play Therapist by training. I don't do it anymore but I do have a course called Playful Healing that is a deep dive and teaches parents how to do what you're describing. The research on play-based therapy is the parent is so impactful because the attachment relationship is already there and an attachment relationship is that ideal context for healing.

And so for listeners, if what Amanda is describing to you sounds interesting, you can actually do this yourself too. And so there's a course that's available to you called Playful Healing on my website. You can go check out, that is a beautiful invitation to reconnect and heal your relationship with your child and just provide a beautiful space of connection and understanding. So that's available.

But I think what I want to talk about with you today, Amanda, is how we can help parents feel more connected to play themselves. I think that so often we grow up, we lose that childlike sense of wonder and we lose our ability to play. And so I would really love to know from you how we can help parents tap back into play for themselves. Not just for their kids, but for themselves.

Amanda: Well, first I would say really define parents what is play with them because they think that that's sometimes what gets in the way of parents, like how do I play because they think of play is something that their child does. Whereas play can be anything. And my personal definition is play is like that thing that when you're doing it, you're so in the moment that it's like time goes away. So play presents really go together for me, but I think it's so personal for each person and before you can spend time doing that thing, you need to figure out what does play mean to you.

So, I would encourage parents in your community to really connect with themselves and and what that means to them. And what are those activities that bring them completely into the present moment that remind them of like that childlike magic and innocence and that really just bring them joy.

Laura: Yeah, I love that. So I often describe play as a flow process; kids get into flow with their play and we talk about flow a lot in the 30 Days of Play Challenge and your description is so beautiful because I think that if we ask parents, we ask grown-ups to think about when do you get into a flow state? They know what a flow state is.

You know, that time where kind of time slips away, where you're on the cusp of something that is challenging and interesting, but there's ease to it. Lots of runners will talk about the runs as a flow state, yoga is a great flow state. I get into flow when I'm baking. So there's different, you know, ways to get into flow.

But I think if we ask parents to really reflect on when do I have that sense of, you know, the time is just passing and I'm in complete enjoyment in the present moment and what I'm doing. And I love redefining play. I think that that's so important.

Amanda: Well I love that and I love the reminder about flow state because it's just, it's like pure presence and magic and I think just that reminder of, what are the things that when you do that you really enter that state?

But then I think there's also a conversation for parents around when do we make the time for it? Because parents have such full plates and are making sure that their children's needs are met. And so with parents, it's like, how can you really block in a little bit of time to make that a priority?

But the question I talked with a lot of parents about is how can you also just make those tasks that are already on your list more playful? Like how can you change your approach to what you're already doing and have more fun with it?

Laura: Okay, so when you say more playful, you mean more fun?

Amanda: More fun.

Laura: Yeah. So what does that look like in practice? Can you give us some descriptions?

Amanda: Well, I think it's depending on the person. But personally for me, for example, if you have things on your list that are like cleaning, doing the dishes or all of those tasks that we do every day or like cleaning up the toys with your kids, it's like how can you take that activity and make it more fun?

So for me music is like always go to, it's like how can I put on the favorite songs or like the family's favorite songs, make it a dance party and sing along while you're doing the activities. Or maybe it's turning the activities that you already doing into a game.

So if it's like clean up with your kids, it's like how can we make this fun and be like, how can we do this as a team or who can clean up their side faster than the other person and, and just really like engaging in connection with your family while you're doing these things that you might look at as one more thing on your list or one more opportunity to have fun and to connect.

Laura: I love that. I want to mention too for listeners who are thinking about kind of doing races and who can do things the fastest, that it's best if you've got siblings to either race the clock or to have the kids on the team who are racing parents because sibling rivalry can really sneak in there sometimes.

A personal example of something that I used to do when my kids were younger and getting out the door to daycare into preschool is really, really hard. I would pretend to be a flight attendant who was boarding a plane and so I would stand at the door and you know, make announcements now, you know, boarding row, whatever and really like get into character and then they would get loaded in and then we would..

I mean I would be the pilot and we would, as we got up onto the expressway, I would be like, again we, you know, we have, you know, we have lift off our wheels are being being tucked in. Do you hear the landing gear, you know, just the whole way and you know, I only needed to do that, you know, for a week or two and it really eased the kind of the new rhythm of going to school.

They didn't need it every time, but there were days when it was really hard, like when it was hard to say goodbye, it was hard to leave home that the play really helped, you know. It's funny like I think that parents think and you tell me if you agree with this.

I think parents think that they have to be naturally silly or naturally playful to be able to do this, but in actuality, your kids don't know that you might be faking it or that it might not come naturally to you or that you got the idea from a podcast. They don't know and you don't have to tell them, you know, they're delighted.

Most kids, even if you think like your delivery and your acting is, or your accent is terrible, most kids are so delighted by it that they don't care. They won't say anything about it. They'll just, I mean, my nine-year-old will sometimes like when I'm being silly, you know, as to make things easier, she'll be like, mom, I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to get me to brush my teeth and I love it and then she does, you know, but it's not even trickery. It's yeah, I am trying to make it easier for you to brush your teeth right now. Let's make it fun, you know.

Amanda: I love that and I love how smart kids are too. I saw you on those things but like you said, she's like, yeah, that's okay. I'm gonna do it. I know that's what you're doing

Laura: Actually when this comes out she will be nine and she, I feel like she's getting a little too cool for school for some of those things. And so like my six year old still loves to do things, you know, like brushing teeth games and then, you know, she'll be over there brushing her own teeth kind of rolling her eyes, but then you can see her kind of inching and leaning into it a little bit too. It's so funny. Kids are so funny.

Okay, so we've talked about reconnecting to kind of and redefining what play means to us and then making some space and time for that in our busy lives, taking opportunities of things that we do every day to just make them more fun and playful in a way that's authentic but also push ourselves a little bit. What are some other things that we can do as parents to really actually like enjoy play in our families, in our daily lives?

Amanda: You spoke to something really beautiful which is, and really about making it authentic, right? But you're just some parents that play might feel like really silly and like you have to be a certain way and I think that brought up a really good point about the play that looks different to everyone. And so it might not be super silly, super loud, super this because that's not how play feels good.

So really I would say it's like you're a parent and you're still trying to figure out what play is to you and how you do it. Like remember it's not play isn't how somebody else plays that makes it great. How do you feel the most like you? So it's that reminder that you and your child might play in a very quiet way. Your play might be like snuggling in a cozy corner in your room or pulling out a book or affirmation cards or it might be journaling and I think the reminder is that like play can be whatever feels good.

Laura: Yeah, you just said something there that play is where you feel most like you. I really like that statement a lot. I feel like I need to say it again. Play is where you feel most like you. I think that that's one of the reasons why kids like play so much is because they feel completely and entirely themselves when we are with them in the present moment with their play really witnessing them. They feel loved and unconditionally accepted when we're not trying to change their play or criticize their play or make them play the way we want them to.

It's so beautiful to be seen and held in that way for kids. And I think we have to recognize that we need that type of presence and witnessing, you know, and we can't wait around for someone else to give it to us. Like we have to be able to offer that to ourselves. We have to be like good moms, good parents to ourselves. And oftentimes we're looking for other people to witness that in us. And I think, you know, we're the grown ups now, we have to kind of take on that job of, you know, being the mom to ourselves, giving ourselves that space and time to do it.

Okay, so then how do we go about getting the time to do our own play? So there's, we're talking about two different kinds of play, right? So we're talking about play with our kids, which I hope we will talk about like how to actually enjoy playing with your kids because I think that that's what lots of parents struggle with, but we're also talking about play with ourselves. So how do we go about getting that time to actually play?

Amanda: Well, honestly, I think it's each parent has really taken inventory of what your schedule and day looks like already because the last thing you want to do is make it one more thing that you feel like you're squeezing in because it's meant to actually, like make everything feel better. And so like any new routine or any new habit to start small.

So for parents like 10 minutes, a magical number. If you can schedule in 10 minutes and it might be scheduling it at first because it's not something that you're normally used to and starting just with one activity that feels playful to you. So if it is journaling, if it's coloring, if it is like your meditation, it's.. Scheduling it in your calendar for 10 minutes and just start there. And I think that starting off your day with play changes how you feel throughout the whole day.

So I know a lot of parents, they start their day off early because they're trying to make sure that they can get everything they need and then support their kids. And if you can make that first moment of your day, your play, your time, your joy, it's quite likely that what follows that is going to be so much more present, so much more playful, so much more just like loving because you've already had space to be yourself without anyone seeing you.

Laura: I really like that. You know, it's.. Reading is one of the ways that I play

Amanda: I love that.

Laura: Since I started reading as a child, I like, that was one of my plays, you know, the way that I would play and so I wake up every morning and read in bed, you know, before I get up for the day.

Amanda: That sounds so amazing.

Laura: It's really lovely. I mean if you're a reader, it's just really love, you know, sometimes it's like parenting books. Sometimes it's like, you know, like kind of self-help type books, but sometimes it's just novels and fiction, which I really enjoy. And so and that does help me like when I don't get that, I'm a little grumpier and I like that I just I really like how we're talking about that this play is a way to get to be yourself. I really just really like that phrasing a lot.

One other thing that I have found for me personally that lets me get my play in is to cultivate play practices. And when we say play practices, we're really talking about self-care, you know, I mean really like let's just like.. let's just cut through like the coding and we're talking about self-care. But cultivating self-care or play practices that I can do alongside my kids.

So like coloring and painting, you know, creativity–opportunities to be creative and make something beautiful is one of my deepest pleasures. And so doing that alongside my children, you know. So, if I have my water colors out, you know, just setting up. If I'm getting my water colors out, I just set up theirs right next to me and they can join me if they want to, or they can play independently if they want to.

And another thing though too is that, I think with that so, yes, having stuff that you can do alongside your children, but I also think it's okay to set, like, firm boundaries around when the play is just for you.

So baking is one of my forms of play. I really love baking, but what I love about the baking is getting deep into the recipe, having the mental space and time to think about nothing else. To really follow a complicated–because baking can be hard, you know, to really follow a complicated recipe, have no one interrupting me and just really be in the moment with it. I cannot do that if I'm baking with my kids.

So, yeah, and so I have to have a really firm boundary of who is this baking for? Is this baking for me? Then no, I'm sorry, honey, we can make cookies afterward. This baking is for me, you know, versus if this baking is for the kids, then it's a completely different experience. And I have to have that internal boundary within myself, do you know what I mean? Like, like what is the purpose of this for me? My play or is it for theirs? And it's okay for it to be separate, you know?

Amanda: So something that… It's funny, I actually do this myself, but I also recommended with clients iis sometimes a goal can be a personal one and some of the personal goals, one that I have right now is from Monday to Friday, I actually like, it's like a checkoff thing.

It's I've committed to 20 minutes of pure presence and play for myself and then it's, it's funny, I actually do this with my dog and then another 20 minutes is just him and I with child or dog in this instance, directed play. So I do what I do with my clients that I deal with my dog and I do it with myself.

And what I've noticed is that when you hold that boundary, there might be the pushback at first. It's like, but I want that place. So for instance, if you're a parent and you, you might schedule this in, you might have 20 minutes, that's just your playtime and then another 20 that you're like, this is the time where we play together where we do that thing.

So maybe it's baking with yourself versus painting with your child. And because you know that you have that commitment of that time with you just like you were saying, knowing what the purpose of your play is versus your child, it's much easier to be able to communicate that to them. To be like, you know what, right now, I'm doing this baking and this is just my time to play with me, to do this, and we will have that time together to paint at and be very clear about when it's going to happen. To really communicate.

And then the more and more that it's communicated, the more and more they'll get used to it, but they also know that their needs and their desire for that connection and that play will happen because it's so clear and then you as a parent, because you've made a commitment to yourself in that time, you also know that you are going to need that time.

Laura: Yeah, and I mean, and the thing is that then you have to show up for your play dates with your kids, you know, you've got to show up and commit and you've got to show up for yourself too. These are beautiful things to be modeling for our kids.

You know, I think so many of us didn't grow up in a home where it was modeled for us. And even if it was being modeled, it wasn't overtly like, attention wasn't overtly drawn to it, you know, so being able to have those firm clear boundaries of yes, my sweetheart, I want to read to you, and right now I'm reading my book for my own enjoyment and so I'm going to finish this chapter, you know, I have just one more chapter to go and then I will be able to read to you.

Having those very clear, you know boundaries, it really is what it is and I think it's so important to not just model but to talk about it, you know. So I do explain to my kids why they're not invited to bake with me at that moment in time, you know, that this is something for me, this is one of the ways I play. I really enjoy being able to concentrate and I don't want to have to negotiate who gets to put what ingredient in.

I want to put the ingredients and the reassuring that there, don't worry, I have a recipe plan for you too. Don't worry after we're done, I have it all, you know, planned out. We'll get to make your favorite cookies for sure. Sometimes I will fill their cup first with it too. Like if I know I'm going to be, you know, doing something that's just for me, I will do, intentionally do their stuff first, top that cup up so that they can kind of handle it.

You know there's something too that I feel like we're not, we're kind of skipping over and there's a part to this series that we're in our 30 Days of Play Challenge, there is a part and at the time of recording I haven't fully outlined it. So I don't know where the part is going to fall, but there's a part on playing with your inner child.

Amanda: I was feeling that too. I was like we're gonna get the inner child.

Laura: Yeah, there's a whole episode on doing child-directed play with your inner child. So there's a whole episode on that, but I just feel curious if you have any tips on that topic for us as we're reconnecting with play for ourselves.

Amanda: Well, you know what there's so many different things with your inner child. But first off, my favorite question to ask people is how they played as a child? Because oftentimes that has to do with how we still enjoy play with ourselves now.

And so I would encourage that–just that self-discovery. It's like really whoever's listening to this right now is like, take time to go down memory lane of like when you were a little kid and you were so happy in the moment and playing. What were the things or the games that you played? Because asking that question is gonna prompt those memories which A, is already like so good for your brain and neural plasticity and all of that goodness, but also just even visualizing and remembering.

It A) like, brings the inner child out. And it activates that feeling of really getting into our parasympathetic nervous system of already starting to feel calmer and more playful. But once you ask that question you hear the answers, it gives you a window into what connects you with your inner child.

So for instance, I will speak about me when I was little, I was very nurturing and so I always loved any sort of like mothering or role play games. So I was all about playing house at school and I loved Barbies. So I like got to make up my stories and I honestly have this theory about, if you ask anybody what their Barbie story was when they were little, it tends to say a lot about them in their life now or what they do.

But when I think about that, I immediately like feel my connection with my inner child as a little kid. And then I think about if I'm doing inner child-directed play, what games am I going to be playing? What did she–what did little Amanda like? And then how can I do that again now to really connect with my inner child? So I might bring some of those activities back. I might bring Barbies or I might even visualize about it or I might consider doing something that is related to that now.

So for instance, if you were a kid who really like to build lego, you might start thinking about how could you do that in grown-up ways now or how do you build in your own life or what do you want your playtime to look like. Is it actually maybe getting lego again and building something, or is it noticing in your life where you're already doing those things?

So where do you build in your daily life, or what do you love about what you're already doing? Because I think that's the big question. It's.. we think it's one more thing we have to do, but sometimes connecting with our inner child reminds us of all the ways we already play in our life.

But I would also say there's so many ways to connect with your inner child, which I'm sure you're going to touch on too. But some ways that I've really learned is–there's different techniques, but first off if you just bring out toys, and I work a lot with kids and it's like literally bringing out puppets. But having conversations with them and something you can do is, it's called the empty chair process. And it's it's a technique I learned in coaching, but I know it's the way that I've connected with my inner child and what you do is you have a conversation with your inner child.

So you might set up two chairs in front of each other and you, as a grown-up sits in one and then you're gonna ask questions to your inner child and then go to the other side and hear the answers because it might just be–what do you need to feel safe today or what do you want to do to play today?

And by asking the question, you leave room for the answers that little you that's inside is going to feel safe to communicate with their needs and what their desires are and how they want to play with you. So then you listen just like you do with your kids and then make space for that.

Laura: Yeah. And so one thing that, like, as you're talking, I think that doing this process is really important. So lots of the parents I talk to who don't like playing with their kids, don't like playing with their kids because their kid is so bossy during the play and they feel like the kids never listening to any of their ideas and that they always get told no, don't say that and told what to do and they don't like it.

And my theory on this is that it's because, for those parents, there is an inner child who doesn't get to play anymore and who desperately wants to be playing. And that if we are nurturing and taking care of the inner child through our own play and outside times, and we learn to sit back and let our children's playtime with us before them and the unmet needs of our inner children are being met elsewhere in our own play. we can let our play with our children be for them–which is what it's supposed to be for. Right?

So I think that the inner child aspect of play is actually really important for parents to be able to achieve presence with their children's play and actually be child-directed in the play with their children. Because otherwise, sometimes–not all parents, but some parents have very loud inner children who have been ignored for a very long time.

Amanda: And they just want their needs to finally be met

Laura: I mean, so this happens with dad's a lot. A lot of the dads I work with really struggle with this because I think even more than women, play has been taken from dads, from them. Boys are forced to grow up and abandon their feelings so early in our culture. So early. And so when they sit down to play lego with their sons or their daughters, it's really really hard for them to hold back because they've got a vision too inside them.

I mean, so in those instances I really, I recommend having a separate set of legos for those… Yes, going to the toy section in Target and like getting out of your head and just like noticing which one jumps off the shelf, and buy it for yourself. It's 20 bucks. You know, it's okay to, you know, spend that on yourself and you don't have to share it with your child either. You can put it together for yourself just to please and enjoy yourself too.

And that will let that inner child, by needing that–your inner needs, your own needs first. It allows you to be more present and available to your child's needs, you know? Do you agree?

Amanda: Oh, completely. Yeah, no, you're like speaking to the heart of what I also believe. And it's so true. It's like we all just needed that space to keep playing and to keep being in touch with our emotions. So I love what you're saying about the dads and just not being afraid to have their own lego or their own set of toys and really go back to that space of connecting with themselves.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that this is something too that I like, I just you know, so I focus a lot on partners in parenting, So being good..

Amanda: Yeah, I love that.

Laura: I think we have to recognize that if we are parenting with a partner who we love, who we’re in a couple of relationship with, it's such a gift to prioritize the other person's pleasure and play too to really give them opportunities to play.

You know, so this is something that my husband and I do all the time. We sit down at the beginning of our week and our family meeting and we take a look at how are mom and dad going to get a chance to play? I mean we don't always use those words, but how is dad going to get his golf game in? How is mom going to get her walks and yoga? And we really look at it carefully and advocate for each other, you know, stick up for each other.

Yeah, it's important. I think play is so important. And not just for kids. For us too. It takes practice as well. I think it takes time to relearn how to play. And so I hope all of our listeners are gonna be really gentle and gracious with themselves as they reconnect and re-learn how to do this.

Amanda: Yeah. And I love what you're saying, just your focus and the partnership, but also really understanding each other's inner child and each other's favorite ways to play or give themselves the self-care that they need and really like honoring it.

So it can be easy to be like well, but I want to do this and we need to do this. But that conversation that you have at the beginning of the week is so beautiful of like, really being like how can you get that time and how can I get that time and how do we all have the space to do what we love and feel like ourselves?

Laura: Yeah. Oh gosh, you just keep coming back to that statement. Feel like ourselves. I really like that. I feel like I need to explore that a lot in some journaling. I really just like the idea that play is where we feel most like ourselves. We all need that chance. Oh, that's so beautiful.

Thank you, Amanda, for bringing that nugget to us. I really appreciate it.

Amanda: It’s a pleasure. I've always sound that like why I find play so important is it takes the pressure off. It's like I know that growing up, I was a total perfectionist. I felt like I had to be perfect in every way and I think that play is the space where there's no expectation and that's why we feel like ourselves. It's like who are we if we're not performing? Who are we if we're not needing to complete a task? Who are we when we're just being?

Laura: Yeah, I think that our productivity culture gets in the way of our place so much. It's something that I grapple with in my art all the time, you know because I, I will paint and I'd be like, why do I want to paint? What am I gonna do with all these paintings? They don't do or serve a purpose, you know?

And so productivity absolutely can get in the way of play. And at the same time, it's really important to exercise that muscle of releasing uphold towards productivity, which is really just a cultural thing that's been forced upon us anyway, you know? Absolutely.

Okay, so Amanda, tell us where people can find you and connect with you. Obviously, we have your links in the show notes, but sometimes folks like to hear it out loud.

Amanda: For sure. So you can find me on Instagram. It's @mind_body_soul_miracles or you can just head to my website. So it's www.mindbodysoulmiracles.com and there's plenty of information about me there, but you can also just connect with me on there or book a 30-minute connection session. I would love that.

Laura: Alright, well, thank you so much, Amanda. I really appreciate your expertise and everybody who's following along with the 30 Days of Play Challenge, I hope that you are enjoying it. You can always reach out to me with your questions. I want to support you in this and make sure that the challenges is exactly what you need to start your year off right.

So thanks so much Amanda for joining us and helping us with this conversation.

Amanda: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout-out and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family, and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too.

Alright, that's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!

January 04, 2022

Episode 99: Mindful Tech Use for Parents and Kids with Sophie Brickman

January 04, 2022/ Laura Froyen

The episodes on this month for The Balanced Parent Podcast will all be about PLAY! And so, for this week's episode, I am joined by Sophie Brickman. She is a writer, reporter, and editor who has written for The New Yorker, the New York Times, and other outlets.

Nowadays, play does not only happen through the use of toys and that as we move forward in time, our kids adapt more and more with technology. Hence, play also happens through the use of phones and other gadgets. Sophie will be helping us know how to use technology mindfully.

Here is a summary of our conversation:

Smart toys vs analog blocks
Choosing the right thing to watch without forever scarring our kids
The right age for screen time
Mindful tech use

For more information, visit www.sophiebrickman.com.

TRANSCRIPT

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast we are going to be talking about how technology affects both parenting and kids.

To help me with this conversation, I'm bringing in an amazing human and writer, Sophie Brickman. She wrote a book called Baby Unplugged and it is delightful and filled with a lot of good information and interesting questions.

So Sophie, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you here. Will you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Sophie: Sure, Laura, it’s so so lovely to be here. So I'm a journalist. I'm based in New York. I am the mom of three, relatively newly–the mom of my third. So I have a five and a half year old, and a two and a half year old, and a 4 month old. And I wrote this book mostly because I live with my husband who a, who loves technology.

So we lived in San Francisco for a while, he worked at a startup and he started his own company and now he works very closely with startups and he just loves technology and the power of technology to kind of, you know, make our world a better place. And he himself really likes gadgets and tracking his own metrics and stuff.

So he has, you know, various devices strapped to his body throughout the day and I didn't really, you know, faze me until my oldest daughter was born and she's now five and a half as I said, but her third day on this planet, she came home and Dave strapped a little sock onto her; some sort of smart sort of device that was supposed to track her heart rate or her oxygen level or something.

And you know, I've never taken care of a newborn before. I was a new parent, I hadn't slept in, you know, 72 hours plus or minus however many months that you don't sleep when you're pregnant and I was like okay sure technology can help me parent and make me calmer, like great let's do it.

And then that night in the middle of the night, the alarm went off from this device and was like bleeping through my house and I thought something horrible had happened and Ella was fine. And it had lost connection to our Wi-Fi; we lived in like a you know, crappy walk up with bad Wi-Fi.

And I thought okay this is like a very crystallizing moment where I need to figure out how am I gonna let technology infiltrate her life? And like I've been really thoughtless about it on my own. So I sort of selfishly embarked on this journey to try to figure out where technology could help and where it really, you know, it's just making us more stressed out.

Laura: Yeah, I think you're speaking to something that a lot of us experience in parenting, especially that we engage with certain pieces of technology, whether it's for ourselves, you know, Facebook groups, you know Dr. Google or for their kids–things that are supposed to make things easier, supposed to calm us down, supposed to reassure us, and they end up doing the opposite. At least that's what the data is showing, right?

Sophie: Totally. And I mean like it really is a personal relationship with technology and some people I spoke to really loved the peace of mind that various pieces of technology brought to their house.

For me, I found that by and large a lot of the technology was very, it's all about optimizing things–either optimizing your kid or optimizing that moment. And it made me very anxious because I was like, oh my God, I'm doing something wrong. I could be doing something better. You know, I could be enriching her more, I could be more efficiently changing her diaper or whatever it is.

And you know, you're very vulnerable as parents and you're open to advice like you want information. And so it's sort of, it feels like there's a firehose of information coming at you and a firehose of products being, like I can simplify this for you and so it's very hard to look away.

What I found out doing a research is that it's not necessarily needed and that, you know, on a case by case basis, it might make you much more nervous than you think.

Laura: Yeah, I think you're speaking to something that I've absolutely seen in my Facebook group. So I run a couple of very large Facebook groups and I think I do a pretty decent job in them because most of my, the folks who post in there indicate that they're the only groups that they go into, that they're the ones that they really enjoy being in and that's through design and on purpose.

But I do see things happening where folks are going to the group with questions, when really what I would want to–and invite them to do–is to actually turn inward and sit with themselves for a minute to really sit with what's going on and get in touch with how they are thinking and feeling.

I think that we go for the quick fix; we go through the kind of attempt to defuse the anxiety or the worry of whatever scenario is coming up that we're going to the group for and I think you're speaking to this, like, need to be really intentional with our use of technology and and really aware of, is it serving me? Is the way I'm interacting with it serving me? Or is it hindering something?

Sophie: Absolutely. And I think, I mean like more power to you that people are coming to your groups and really finding those to be a place of solace and care because I find there's a lot of uncurated groups out there that are online.

I wrote a chapter about social media and kind of the question being, you know, can virtual villages either stand in the place of real villages or how best to have them enrich your life, you know, add to your life as a parent.

I'm a member of a bunch of them and I became a member of them even before my daughter was born and it can be incredibly comforting to know that there are however many thousands of strangers out there, what you're going through, you know, if you're up at three in the morning nursing and you're tired and you're this and you go on your phone and there are other people around the world that are going the rest of this with you.

It feels like you're less isolated and you really are in a lot of ways, but I think you need to know what you're going to the groups for and like you said, you know, crowdsourcing information is not always the best for every question.

Laura: Yeah, I think parents today and you know, I know you've done your research, I interact with hundreds of parents every day and so many of them have gotten so conditioned to look for answers outside of themselves.

We don't come up in the same, you know, village environment where we are looking after, you know, cousins and little siblings or we're interacting with lots of different parenting styles kind of, you know, throughout our childhoods were in these like tight knit communities and so we become parents and we really don't know what we're doing.

You know, there's no manual and so we look to the experts, we look for gurus, we look for people to tell us what to do and we are also hyper aware of that what we're doing matters. I think this generation of parents is more aware of the fact that what we're doing with these kids matters for their outcomes.

I think it creates a lot of anxiety and the, you know, the overarching like research on parenting is that good enough parenting is where it's at, you know, the mistakes, you know, balancing it, you know, some good stuff, some bad stuff that's good enough is great and wonderful.

And that one of the biggest things you can do to help a parent is to increase their self efficacy or their self trust in their own skills as a parent. And I think that sometimes when we're conditioned to look outside of ourselves, it really gets in the way of that.

Sophie: Absolutely. And you know, it's interesting that you're talking about this because the, after you finish the book and you send it into the publisher and you're like crossing your T’s and dotting your I's you're trying to figure out you know, both what the title should be and what the subtitle should be.

And so I like agonized over the subtitle and I wanted it to be something that really spoke to this feeling and I'm very happy with what we landed on, but for a while it was about trusting your gut and it's like how do you trust your gut in the age of tech driven parenting when there is so much information coming at you that you feel like you think, you know what to do and then all of a sudden there are another 10,000 people saying like, well why don't you consider this?

And you're like, okay, this is only the most important thing in my life, is raising this child to be successful. Like sure I'll listen, like I'll take a look and then it's very, very hard to pull back, you know the pole frankly like the evolutionary pull towards gathering more information. It is deeply rooted in us. And so it's really hard to look away and it's really at our fingertips.

So I do believe that there are many moments where if you did stop and you took a breath, you would likely know what to do.

The reason I wrote the book is because I thought I knew what to do, but I was like why don't I go to the experts and get legit validation that this is actually what I should be doing? And that was very comforting for me.

Laura: So has there been a point in your own personal parenting journey, Sophie, where you have stopped crowdsourcing and really, you know, moved beyond the like, oh I think this is what I'm going to do. Maybe I should just check in and get some validation and some confirmation and moved into a place of like yeah, I know what to do, I know how to handle this situation.

Sophie: I mean I'm still there and I think that's probably like a journey that we will be on with my kids because every, you know, every two months it feels like there's a whole new ballgame and you're like, wait a second now you're going to kindergarten and now you like have a friend that's doing this thing and you're not, I mean like if you're constantly learning.

But I did have a very good friend who has a child. Her first kid was born in a couple of years before my first and so she's like just ahead of me in this journey and I started going online and getting all this information about all sorts of things like medical stuff, people to look for, you know what, whether or not to use the pacifier, like all sorts of things.

And she said, look if I could give you one piece of advice, it would be to pick a rabbi and what she meant. She was like, just pick one person who's gonna be your person that you go to for advice and just try to stick with them.

And so I thought about it and I was like, okay. And I picked two people because I like couldn't just pick one and I picked the pediatrician who I really adore and who I know is a medical professional. And then I picked my mom and I'm very close with my mom and she's gone through this twice before and I, you know, she was and of course I have my WhatsApp group with very close friends and I will text about little things for sure. But for real advice about that kind of stuff, I found that a couple of curated answers get way more for me and made me much calmer than crowdsourcing.

Laura: Absolutely, I love that. And I love this idea to picking with someone and sticking with them. I think that there's you know, so folks who are in my world are moving away from kind of mainstream, punitive parenting and more into connection-based and respectful parenting. And it's an isolating world when you're doing that. It's a lonely thing; it can be especially if you're in parts of the country in the world where there's limited in-person communities and when your family did things differently.

So when you are making big changes, you know, lots of the folks in my family or sorry, in my–they are kind of like a family in my community–are making really big intergenerational change, you know, that the first people who are not choosing to spank their children for example.

And it's big and isolating cause then they can't go to their mom or that one aunt, you know, because the stuff moves in families and I just want to like see the people who are struggling with that.

Sophie: I'm glad you brought that up. So it's part of the research that I did for that, for the social media chapter involved going to many, many different types of virtual villages and some of them are solely online and some of them are anonymous online and some of them are kind of a hybrid model of trying to get people virtually and then to meet me together.

And one of the most surprising things that I came out about it; I don't know how familiar you are with Reddit, but I was not really on Reddit very much for many things and I had this sort of idea of Reddit as being very like Black Ops and like like the different types of people that that I usually think that would go on it.

And I went to the parenting communities on Reddit and it's very, some of them are just plainly anonymous and then there's kind of another level of anonymity if you want to be like completely anonymous and just be able to share whatever and have nobody have any contact with you.

And there was an enormous amount of warmth in these online communities because people were sharing these grievances and airing these traumas and airing things about parenting that they really didn't feel comfortable talking about with anybody, but they found so much love and support in these communities. And I spoke to a researcher who found that kind of the ability to air taboo subjects often would encourage people to come out of anonymity.

So they were like, look this is my–whatever the case may be–I found out that my child is not really my child, I found out all sorts of traumatic things and they found other people like them and then they came out of anonymity and sort of got a different bond, you know, the online of which can be incredibly powerful. I do not mean to to say that, you know, virtual villages do not stand in the way of it. There's a wonderful power in being able to reach people at the far reaches of the world that are like

Laura: Yeah, and I'm really enjoying the balance in this conversation, you know, so this is The Balanced Parent Podcast and we approach all aspects of the world looking for balance and I really love that there's a place and a time and then there's conscious awareness on, you know, is it actually serving the purpose and looking for it to serve and are there other opportunities? I really appreciated that.

And I also like I really appreciate that, I feel like most books that are about technology and kids really focus on the kids aspect of the technology and I, you know, as a systems thinker. So I see kids as embedded in their contexts and so the parents' experience with technology absolutely trickles down and affects the child. And so I really appreciate it and that you included kind of both sides of that coin.

Sophie: For sure. And I mean, I think just, you know, to speak more to the balance aspect of it. Part of the reason that I wanted to write the book myself is that there are books out there about technology and parenting and there's a lot of information out there about technology engineering, but it's often very there on either end of the extremes.

Often, often it's technology is both the fact of modern life and an unequivocally good thing. And look at all the amazing things you can do with technology and so let's like plug our kids into the wall and have them be particularly enriched and wonderful.

And then on the other side, if like if you show your kids screen, if you're on your phone in front of your screen for your kids, like they will not succeed in life and so like live off the grid and just let your kids wild. And I was like I live in New York City, I can't let my kids run wild, you know, the west side and I'm a modern mother, so I need, you know, I do have my phone and every once in a while I do need to put my kid in front of a screen and I'm interested in this stuff.

How do I do it in a way that feels smart? And how do I do it in a way that feels reasoned and research back, frankly? So that's the kind of balance I needed to do–I'm not saying that it would be wonderful if we all, you know, have kids running around in the wild and with wonderful subsidized child care, you know, that might be wonderful, but that's not my reality. I think there is a need and a want that parents have to figure out how to be balanced with that.

Laura: I so, so agree. I mean there's definitely times where I, like fantasize about like moving to a remote farm with my best friend and just raising our kids together, you know, but that isn't the reality of what our situation is right now. So, but I totally appreciate that.

Okay, so I'm super curious and I know my listeners are, what did you learn about balancing technology for kids? What are some of the big take home points that you found?

Sophie: I mean, I think specifically I think we should talk. You know, we should see the way the book is split up. It's technology for the parents and the technology for the kids half and half.

So like in terms of technology for the parents, there's a lot of technology out there for parents that pushes the idea that if you have a lot of data on your kids, you can somehow make the act of parenting simpler. Or you can, if you know more about your kid and how often they throw their pacifier out of the crib, you can make them sleep longer or whatever. And also that you should be packing all this stuff and crunching numbers on your kid and some people love it.

When I spoke to my pediatrician who was one of my like two people in my corner, he said, you know, we have pediatric visits at certain intervals because that's when we need to be weighing them, measuring their length and measuring their head circumference. And like we're doing the monitoring for you essentially.

So that was something that was very freeing for me. I was like, yeah, maybe it's interesting to be tracking some of this data for her, but do I need to be doing it? Is it critical? No. And then I talked about a lot of different things in the first half of the book.

The second half of the book about technology for kids, which is really a lot about screen time, you know, be that programs that kids are watching or interactive apps that they're playing or e-books. And then there's a chapter about smart toys, like toys that do more than, you know, a box that will be kind of like sexy things for them.

You know, I guess what I found was, you know, there's specific and pragmatic takeaways that you can absolutely get into about how to evaluate the programs that they're going on, how to choose the right television show for them to watch by and large for young kids. You know, less is more.

When you get them, when you agonize about what toy to get and then they end up playing with the cardboard box. You know, that sort of is them telling you like this is what I need, like I need this box and the act, that care that goes into them, turning that box into a spaceship or a sport or whatever it is that they're doing is so beneficial for them. So much more so than various toys or apps that will sort of quote unquote enrich them for you.

Laura: Absolutely. You're reminding me of one of my favorite quotes by Magda Gerber, who is a respectful parenting expert, and she says that active toys make for passive babies and passive toys make for active babies. I think that that has always been a guiding principle when it comes to the toys that we bring into our home.

Sophie: I researched her at length and I spoke to who was the head of Rye, which is you know, the you know, when I started and I was really taken with their philosophy. And there are some extreme versions, like some extreme right practitioners who are like, oh I spoke to and I had like a little doctor's jacket for my daughter because she liked to prepare the pretend doctor. And they were like, no, you can't do that because like the doctor's coat is, can only be a doctor's coat. You want her to be able to put like all of the imagination to everything, that was too extreme for me.

What was an extreme for me was like go into your kitchen, get some bowls, get some things that your kids will have a blast. You probably have all of the toys that you need, you know, in your house already. You don't have to go and buy them.

Laura: Veterinarian. There's lots of things, a dentist coat, there's lots of things, a lab coat. My brother in law is a chemist and so my kids play chemistry professor sometimes, you know, like there's lots of things that a white coat can be used for. So I think that yeah, yeah. No, of course it's okay.

I think this is the balanced piece of it, right? But I did, I used to run a play group pre Covid and absolutely the favorite toy in my like a pack of toys for these babies who were all under a year was a small aluminum bowl. Like that was it. They always, everybody just jump right to it. They would, you know, have baby tussles over who gets to hold it and bang it on the floor. It's.. yeah, I agree. The less is definitely more when it comes to our kids.

Sophie: And it's when you go deep as you have in the Developmental Psychology and it's not just like a phrase, less is more, it's like, it's better for the kid, it's better for their brain, it's better for their gross motor skills, it's better for their fine motor skills. Like the more the baby can do, the more active the baby can be, the better it is for him or her, which is very free and concept for a parent in terms of the anxiety over what it is that your kids should be doing.

Like your kids should be playing with a cardboard box and the movement of goal at a very young age, like that's appropriate for them developmentally and it does, it works wonders for them. to exercise their creativity. It does all sorts of things like the less the toy does for the baby, the better it is.

Laura: Yeah. And what's beautiful about this too, like I can geek out about play all day long, but what I've noticed and you know, and what research says is that kids who have access to passive toys to open-ended toys, they play deeper and longer. And that's something that's really good for parents, you know, once kids, you know, start building in their independent play skills and it is a skill that gives parents a lot of opportunity for self care, for peace and quiet to kind of be off duty while their kids are doing a very important job of playing.

And you know, when kids get used to being entertained either by their toys or by screens, then they do come to expect entertainment in their interactions, right? And we use screens in my family as needed, you know, and absolutely, and has a wonderful benefit to them at, you know, at times and places. But there's absolutely a time where kids come to expect the entertainment value that can get in the way of other things.

Sophie: Totally. And you're circling around something that I spoke about. I was, you know, I was talking to a group of parents about this and there's this question of stamina, it's like, kids need to learn, they need to build the stamina to play on their own.

Laura: Yeah. Capacity.

Sophie: They need to learn to learn to do it; it's a skill, as you said. And so, like I said at the beginning, there's an idea in this technological age that every moment, like that instant gratification is at our fingertips. We should, we should have it, we should give it to our kids. And so if kids start to get agitated off and you'll see a parent throw a screen in front of them or, or, or try to like quash that moment.

If you look at that moment in a totally different way, which is, this is my little kid working through something, getting stronger, learning how to play on their own or handle disappointment or whatever it is that they're working through, like, that's a good thing for me as a parent to be instilling in them. It completely changes the moment in your head. You don't think you need to quash it. If you wash it, you kind of obliterate that moment of them learning.

Laura: And you steal the learning opportunity from them.

Sophie: You know that boredom can be where all the magic happens, you know, calm down a little bit. Like let them work through it for a little bit. Maybe they're gonna cry, maybe they're going to get agitated, but maybe tomorrow they'll give you an extra five minutes where you can do whatever it is that you want to be doing and they can be playing by themselves very happily.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely beautiful. Okay. So now let's talk a little bit about the eBooks piece of things. I think that is something I'm seeing more and more and I I feel kind of curious about what you found in your research.

Sophie: Sure. So as part of my research I spoke to a lot of developmental psychologists, a lot of neurologists, pediatricians and time and time again they would say to me, you know, like books, you can't improve upon a book.

You know, one of my favorite quotes that I got from doing research was a pediatrician who deals with early literacy and he said, and I asked a lot of the same questions to different people and one of the questions I always ask was like what is the single best piece of tech? You know, because that's like a sexy question and you want to be like, okay, if I'm only gonna have one thing I'm gonna have that.

And he said he thought for a while he said, you know, if I went to the smartest minds in the world and I asked them to build me something that would make it smarter and more resilient and more socio emotionally connected. It's like better modern citizens, what would they come back with? They would come back with a book. And they wouldn't come back with an e-book, they'd come back with a print book.

And the reason that books are so good are, there are many reasons. One of them is that it is built for young kids–at least who can't read. It's built to be a shared object; like a kid can't read on their own, they want to look at the pictures, they want to be read to.

And so in the moment of reading to a kid, you're doing a million things at the same time. You're telling them that books are fun and that you can do it together. You're saying this is a sweet, unhurried time, like you can't speed read Goodnight Moon, like the kids just won't pay attention, you know, and so, and you know, verbal exposure has been shown to be very, very important for future success.

There are a million benefits. But I really wanted to understand what's the difference between reading Goodnight Moon on a book in a book and reading Goodnight Moon on your iPad? And there are a lot of differences for very, very young kids.

One of them is that the device that you're reading on is not designed to be a shared object. You know, your iPad or your iPhone as you'll see, like you can't really do the thing with your kids. They, you know, at least with my kids, it's like a lot of elbows come out when you're like, can I take that? And you're like, no get away. So it's very hard to do it together. And also there are a lot of distractions and reading is, you know, it's hard to read. It's hard to figure out what's going on on the page and it is a skill and it's enjoyable.

There's a lot going on in the kid's brain when they're seeing words on a page and pictures on a page. And so distracting–it is not beneficial. I don't know, we could go in a number of different directions, but by and large, if you're able to give your child a print book, that is really a wonderful tool for them.

Laura: Yeah, I just want to highlight some pieces too, this is what I did my PhD. So I love that you're talking about this and you know, really, when it comes to shared book reading, which is one of the biggest things that parents can do for their kids. The research on it is actually that it's more about the relationship that it builds; the closeness and the connection and the attachment relationship benefits than anything that they're really doing.

I mean those print concepts are learned as they're turning the page and learning the direction that, you know, the text flows. But really that relationship that you're building; the warmth and the snuggled up-ness of it is so important too and it doesn't go away with age. You know, my kids are nine, and six and a half and we still, as a family lay in our big bed every night and read a story together and that closeness is just a beautiful thing to keep going in.

Sophie: I'll bring up something that came up after the book was published. But that, there is something called the NAEP, which is like kind of the national report card. And so the government takes, does surveys, kids who are nine and thirteen about various things to get a sense for how they're doing academically. And one of the questions that they started asking in 1984 was, how often do you read for joy?

And this past year where the data had been collected pre-pandemic, so it was a 2020 NAEP, but all the data came from before the pandemic hit, was that the lowest number of kids ever reported reading for fun. This year was a historical loan. And so kids nine and thirteen are not looking to books as much as an object for fun and joy.

And that is that you know, you cannot draw a direct line between screen time and books at all. There are many, many factors. It's multifactorial. But using screens does displace other activities and one of those activities that it displaces is reading and I think, you know, when you look at academic success and how they, directly related it is to reading and being read to, it gets very scary and very damning as a society that you know, I think it's, I have to look this up, but I think it's 1 in 3 eight graders do not ever throughout the week one time pick up a book for fun and that's when

Laura: Oh gosh it's heartbreaking.

Sophie: It's awful and so you can start habits early, like habits do start early. And so the earlier you can start reading to your kids, the better.

I mean the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends reading to your kid from birth, which like feels really silly because they're like there's like a burrito here who they can barely see what are we doing. So they can feel the warmth, they can feel the love. It's about, as you said, it's about at the young ages, it's about this broadband connection that they're feeling around this activity.

Laura: Yeah. You know, there's even research that babies who were read certain books in utero prefer the cadences of those books outside. So I mean, yeah, we read while I was pregnant to both of the kids, which we're I think we're on board, you know, I feel like we're kind of, you know, let's bring some balance into the conversation. What did you find around when technology is really useful and positive to bring into your home and into your kids’ lives?

Sophie: I think one very specific positive that we found was FaceTime, particularly during the pandemic. Like we lived seven blocks from my parents, so we didn't make it very far, but during the pandemic and in the early days of the pandemic, when everybody was very, very anxious. You know, my parents didn't leave their house and we hardly left our house, we were in lockdown and we FaceTime every day.

And you know, there is something about the verbal back and forth that makes FaceTime and video chatting in general, not as negative at all in the eyes of researchers as other types of screen time. And so that's something that we employ all the time.

I think, you know, similarly like sharing photos and the photo stream was an amazing way to connect with my parents and, and my husband's parents and let them know what was going on in their kids' lives. And then we are absolutely, we’re not an anti-tech family at all. And so we watch movies and we, you know, we let the kids watch screens every once in a while.

And I think, you know, one of my big takeaways from this was that if you can watch something together with your kids and use whatever is on the screen the same way that you might with a book, what you're doing is you're having a shared experience.

And you know, we watched Willy Wonka or Charlie and the Chocolate Factory the other day, which I don't remember watching since I was very very little, but like, it was wonderful and a lot of fun. And now we listen to the soundtrack and Gene Wilder is like singing all over the house. and I think, I think there are ways to use technology in a way that's really magical and wonderful.

You know, something that I'm sure you're familiar with and in your research and background is you know this this term ‘serve and return interactions’, which is something coming up against, which is having a conversation with your kid, you know, at whatever, meeting them at whatever age they are.

So like my my son is four months old. He just started smiling, like he smiles, I smile. Like that's our serve and return interactions. With my two year old, it was different. With my five year old, it's different.

But the idea is if you can have as many serve and return interactions as possible, it's really good for your kids. And one of the ways to do that is to kind of share whatever is going on in the screen. And so we try to watch things together. Of course you want to put your kid in front of the screen often so that you don't have to watch with them. You know, I haven't watched Frozen all 900 times that my daughters have watched it, but you know, I know what's going on. I know some of the songs, we can sort of like talk about it after they watch it. All of that is good stuff for them.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's so many opportunities for shared experiences too. You know, just, yeah, it definitely can be very mindful and especially as kids get older and start, you know, wanting to, you know, interact with social media and technology more independently or more with their peers, having built the practice of being involved in sharing the technological experience that, you know, in our family, we keep iPads in the living room, you know, and not in rooms. In our family, you know, when we're, you know, playing games, mom's nearby, you know, and here to help.

Having a culture of that, I think as kids move into the teen years, lets you be, continue to be more present and aware of what's going on in terms of their technology. I'm not looking forward to those days when my kids enter the teen years and I have to start learning how to like set parent controls. I don't have to do that yet. It's so overwhelming.

Sophie: I'm like, I'm just like hopeful that maybe something will be figured out by the time that she hits on anyone, but like God, I don't know, I don't know one day at a time.

Laura: Yeah, right. I think like the folks who are in that place, the general, you know, kind of takeaway is that kids will always be able to get around your parenting, your parent controls on your apps and devices. And so it's far better to invest our time in building trusting relationships with our children so that there isn't a need, you know, a felt need for moving around controls.

Sophie: One of the doctors that I spoke to, who has done an enormous amount of research on, I think I interviewed him about the importance of play and you know, how smart choice might not be as enriching as, as they are marketed as being.

He likened early parenting to a bank, and he was like thinking about investing the time in your kids when they're younger. And he's like the door doesn't shut at any point, but it gets smaller and smaller and so when they're younger, if you can kind of put the time in and invest in them then later on when they're 13, 14 when they're having a fight about whatever, or you can sort of pull on that as an investment. Like it'll look through over time.

And I like that idea. It's like you have these years, you know, it pertains to like quashing the moment with the screen or letting them work through it. If you let them work through it and you learn what takes them off or you learn more about them, you're building that foundation. And you're learning more about who they are as people and how they interact with you in the world around them.

And later on when you have that rock solid foundation, when they wanna, you know, skirt something on the screen and go do something bad, like maybe they won't, or maybe they'll come talk to you about it or or what have you, you know

Laura: I totally agree. All of this stuff seems really small now, but it does pay out dividends later. For sure.

Well, Sophie, I really appreciate this conversation that you've had with us. Thank you so much for being here. Why don't you make sure everybody knows where they can get your book. It’s a great one to check out.

Sophie: Thank you. You can get it wherever books are sold, like hopefully at your local independent retailer, but you can get it at Amazon or anywhere else too. My website is just my name .com. If you want to, you can reach out to me there directly.

And my hope with the book–one little parting thing is–a lot of parenting books out there, which can be very helpful and wonderful or kind of more self help or like how to’ books and this absolutely has to have a lot of practical takeaways–how do you navigate this, what programs are better, and how to evaluate it–but it really was a personal story.

It's kind of part memoir, part research and so my hope is that parents who leave this will feel some sort of solidarity and like comfort in the fact that I'm going through all of this stuff with you.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too.

December 31, 2021

Episode 98: How to Actually Enjoy Playing with Your Kids

December 31, 2021/ Laura Froyen

No matter what the last year has looked like for you, I want you all to know that I am so proud of you for all the efforts you've made into finding more connection, joy, and balance in your life. You have showed up here and in your homes with love, commitment, and grace and it absolutely shows! And I want you to know how truly honored and grateful I am for trusting me to be a part of your journey. 💕 Okay, are you all set up with our Annual 30 Days of Play Challenge? We began on January 2nd but there is still PLENTY of time to join us! If you haven't signed up yet, don't worry, you're not behind, you can just jump right in today. There really is no "behind" for our kids or for us as parents. There is only starting where we are, in the here and now, and moving forward with intention at the pace that is right for us!

If you are participating in my Play Challenge, then you know that I asked you all to fill out a survey to get a starting point for the challenge. And one of the things I learned from your answers that the majority of you are hoping to learn how to actually enjoy playing with your kids AND want to connect with them on a deeper level. So that's what this week's podcast episode covers!

Here is a summary of what I covered on this episode:

Mindset shifts to enjoy play.

1. Know yourself, what you like, and your boundaries.

2. How to be genuinely interested with your child's play.

3. Drop into the present moment and connect with your child.

4. Shift how you view your role in your child's play to make play more fun.

5. Figure out how to create a practice of showing up for play with your kids. I will be discussing more about play through a series episodes for this month on The Balanced Parent Podcast so stay tuned for that!

TRANSCRIPT

Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we're going to talk about how to actually enjoy playing with your kids even when it's not really your thing or you're feeling too overwhelmed and stressed out to really enjoy it.

A lot of us get asked by our kids to play with them and we have so many presses on our time. So many things that pull on our attention so many things on our to-do list can be really hard to drop into the present moment with them and actually enjoy playing with them. And we hear a lot as parents that we need to be playing with our kids, that it's really important for them. And I want to just start off by being perfectly honest with you.

Well, I love play and children's play. I, as you know, we're heading into our play challenge month where we spend the whole month of January really dedicated and focused on play because it is incredibly important for young children and honestly for adults too.

Humans have a unique relationship with play that is unlike some of the other animals in the animal kingdom. And it's something that we should be focusing on and encouraging throughout the lifespan, but especially in childhood, you know.

As you know, we love play around here, we geek out about it. We spend the whole month of January focusing on play and if you want to join the play challenge, this is a perfect time to get signed up. The link is in the show notes, it's laurafroyen.com/playchallenge.

But because of all the emphasis that's on play, I think sometimes people get the idea that I love playing with my kids and I don't always. There are certain things I love to do with my kids, but a lot of the play that you find cumbersome or tedious or annoying or a little frustrating. I experienced those feelings around play too.

I want you to know that you're not alone and you're not abnormal and the play that our children are doing, it's really, really unique and it's happening in a developmental context that is completely appropriate for them and isn't necessarily appropriate for us. And so it makes sense that we don't always love it. Plus, we have so many other things that weigh on our minds and press on our time that it is really hard to drop into the present moment with our kids.

And the other thing I think that really can get in our way is that we have some idea in our mind of what playing with our kids means, you know. So if I asked you right now to close your eyes and picture a parent playing with their child, you would probably picture a parent may be on the ground, maybe dressed up having a tea party or you know, really actively engaged in the play where they are being, you know, really exciting and do all the fun voices and tell their kids an elaborate story where there really involved in the play.

And well some parents enjoy that type of play when it comes to actually what kids want and need from parents when we're playing with them. That's exactly what they need. You know, so when our kids say play with me mama, what they really mean is see me, hear me drop into the present moment with me; be with me.

They don't really mean entertain me, you know, show me how to play, teach me how to play and so all those active things that we picture, you know when we picture playing with our kids, that's not exactly what kids are looking for or what they need.

And so I want to invite you today to start shifting some of the ways you think about playing with your kids and I'm going to offer you five important shifts that you can make playing with your kids more enjoyable for you and more fulfilling and nurturing and connecting for them, and help you set some boundaries around when you do want to play and what types of play you want to do and give you permission to really be your authentic self with your children.

So one of the things I think just before we dive into those five shifts is that it's really important that we be our authentic selves with our kids. We’re not fully present with our kids when we are, you know, they say play with me and we sit down and play but we're still checking, you know, our email from work, we're thinking about you know how we need to add some things to the shopping list or we need to get started on dinner.

They can tell when we're not fully with them. They can also tell when we say yes to a game or a type of play that we're not really interested in. They can feel that. Children are very naturally attuned to the emotional state and presence of their parents. They have to be, that's part of the attachment system that regulates kind of distance and relationships between, you know, physical and emotional proximity between caregiver and a child.

And so they are attuned to us very closely and carefully and it's quite confusing to them when we say, oh yes, I want to play with you, but they can feel that kind of that pull away or that kind of oh, I don't really want to be doing this. So it's really important that we’re authentic and honest with our kids.

You know, some of the shifts I'm going to be offering today might help you more authentically enjoy playing with your kids so that the things that you normally would say no to, you actually enjoy better. Shifting your mindset so that you can go into them with an open heart without resentment and authentically enjoy them.

But the very first shift that is so important is that you really get to know yourself and what you like and where your boundaries are and what you're okay with. The type of play that you're interested in with them that you can authentically pour yourself into. Knowing when and where you have time and space and energy for that type of play and only saying yes to play when it is a 100% yes.

It's really important to model 100% yeses to our kids and so if you can't authentically, truly enjoy it, then don't do it. Give yourself permission to say no to have a pass on those things. It's really important to sit down and get to know yourself as a parent, get to know yourself as an adult and your relationship with play, and what you like and doing with your kids– what fills you up, what brings you joy and what you don't like necessarily doing with your kids. What drains you, what feels like too much–and so being really honest with yourself.

And this is actually something that our 30 Days of Play Challenge that we do in January that starts, I think when you're hearing this, if you're listening to this on the day it releases, starts in just a couple of days.

One of the purposes of this 30 Days of Play Challenge is not just to get to know your kids through play, but I also get to know yourself as a parent through play and really being able to be honest with yourself and with your children so that you can have a true, authentic relationship–not one that is, builds on kind of hiding your true self, but one that is celebrating your true selves and their true yourself and finding that common ground.

So that's the first tip. If you can't authentically enjoy it, if it's going to lead to resentment, it's our responsibility to set those boundaries and to say no with grace and compassion. And then that leads us into finding some common ground and some interests that you do share.

I know a lot of you reached out to me when I was prepping for this play challenge and this is something that you can struggle with at times where maybe one parent shares a lot of interest with kids and it's harder for the other parent to get into those interests or sometimes kids have very specific interests.

Like my niece, for example, is really into some Japanese anime shows that are just not my thing. I'm not terribly interested in them, but my sister, her mom, is. And seeing them connect over them is really beautiful.

And so there's this piece of like recognizing when we enjoy the things that our kids like and what we don't enjoy, but there's usually an opportunity for common ground. There's usually an opportunity where some of the interests do overlap. We might have to get really creative to find those.

And then there's this other piece of it that if we don't if we really don't share in the interests and our kids are super into something. There's this piece of, we don't exactly have to be super into the thing that they're into, but we can be super into them. We can be really, really interested in them and that can give us a little bit more access to diving into a topic that is not necessarily our thing with them.

This is something that I do a lot with my niece and nephew and my niece is really interested in these anime shows and my nephew is super into Minecraft and Roblox and they just aren't something that I have experienced with, but when they want to talk about it or show me one of the things that they're playing, I drop into the present moment with them, I put my phone away and I really listen and seek to learn. Drop into curiosity and it's not that I'm interested necessarily in learning about Minecraft or Roblox, it's that I'm interested in learning about my nephew who's interested in those things.

And so that is a really powerful mindset shift that is important. So if you can't find that common ground, you're shifting your mindset into what are you actually interested in? It doesn't have to be the thing that they're interested in, but you can be interested in them.

Another aspect of shifting your mindset which is my third tip, of course, you all know me so well, hopefully by now, you know that mindset is everything in my opinion. So shifting again into this place of really focusing on enjoying them even if it's not something that you enjoy. Understanding that really what's going on here is that you are wanting to connect with them.

So Renee Brown tells us that in order to feel connected, we need to feel seen, heard and valued. And dropping into the present moment during a child's play is one of the easiest ways to help a child feel seen, heard and valued.

That's one of the reasons why in my 30 Days of Play Challenge, we spend the whole first 10 days doing nothing but observing our children's play because it really helps us drop into that present moment and communicate quite clearly how much we value their play and how interested we are in them and how much we see and hear them.

We're going to dive deeper once you've signed up for it, the Play Challenge. I have a private podcast that's just for the play challenge. So it's all in one place and we're going to dive deep into how to be a good observer.

But this is a big piece of it, shifting your mindset and really understanding that it's not about the play, it's not about what they're telling you what to do or you know, whether you're entertaining enough or if it's fun enough–it's about the connection is really what it's about and there is benefit in whatever play they're doing.

So oftentimes, I think that parents think that we have to play in a certain way with kids, but really usually what we need to do is step way back and let them lead the play and that they intuitively know what play is right and beneficial for them. And then if we step back kind of step out of the way and are just present with them, let them lead and direct the play, that's where the benefit really is.

And this is something that I know a lot of parents reach out to me on–that their young kids are super directive in their play and they don't really like playing with their kids because they just get bossed around or they get told that they're doing it wrong or you're saying it wrong or no mama don't do that, no daddy don't do this–and that isn't exactly as fun as what they were hoping to do, that, they want to be playing with their kids, but the way that their kids are in the play is a little off-putting.

And so that's something that is really important to wrap your head around, that if your kid is being directive in their play, that means that they've got some agenda for the play, that the play is serving a really deep purpose for them; one that we might not fully understand as grown-ups and if they're being that directive, they have the need to express themselves through that play or process something through that play and they want to kind of use us as a toy or as a play object to help them reflect on whatever it is that they're going through.

And so this brings us to the kind of, the fourth shift that I wanted to introduce to you is really shifting how you view your role in your children's play. I know I touched on this before, but so often we think that we need to entertain our kids and this starts really young–little babies. We shake a rattle in front of our kids’ face and we distract them from what they were focusing on.

I remember watching one of my daughters when they were little; observing flecks of dust floating through the light and I was just enthralled watching her watch this light. It was beautiful. She focused on it for so long and it was play, she was playing. That's what play is–a deep-in-the-moment experience; a developmental experience.

And so she was an infant. She was watching this it’s beautiful and my well meaning wonderful parent was there and she stuck a rattle in front of her face and shook it and distracted her. And in that moment, unintentionally, a child learns that what I'm doing isn't quite right.

You know, there's better ways to spend my time than where my intuition tells me to spend my time and attention. It breaks concentration. So the very skills that we want our kids to have when they're older, we get in the way of them developing naturally through play. And so I really want to encourage you as a parent to to start shifting your role from one of the person who needs to be directing the play.

Another thing that, you know, folks ask me, they think in this play challenge that we're gonna get lists of games to try with their kids or lists of activities to try with your kids, you know, setups and invitations and stuff. And I'm not gonna do any of that in this play challenge because I actually want you doing the exact opposite.

I want you stepping out of the play director role; out of the kind of the early childhood educator role–the role of the person who is setting up the play or making sure that the play is happening in the way that we as the adults think it's supposed to happen.

A big piece of this challenge, and I think the most transformative part of this challenge for listeners who participated in the past and feel free to let me know if this is true for you, is shifting out of that role. Releasing responsibility for your children's play by returning responsibility for your children's play to them.

They're the owners of the play, they're the creators of the play. They are the ones who benefit from it. They're the ones who know how to do it, why to do it. They don't need to be taught or shown how to do it. If we are consistently kind of stepping back, getting out of the way, projecting confidence in them and staying present with them as they lead the play.

So, a lot of us kind of step into the role of director in play and I want to stepping back into being an assistant and letting the child really be the director of the play. So are one of those parents who was like, oh my gosh, my kids always telling me what to do when I play, like that's a really good sign. That's what we want. You are already ahead of the game because they will know just what to do.

And this is the perfect time to be using one of my very favorite tools and I'll have you experiment with, and I'll teach you more about in the challenge on the Stage Whisper where you really return responsibility for the play to the child and they love it.

So your role in their play does not need to be active, it needs to be quite passive and the other piece of that, like that's really important to understand is that play, as beautiful and natural and the developmental process as it is, it's also a skill; a muscle that your kids can build.

So if you are struggling with getting your kids to play independently while you relax or or do other things around the house, just know that you need to take an honest look about how you are interacting with them in their play.

So if when you are playing with them, you know, one on one with one of your kiddos, if you're doing a lot of the heavy lifting in the play, deciding what to play, making suggestions for what to do, making you know, characters.

If you're playing with dolls, be really silly and fun and entertaining and you know, getting lots of good laughs from the kids. If you're doing those things though–that's the heavy lifting of the play, that's the work of the play. And when we do that, we take away the opportunity for the kids to build those muscles.

And so one of the beautiful things about this challenge is that, for just 10 minutes a day, I'm asking you to show up a little bit differently with your kids in regards to play. You don't have to change anything else. This challenge is very light; there's not a lot to do in it.

All I'm asking you to do is just to take, you know, 10 minutes broken up throughout the day and really think about the play that you are and the way you are interacting with your children's play. Observe them, observe yourself and show up just a little bit differently in their play. Then perhaps you currently are and then see what happens.

It's always amazing to me in this challenge–around the third or fourth day, I start getting floods of messages from people who are taking the challenge around, you know, my kid who never was able to play by themselves before now just played for 20 or 30 minutes while I clean the kitchen or while I watched them play. I mean it was amazing, it's amazing with just a simple little shift in how you show up to the play changes their ability.

And of course, you know, if we've been playing for them or doing some of the heavy lifting for a while, it can take kids some time to adjust to us showing up in a new way. It can be uncomfortable for these kids if they learn to expect certain things from their environment and their interactions with us and when we change things, there can be some growing pains as they grow and stretch and learn how to show up differently themselves in their play.

But it doesn't mean that's a bad thing. It's quite a good thing because remember, as I said before that when kids ask us to play with them, they might not necessarily want you really in their play and doing things for them. What they really want is us with them. They want us not doing, they want us being with them.

Okay. And so that brings us to our very last tip or kind of shift is figuring out how to create a practice where you are showing up for play with your kids in this really unique way and that you are doing a really good job of setting boundaries for yourself.

I know we talked a little bit about boundaries when it comes to kind of, if you can't authentically enjoy it, don't do it. And this is where we kind of take that to the next level. So making sure that you have a good sense of when you are available for play, how long you kind of can make it, how long is a good amount of time where you feel good while you're doing it.

And at what point does it shift into feeling like, oh, I'm done. I feel I'm starting to feel resentful. I'm starting to not like this. I think this is something that is really important. It's something that I teach in Respectful Parenting when I won my intro course. It's really important that we set boundaries for ourselves with our kids in a way to prevent there being stress or strain on our relationship that they can't possibly be responsible for.

So all relationships have times where there's tension or stress or strain on them–that's what builds resilient relationships, but it's our responsibility to set boundaries that set the relationship up for success.

And so for example, let's say we've had a really long day at work. We come home. We picked the kids up from school or from daycare and right away they want to play play, play, play, play play. We're tired and so we say, okay kiddo, I've got 10 minutes before I've got to make dinner. Let's you and me sit down and we'll you know, we'll play or maybe we'll read some stories; things that you like that you have the energy for. You sit down and you do those things and when the 10 minutes is up and it's time for you to go make dinner, they say no play with me more.

At that point, you have a choice to make. You can, even if you know you don't really have time, you know you're gonna be rushed later and you know that you're going to feel a little bit maybe resentful of having to keep playing. I mean you're done, you're touched out, you're tired from your day. They don't know any of those things. Right?

So if you've got a four or five-year-old, they don't know that you're playing for 5 minutes longer, 10 minutes longer, 20 minutes longer. It's going to make dinner late, it's gonna make you stressed, it's going to make them get to bedtime late and make everybody cranky the next morning. They don't have the cognitive skills to think that far ahead. So it's our responsibility to be in that place and hold a boundary that sets everybody in the family up for success. I know this is a lot of pressure on a family, on a parent but that is our role.

And so when they say no no no more mama. Five more minutes. Five more minutes. It's our job to be really settled and confident in that, yes, of course, my sweetheart, I would love to play all evening. And at the same time somehow dinner has got to be made and there's it's just me who's got to make it and if we don't make dinner now, we’ll be late, getting to you know, eating dinner, you'll get hungry.

It's hard for you to play with your sister when you get too hungry because then you everybody gets a little cranky and so I've got to go make dinner now. I would love to be able to keep playing with you. I just can't right now, let's make a date for after dinner.

What what what type of, you know, what books do you want to read together after dinner or after dinner? We'll have, you know, we usually have about 20 minutes to enjoy some playtime in the bath. What toys do you think you're gonna want to play with in the bath?

So making a little bit of a plan for later, filling up their connection bucket first before they, you have to separate while your attention is directed elsewhere. Really holding that boundary firm. It doesn't do your kids any good to waffle on a boundary that, you know, you should set when, you know, they don't have all the information.

They don't know that if you say yes to five more minutes of playing or yes to 10 more minutes of reading at bedtime, they don't know that you're gonna end up kind of feeling grumpy with them or frustrated with them or that they might end up tired. They don't know those things. It's our job to kind of project into the future and protect the relationship.

So setting those good boundaries with your child, but also when it comes to playing with your kids, it's important for you to set boundaries with yourself. So for example, during these, you know, 10 minutes when the kids come home, the first really for at our house, it's about the first 30 minutes that they're in the house.

My husband and I put our phones away because there's always more emails to check. There's always more messages on Instagram from you, wonderful folks, to check. And that really pulls our attention away from the kids when they need us to pour into them connection wise. And so we just put our phones away. And that's a boundary that we set with ourselves to set ourselves up for success.

So figuring out what boundaries we need in place in order to be able to fully be present and fully enjoy playing is so important. And you know what the boundaries that I've been stating right now, those are the ones that work for me. The ones that will work for you are likely very different.

You all have wonderful families and wonderful circumstances that make your lives incredibly unique. And your children are unique–they have unique play needs that mine might not have.

And so really sitting down and carefully taking a look at–what do I need in place in order for me to be able to enjoy being fully present and playing with my kids.

And one thing for me that I've noticed is that if I have clients, my wonderful one on one clients are classes that I'm teaching in my membership that bump up against when my kids come home so that I end the class and then they're like walking in the door. There's no buffer for me to kind of drop into presence with myself. Take a little bit of a relaxed, you know.

The work that I do is quite emotionally–there's an emotional investment in it, giving myself some time to bounce back. I'm not able to be fully present with my kids and so that boundary comes earlier for me. I have to make sure that in my calendar where I'm scheduling things, I'm leaving that buffer of time for myself before the kids get home so that I can be fully present. And I was working outside the home that looked like getting to daycare five minutes early, sitting in the car and doing like a five minutes self compassion meditation before I went in.

So these buffers don't have to be very big. You're the one who's working outside of the home and you're coming home and the kids are waiting for you at home, sitting in the garage for a couple of minutes just to kind of get your head on straight, can be really great to give you that buffer. But again, you know best what you need in order to be successful.

And I guess I hope in this conversation I've relieved some of the pressure, like it's okay to not always want to play with your kids and you know, I guess I think I was about to confess this at the beginning and I never actually did.

So I don't play with my kids most of the time. Most of the time my two kids, they're 6 and 9 and once they were maybe two and a half, they play pretty much independently or together most of the time. They will still, you know, sometimes ask me to play a specific game with them, but most of the time, if we're really connecting together, we will be doing it through art, coloring–which I really enjoy, baking, playing board games.

But a lot of the imaginative play that is so good for kids and that we kind of think we're supposed to be doing, really happens just between themselves or just on their own independently. And that's something that is, again, it was on purpose because I wanted my kids to be able to play independently, it's by design.

We've worked really hard to build those skills and a lot of the things again that I'm teaching in the 30 Days of Play Challenge which is entirely free, they’re the very things that will set you up to kind of get on that path. So let me just introduce the Play Challenge to you a little bit.

And so this Play Challenge really is designed to help you get to know your child and connect on a deeper level with them through play. Again, there won't be any lists of games or activities to play. We're really focusing on learning how to let your child lead.

So the parent is really learning how to kind of lean in and exercise that skill of standing back, of sitting on your hands, biting your tongue, and really accepting, fully accepting how the child shows up and play. And then we're giving space for the kiddos to build those skills and exercise those independent play muscles.

And I just want to just wrap up by saying that, you know, playing with our kids often feels hard because we feel responsible for it. Like it feels like it's a job, that's something that we have to do and make sure happens just right for our kids.

And I just I guess I just want to make sure that you know that you can release that responsibility, that's one that you can let go and fall off of your shoulders. And it is my hope that in joining this Play Challenge, that's exactly what you will learn–that this challenge really is designed to get you out of that role and out of your kids' way so that they can access deeply immersive healing play with or without you.

In the challenge, it's broken up into three parts. In the first part, you will learn how to observe play like a social scientist and you'll learn how to nonjudgmentally observe your child's play in a way that makes them feel truly seen and heard and helps you get to know them better. It's practically a mindfulness practice. So it's really good for your stress response system as well.

In the second set of 10 days, you will learn how to reflect and process what you're observing like a therapist would. You will reflect on the purpose and role that play serves in both your child's life and your own life–we have a couple of great episodes on the podcast to kind of go with this aspect of it too and you'll be getting crystal clear on any blocks that you have around play; play with your kids and play just on your own as well.

And then in the last 10 days of the 30 Day Challenge, you will learn how to take action like a play therapist. You'll be supported in taking direct and specific actions to support deeper, more meaningful play in your child and a richer, more joyful connected relationship for the two of you.

So that's my hope and intention and then we wrap the whole thing up with a webinar on where I teach you how to connect more deeply with your children through play. As a part of this challenge, I always do invite folks to, you know, if you're wanting to learn more about play and the impact it can have on your kids and on your relationship,, I do have some courses that are available.

So, I have two play courses. One is called Purposeful Play where I teach you how to use play really intentionally throughout your days with your kids to help them prepare for new things, process hard feelings and kind of events that they might, you know, be going through and really like use it with purpose. So it's a fun course; it's very light. I do a lot of playing in it, a lot of play demonstrations.

Ad then I have another course called Playful Healing, which was really designed to help you build a practice of holding healing play sessions with your child and that course is really good for you if you're feeling disconnected from your kiddo, like you don't really know them, they're growing up, they're slipping away. It's been a while since you felt really connected with them or if there's lots of big feelings happening in your home–that's a great course.

So you'll be hearing more about those courses in the coming weeks, but I'm hoping that you'll join me for this Play Challenge, it's one of my favorite times of the year in The Balanced Parenting Community.

So go ahead and follow the link, get signed up the daily posts, reflection posts will be posted on my Instagram page, and in my private Facebook group, and of course there will be the private podcast to go along with it, where you will be getting all of the trainings that go along with the Play Challenge.

I know that it can be kind of confusing to have two podcasts of mine going on at the same time. So this podcast where you're listening to, this is just going to be kind of general content. We are focusing on play, but none of the trainings for the play challenge are here. This is kind of just bonus material that everybody can access and find beneficial even if they aren't doing the play challenge.

But if you want to dive deeper, you want to learn more you want to build these skills that we've been talking about today, that's what the Play Challenge is for. It's created for you with you in mind and I love supporting you and learning how to connect on a deeper level with your kiddos through their most natural language, play.

Alright, so I hope to see you in the challenge. If there are any questions you can always feel free to reach out to me or my team at laurafroyen.com. Alright, see you in the challenge.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review that really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.

December 28, 2021

Episode 97: Becoming Unbusy with Monica Berg

December 28, 2021/ Laura Froyen

As we settle into this space between the winter holidays and the New Years, I want to invite you all to slow down and drop into the present moment with yourself. Let's just take a minute to check in. How are you doing? No really, how have you been.

I don't know about you, but I've been feeling a bit harried, overwhelmed, and honestly, burnt out. I always have this big push in December as I prepare for our annual 30 Days of Play Challenge, the winter holidays, and everything else, and this year has been no different. And with the added layer of another Covid Christmas... It's a lot. But one thing I have been doing that has made it all a bit easier is to take short, simple, self-compassion breaks. I would love to invite you try it with me, right now!

Place your hand over your heart and repeat these words (aloud if you're comfortable):

May I be safe & protected.

May I be happy in body, mind, & spirit.

May I live in comfort & ease.

That's it! Repeat these words (or similar phrases with the same energy of self kindness and grace) as often as you need to. A mindfulness practice does not need to be big or complicated to reap loads of benefits! LET ME KNOW IF YOU TRY IT!

And if you're looking for another way to invite more mindful presence, and connect with your kids at the same time, I would love to have you join us in our play challenge this year. I know you're likely thinking "Laura, what does mindfulness & kids play have to do with each other??" The answer is, EVERYTHING when you approach it in the way we do in my Annual 30 Days of Play Challenge.

In the challenge you will learn how to drop into a mindful, nonjudgmental and presence-filled state with your child and it has the potential to not only improve your own and your child's wellbeing, but that of your relationship too. Plus, folks who do this challenge see a dramatic increase in their children's ability to play independently, which is 100% my number 1 secret for taking good care of myself and staying balanced as a parent. As we know, to a child "love" is spelled "T-I-M-E"(Zig Zigler) and this challenge helps you figure out how to get the time that everyone needs to feel balanced & connected

As we discuss in this week's episode of The Balanced Parent podcast with guest Monica Berg, our relationships with time and how we spend it is of vital importance to our feelings of satisfaction and fulfillment in parenting.

Here is an overview of our conversation:

Reevaluating the way we spend not just our time but our life
Reconnecting with our old selves and finding non time as busy parents
Relationship between non time and un-busying our selves
How to get unstuck and un-busy

To get more resources, follow Monica on social media and check her website.
Instagram: @monicarberg74
Twitter: @monicaberg74
Facebook: @monicaberg74
Website: rethinklife.today

TRANSCRIPT

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura for again and on this week's episode of the balanced parent podcast we're going to be talking about how to become unbusy and to help me with this conversation I'm bringing in a guest and colleague, Monica Berg, she is a speaker thought leader and author of Fear is Not An Option and Rethinking Love and the host of the Spiritually Hungry podcast Monica, Welcome to the show. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Monica: Thank you for having me. It's good to join you today. Basically I live my life with the intention of helping people rethink almost pretty much everything they think they know with the hope of people living their best life and finding their purpose and their passion and living a life where they're first and foremost honest with themselves and have no shame or guilt in pursuing the things that they truly desire.

That's why I'm really excited about the topic today because I think often we can get busy with the wrong things and distracted really by other people's desires and needs demands and that is a formula I think a recipe for a bit of unhappiness.

Laura: Tell me more about the piece where the getting busy with things that are not our actual priorities or goals. Why do we do that? Why did we get bogged down in that piece of things?

Monica: Well, I think it happens more with women to be honest, although it can happen to both sexes, but I think that women are raised to be caretakers and nurtures and you know, to really be in touch with their feelings and be empathetic with others. And so and that's okay. But if you don't find a time in your life or make it really a priority to really get to know yourself to hear what you desire to not be afraid to go after it, then that voice, that internal dialogue becomes almost muted.

And then what you really do here is the external demands, opinions, expectations of others. And then once you're in that kind of loop, it's hard to get away from it and it's hard to navigate, you know, because the voice that's really loud is somebody else's and then you find yourself and kind of a rut maybe you know, 20 years down the line, it doesn't happen right away.

Laura: Everybody struggles with this. I see it with the dads that I work with a lot too. So their partner will say like you focus on things that are not that important to our family. I think it's all of us get bogged down into kind of what we think we're supposed to be doing in the should, you know, and very much less on what actually would bring us lasting happiness and fulfillment, right?

Monica: Yeah. And I also think it has to just be as simple as you know, how we view time. I mean it's something we all have the exact same amount of right. You and I both have the same minutes in this day, but unless you are really a timekeeper, right, and you manage your time, you guard your time. I'm gonna have a bunch of different tools and tips I can give you as we go through our conversation today.

But unless you really understand that the importance of your time, it's easy to say, okay I'll do this other thing right now and I'll get to the really important thing later, I'll do these five things on my to do list first and then I'll get to the other things later and before you know it, you know, the day is gone and the day becomes weeks and months and years and that's just your reality. And then you're like, how did I get here? How is it that I'm not actually manifesting, achieving or accomplishing anything that I truly desire?

Laura: Yeah. And so what's the solution? What do we do to not get caught up in that?

Monica:Well, there's a few, so let's go because I have a bunch of, I'm really a kind of person that, you know, immediate action. So you have first thought, right, you change your consciousness and then you follow up with immediate action because if not then, you know, it's a great conversation, but no real change occurs. And as you know, I call myself a change junkie, very much addicted to change, which was not how I came into the world. That was also an evolution.

So the first idea is something called non time, you know, it's very uncomfortable at first, especially if you're a type A personality because you're like doo doo doo. But non time is where you give yourself like fire to ask you to do nothing or think about nothing for 15 minutes, I would say that would really be a hard challenge for most of us. And in fact, if I asked you not to think about anything at all.

The first thing you're gonna think about, like the one thing I tell you not to think about right, if I say, please don't think about pink elephants, chances are, you're only the thing about pink elephants, but non time is something that actually very successful people do. A time or space you give yourself that is not with the demands of the world, it's not with all the noise of the world. You give yourself a task to do nothing.

So Albert Einstein obviously we all know about Albert Einstein how successful he was, but his non time was sailing and some of his greatest ideas came as he said, feeling the wind on his face being on a sailboat, right? Steve Jobs, we know how innovative he was, but he was also known to be a procrastinator and somebody who daydreamed a lot.

But in his day dreaming and his doodling, he found a great balance between finding work and play right in technology. My non time is exercise and for some that might not be might sound really tragic, but I work out two hours a day, six days a week. But in that time of not thinking and using my body, most of my creative thoughts and ideas actually come to me and I have to run to my phone after the workout and write them all down.

So non time is actually a way that you find something that you enjoy doing, that you're not giving yourself a task or a goal or, you know, something specific to do. And scientists have found and proven they've done numerous tests with different groups on giving them something to do and then nothing to do and then to see who was more creative and it's always those who were in a space of non time.

Laura: Interesting. Okay, so then how do we find the non time for ourselves? You know, I know that, you know, anybody who is a runner, I most likely identified with the exercise piece that you just said, I know that, you know, my dad was a runner that was his non time all the time. He had his best ideas, all of those things when he was running.

But how do we find that especially I don't know about you, but for many of the families that I work with as you transition into parenthood, you, it seems like you lose a lot of time for yourself and you almost lose the parts of yourself that did those non time activities. So like one for me was when I was before I was a parent,I would spend time just doing art for myself with no purpose and I just don't make as much time for that now as a parent. So how can we figure out and reconnect to that to our old selves and find non time as busy parents.

Monica: Yeah, it's interesting. I'm also a marathon runner and for sure that's, you know, people like I do it, I would get lost in that space. I think parents make that mistake though. They think that, You know, now I'm taking care of a child or four children are so clearly you do have less time in the day to do things that feed you.

But you know, that's the trap because, you know, my oldest is 22, my youngest is eight and the ways that they need you changes so much through time. And if you devote all of your energy and all of your purpose, just just raising children as that relationship changes, it can be really hard for you to find yourself. Then I really encourage you to go back to your art for sure. I think we have to be flexible about how we approach it.

So if, for instance, I call it like a modest spark, let's say that there's something you enjoy doing, but it's not like your ultimate end all be all but you enjoy doing it. So before I started public speaking, I used to, and I still do, I enjoy baking very much. Baking was something I could do at 11 o'clock at night or nine o'clock at night when the kids were sleeping and as I was creating things with my hands again, doing something. I was thinking about lectures, ideas, concepts, books and I was formulating them in my mind.

So I think that, you know, even if you need to do it at a weird hour or you know, or you need to wake up a little bit earlier, you need to ask your partner to fill in this time or maybe the kids have pizza for dinner and they don't have all their food groups in that one night, you know, that's okay, but just to find that and create that space because it will allow you actually even to be a better parent, you know, for so busy on our children and and focused on making them happy and being the perfect parent and we're running them from karate class and the other one has ballet class and the other one has soccer practice and you're yelling in them in the car because they didn't eat healthy at the birthday party and you want to, you know, you want this balanced kind of life and really your goal is to be a great parent.

But you're not actually giving yourself that non time, how are you going to think differently about approaching parenting, you know, while trying to do all these great things for them, you know, are they gonna remember what you did or how you made them feel?

So I think giving ourselves that space just to be, there's no reason not to, you know, I often say to people because that's a question I get a lot like how do I have time to focus on my growth or change my consciousness or whatever we find that's important to us that we want to work on, but we just don't have the time. If you stop and ask yourself, how many times did I think a negative thought today or did I break myself about not being good enough in this or that area? Or I spoke bad about somebody like how much of our time and energy goes towards something negative. You know, if we actually cut that out of our lives, I guarantee you'll have time for non time.

Laura: Yeah. So what is the relationship then between non time and being kind of unbusying yourself? How are they related?

Monica: So non time you're being busy with something, but you're not being distracted I think right? It's very much something that you enjoy doing, like vigorous exercise or you're like coloring or like it's something that you're actually participating in. It's giving you the space just to absorb your surroundings that you want, right? Sitting by a window and looking out at the trees are looking in nature. It's that space.

Unbusy means you stop participating in things that just don't serve you and that's a different thing, you know? And so I think that, you know, often people ask another question about anti goals, which is the opposite of having goals, right?

And I like where this conversation is going because it's like they seem so similar and they seem that they contradict each other at the same time, anti goals or when you write down things you don't love doing and you just stop doing them. So for instance, if you hate having board meetings and you don't feel that they're effective, then you just stop doing it.

It's like and by doing that, you're going to find a solution in how to spend more time with the things that you love because you've removed so much of your energy and participating in things that you just don't enjoy. Like if I were to ask you, you know, solve hunger in India, right? That's a big question. But if I said to you, why don't we look at what's not working in India in terms of poverty and starvation and let's stop doing those things, then the solution will be a lot clearer.

Laura: Sometimes I channel I feel like my listeners as they're listening to these things and the question that's popping up in my brain, I can't just stop doing laundry, you know, like the laundry has to get done.

Although in my relationship in my house, I at one point I did just stop doing it and it got done by my partner who is wonderful and great, but like there's a certain level, like there are things I do have to get done, you know, as parents, so how can we approach them in a way that is more conscious and intentional and fulfilling?

Monica: Absolutely. There are some things that we have to do. I do find though, that we, we have to check ourselves that we're coming from a controlling place for this idea that we have to be a perfect parent. That pressure that we put on ourselves means laundry has to be done every Monday Wednesday Friday has to be folded, put it back in place organized.

If somebody comes over, they're gonna see how neat my houses and I have everything under control. I don't think we have to do all the things we say to ourselves that we need to do. You know, kids can use a towel more than twice, you know, uh, they can make their beds to the best of their ability. It's okay if they get into a bed that maybe isn't made, if it doesn't bother me, if it bothers them enough, they're going to learn how to start making it right?

It requires more effort in a way because you have to be disciplined. You have to kind of repeat yourself. But that effort that you put into the beginning actual payoff. So I think a way to get around this, it's another tool, it's called create your to be list before your to do list, but to do list is one that is long. It's usually things again like laundry is on there or pick up vacuum cleaner bags or, you know, a bunch of to do’s and again we do need to do some of those things.

But do we have to do them when we think we have to do them and that, you know, detail of every, you know, these schedules that are so regimented. So if you create your to be list first, right? Let's say on your to be list was to write a children's book. And so if that was important to you, then on your to-do list would be, you know, take an hour a week, let's say, if you're really, really busy with kids and schedules in a lot for one hour a week to writing. Surely you can find an hour, right?

Laura: Can I just ask a question just to clarify? So is the to be list kind of your goals for who you want to be?

Monica: Yes, exactly. And based on who you want to become, you create your to-do list. Okay, so again, you will have the other things on there. But when you have that list combined with your to be list, right, then all of a sudden it becomes really apparent like is this really important or maybe I won't do it this week.

Or like let's say, you have to prepare food and you want to find a few extra hours in the week. Maybe you do your fruit prep on Sunday. You make your menu, you do your shopping, you already cut all the vegetables, you put them in mason jars and you set all that up. So Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, you've now gained a half hour for an hour in that day because you're not prepping on those days, you're just cooking, but you've now you can put that to something else that's really important to you. So I think a lot of it is just shifting your perspective.

Laura: Yeah. And and I really do, I feel like we've kind of been screwing around this a little bit, but it seems like a big piece of this is letting go of the expectations that you hope for yourself or the expectations that maybe you've borrowed from society and culture and the big piece of this is letting go of those things and instead intentionally choosing what matters most to you.

Monica: 100%. You know, my husband and I, as you mentioned, we have a podcast, it's called spiritually hungry and we did an episode parenting and, you know, there are many doctors, I can't remember the one specific one way we had quoted right now, but saying this idea that you know, you just want to be a good enough parent.

Because if you're a good enough parent, right? It means that you of course you care and you're trying to do your best, but you're also well aware that your children will have their own process. They're going to have their own journey in life and it's not our job to control that process for them and by doing that, you really kind of let yourself off the hook a bit.

Laura: Yeah, the good enough parent is absolutely so important. It's from Winnicott, the researcher from the 50s who coined this term. And it's so, so important to embrace that idea of being good enough.

Monica: Again, I think a lot of ideas like letting go, that could be so field, so difficult to master first. If you just shift your consciousness right, then everything will follow. You have to just decide that that really is ok to be a good enough parent and from there, you're okay. If that's really what I think, then that means I'm going to make this other decision on this day. I'm going to let go and that area on that day.

Laura: Yeah. And how do you do that? Like how do you just decide? I think that lots of people, parents and non parents struggle with that aspect of it, of can you just decide? And if limiting beliefs linger in there, what do you do with them? Why?

Monica: I think expanding your consciousness, it's like a muscle, you have to work, right? It's not just something you do want something you choose every single day. I think that if you wake up in the morning and you really have this conversation with yourself, right? I want to be a conscious person that really directs my day, the way that I wanted to go, the way that I intended to, the way that I'm enjoying it and then I'm driving purpose and meaning, right?

So if that's how you start your day and that means when things unfold in the day and they don't go out the way that you want or things didn't happen the way that you want, you're able to stop and say okay, it's not what I expected, but how can I make this work for me? Once you start to do that right, you start to change the way that you look at life, the life happens through you, not to you, you've become part of solutions, everything is purposeful, even the things that are not what you had intended or wanted.

So you know, and if you find it really hard to do that, then you're gonna, those negative belief systems that we created long ago will come up. You have to listen to them and then you have to challenge them. It doesn't have to be that hard. I mean the simplistic answer is you know, how do you let go of a piece of hot coal in your hand. I mean simply you let it go, you drop it, how do you let go of heavy baggage, you've been caring come home from the airport, you just drop it and let it go right, simply we understand that.

So if the decision is I don't want to be such an angry parent anymore or I don't want to be such an upset spouse or I want to, you know, then you have to say, okay if I don't want to be those negative things anymore, then how will I change my experience in those roles? That's the choice you make right?

Laura: What do I need to let go in order to step into who I want to be,?

Monica: Right. So if you're fighting with your partner all the time because they don't acknowledge you, why is it important for them to acknowledge you? And you have to be able to to be honest with yourself about what the challenge is. And then ask yourself the question why do you need that outcome by asking yourself those two questions with an answer yourself with honesty, then you'll have the information in front of you and from that space you can choose something else, but you really need to be able to put that lay it out in front of you to be able then to say okay. Like that's why I named my book Fears Is Not An Option.

When fear is no longer an option, you need to look for other options. It's the same thing here. If being that whatever it is right that is upsetting you is no longer an option for you in your life that you don't want that. We're gonna look for different options.

Laura: Yeah. And I almost like would feel really good to me to, to frame this as a, like almost like from a place of curiosity, like if fear was no longer an option, what would you be? You know, if being defensive with your partner in the midst of a disagreement was no longer an option for you, what would you choose?

Like that curiosity piece feels really good and I really appreciate the reminder that it's an active practice that it's a muscle you have to exercise, that it's not a set it and forget it kind of one and done, you look at it once you're like open up there it is and then you move forward. I think that's what people are hoping it will be and it's not, it's a conscious active choosing each and every day.

Monica: We become more part of a quick fix society. You know, you don't like your butt you know, there's a solution for that, you know, like your whatever, you know, we can, we can fix that too and it's just like in a heartbeat, real joy fulfillment that comes from everyday choosing that, you know, and we understand this when it comes to physical activity, you'll get really fit, you work out and then you stop working out and you eat like differently well your body is going to change also, that's just the way that it is.

So I think having help with the understanding that you really need to participate in your life. I think that people forget that, you know, while you still care about it, by the way, so after people like, oh, you know, I'm going to do this first, it's the kids or the priority or you know, I'm just gonna keep doing these things, I don't love it, but I know like five years from now, I don't have to do it, it doesn't work like that, you don't know where you're gonna be in five years, right? So you have to really say, okay, I care enough about me and because they care about me, I'm gonna do something today to change things that I'm not happy about.

Laura: Yeah, I always say like our lives are not waiting rooms we’re in them now, we're living our lives now, we have to be actively participating and choosing our lives. And you know, I think that oftentimes as parents, we do feel like we don't have a lot of choice that we don't have a lot of power. We are at the whims and mercy of our kids' developmental stages and what's going on in the world and it can feel quite empowering to recognize where you do have the ability to choose.

Monica: I mean, honestly, I can understand why people are terrified if they think in that way, like, just hearing you say that I'm like, my heart's beating because that for me, sounds like suffering. I mean, I would never want to live life like that. I think, you know, as far as your Children's development and being part of that at every stage, there needs to be room to allow something greater in. I believe in God, I believe in something far greater than us.

So I think it's about having certainty in the process of life and stop trying to control it and I'm you know, I was very much a control freak, I was very much a perfectionist and I think that's why I've gone the extreme the other way and really embracing change because I was miserable in another version of myself then life was not working for me, you know?

So I started to really challenge the things, you know, exactly like what I shared a little bit earlier in the show and also, you know, with children, you want to raise them I think to be able to think for themselves, So if you're controlling every stage you're basically teaching them to follow authority. To follow other people's beliefs and opinions, to be a follower and guess what, when they enter high school and you're not the voice in their head anymore, you're not the strongest influence then they will follow their peers that are now greater influences over them.

Laura: None of us want that. We want people, grown-ups. We want to raise people who when they're grown up and they yeah, they're independent, they know what they want. They know how to advocate for themselves, you know, they know how to stand up for themselves, they follow their hearts, they define their own success, this is what we want for our kids and it's so important to remember that like that starts at birth, like that starts now.

Monica: You know my kids ask me for advice or they share a problem with me, I don't try to fix it, what I do is I say to them, what do you think your options are? You know, what do you think you should do about that or you know, if you did x, y and z, how do you think the outcome would be, you know, to really get them to and dive the way that was a restriction on my part when I first started learning how to do that over a decade ago or more. Now, it's just the way we speak, but I would really encourage people first of all, that needs to be the voice you have with yourself, right? And when you do that then you can offer that to your children.

Laura: I so agree. It always starts with us always Yeah, and we want to be modeling this for our kids too. I think that that's something that's really powerful to remember in this conversation of kind of unbusying our life, like we are an advertisement for adulthood for our kids, you know, and we have to be really conscious of that of what we are modeling for them.

Monica: 100%.

Laura: Well, Monica, thank you so much for this conversation, it was really fun to talk about this kind of broad topic. I feel like we win a lot of different places, but it all connected. It was really a great conversation. Thank you.

Monica: Thank you.

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just to remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this!

December 21, 2021

Episode 96: Understanding Your Child's Personality for Ease in Parenting With Sandra Etherington

December 21, 2021/ Laura Froyen

A key part of being a conscious, attuned parent is deeply understanding your UNIQUE child and adjusting your approach in a way that works for THEM. This is where understanding more about your child's temperament and personality can be SUPER helpful! And for that reason, I am bringing in one of my friends and colleagues, Sandra Etherington. She is a mom of two beautiful kids and is the owner of Family Personalities and the co-host of the Family Personalities Podcast, a fun and sometimes cheesy podcast, that uses personality type to help change the way you see your family. Sandra uses her experience and training in Myers-Briggs personality type, to work one on one with families, helping them parent more effectively and compassionately based on their children's unique wiring and needs.

I hope that through this episode we can better understand our children's needs and find ease in parenting.

Here is a summary of our conversation:

Introverted Kids vs Extraverted Kids and Their Differing Needs
Tips to support The Differing Needs of Introverted and Extroverted Kids
Using Personality Type to Understand How Your Child Learns
Understanding Your Child’s Behavior through the Lens of Personality

To get more support, follow Sandra on Instagram @familypersonalities and visit her website www.familypersonalities.com.

And if you are interested to know your child’s personality, enroll to her online course:

Find Your Child's Myers-Briggs Personality Type

TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic overwhelm. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Laura: Hello, everybody. This is Dr. Laura Froyen and we're back with another episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast. And today we're gonna be talking about personality types with a personality type practitioner, Sandra Etherington.

This is her wheelhouse. This is her gift that she brings to the world and she's going to help us understand how our personality type of parents and kids personality types like how understanding those things can help us have more flow and ease and joy in our relationships and in our home. So, Sandra, thank you so much for being here with us. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Sandra: Sure, I'm so grateful to be here. This is my favorite thing to talk about in the whole world. So I first discovered Myers Briggs type when I was in the corporate world. They used it a lot in the corporate world to deal with teamwork and working better as a team and more smoothly as a team. And when I discovered my type, which is INFJ. So the Myers Briggs types are denoted by four letters, and they each stand for something, and INFJ stands for introversion, intuition, feeling and judging.

And when I discovered my type, I remember reading the description on the internet. Some random site that I found and like, kind of tearing up a little bit. I was like, oh my gosh, I think that this internet site description understands me better than anyone has understood me my entire life. Maybe even better than I actually, definitely better than I even understood myself at the time.

Laura: Sandra I'm an INFJ too and I felt the same way. I felt so seen and heard when I found out my type. Yeah, and INFJ is a very rare type. So I think a lot of us have that experience when we discover it because not everyone is like, as most people are not like us. And so to hear someone kind of validate is the right word. But just kind of like, see you as a really amazing experience.

And I was like, I was wondering how does this, like, seemingly choice, like, four choices of letters get at the core of who I am? And obviously it doesn't get at everything. It doesn't know your life experiences, how you were brought up, all that sort of thing. But how does that understand me?

And so I was just so fascinated that I just kind of dove in and learned everything I could about Myers Briggs. And it was really just a hobby for a long time. And then fast forward I had kids. I decided to stay home with them and I just started wondering because I used Myers Briggs in all facets of my life from understanding my relationships with people.

I would type everyone around me, and I just started wondering, Wait, do my kids have a Myers Briggs type? And what does that say about them? And can I use that in my parenting? And I became just personally interested in it and began to research it and read about it. And I would tell people about it, you know, like, oh my son is, have you heard of Myers Briggs? My son’s an INTJ and that means yada, yada, yada. And so I try to approach things like this with them and they'd be like, what? Can you do that with my kids?

Laura: Right. It's like a secret code almost. Understanding them on this deeper level. Okay, let's rewind just a little bit, because I know not everybody listening has heard of the Myers Briggs, which is the personality assessment, or even like personality typing in general. Can you tell us a little bit about, what is personality typing specifically the Myers Briggs and just give us a little bit of an intro?

Sandra: Yeah, so Myers Briggs, the surface of level of it and how you kind of type is there are four different pairs of opposites. And so the first one is: do you prefer introversion or do you prefer extroversion? And that's really the easiest entry point into Myers Briggs, because we all have some idea of what introversion is and extroversion is.

And the important thing to know with Myers Briggs is that it's not absolute, right? Like I am not only introverted, I am not only extroverted, we are human, we are dynamic. We have the ability to do everything. But there's one that we have a natural preference for, a natural wiring for, and there's even research being done now.

I recently had Dario Nardi on my podcast, who has done work in the neuroscience world doing EEG scans of people's brains. And it's finding that, yes, we actually have a favored pathway through the brain that shows introversion or extroversion.

So the idea is you have a preference for one or the other. You have one way that's kind of more automatic, more comfortable. It fills your bucket. And then when you're used, trying to use the opposite, it's just more exhausting, more frustrating, maybe a little more awkward to use.

Laura: Almost like handedness.

Sandra: Exactly. Yeah, like you can compare it really well to being right handed or left handed.

Laura: Cool. Okay. And so the first two on the Myers Briggs end or the first pair is introversion and extroversion. What are the other ones?

Sandra: So the second pair is something called sensing or intuition, which is an S. And then they use N for intuition since the I was already used for introversion. And that has to do with how you take in information from the world around you.

So people who prefer some saying they tend to take in more concrete detail information, and people who are intuitive tend to take in more big picture type information from the world around them. And again, it's the same thing as introversion extroversion. We can do both, but we just have a natural preference and natural leaning towards one or the other when that's more comfortable, one that's more natural, one that's more automatic.

Laura: This is the one for me that all of my letters, you know, feel right to me. But this one was the most helpful in helping me understand, like how I move through the world. How sometimes I would know things are not like, you know, understand things and know things about people that they never said out loud that there was no tangible evidence for. Like it was very validating to have, like to know that that's a thing, you know?

Sandra: Yeah. Yeah, Some people make nicknames for the different processes, and so if you're an intuitive and a judger like you and I are as INFJs, it's a process that's called introverted intuition. But the nickname that Dario Nardi, who I already mentioned, uses for is keen for seeing. And so it's just this ability to have this insight into the future and know, and if you combine it with your feeling, you can know, like what people around you are feeling or needing. It feels like magic sometimes, but it's not.

Laura: I know, but it does because I mean, it's what made me such a good therapist. Like it made me a very good therapist. It was also incredibly exhausting. Yes, yeah. Okay, keep going. Keep going. This is so good.

Sandra: So then the next letter pairing is thinking and feeling, which is the T or the F and Myers Briggs. And a lot of people get caught up in the name labels for this one. Like thinking sounds like I think and, you know, feeling sounds like I have feelings and I'm emotional, but it's really not about that.

Thinking or feeling has to do with how you make decisions. So every little decision you make throughout the day, are you thinkers prefer to step outside of the situation emotionally or values wise leave that all that stuff confuses and these up the waters and making decisions, and they prefer just to look at the objective, logical data around what they're trying to do.

Whereas feelers like to step into a situation emotionally considering their values and feelings and other people's values and feelings around them when they're making the decision. And again, we can all do both of these things and generally to be a healthy, functioning human being with relationships with other people, as well as making smart choices in our life. We have to do both, but there's just a natural leaning one way or the other.

The last one is judging or perceiving, which is the J or the P. And this one has to do with how you orient yourself to your outer world. And so this one's a little more confusing to understand and it's also the most complicated one in Myers Briggs, because it actually affects how you use your other functions.

But it is basically, people prefer judging, prefer to put their outer world in order using like planning structure organization. Whereas people prefer perceiving, they tend to take life more as it comes, and there'll be a little more open, flexible and spontaneous.

Laura: Cool. Okay, and so I feel like I'm having a really good understanding of how knowing this about yourself can really help you understand struggles in your life, struggles in different relationships are different things you need to be able to do. What are some of the ways that you see it coming out for parents? Like where it's really helpful to know this about yourself in parenting?

Sandra: Yeah. For one, it can really help us self care. Even just knowing I prefer introversion helps me know like, oh, this is why I'm getting so angry at my children because I've been having to interact with them nonstop all day and I just need some time to myself, some quiet time to myself. Something as basic as that.

Or this is why my husband and I are arguing about, you know, what to do for the family vacation, because he's completely stepping out of things emotionally, whereas I'm stepping in and thinking about, what is Aunt Karen going to feel about our vacation plans and trying to please everyone else. Even just those little things and then with your kids? This is where, like this work really calls to me, is understanding where our kids are coming from and how they're seeing the world.

Because I don't know how you, you know, have your background in psychology and so maybe you came into parenting with a different idea than I did. But when I came into parenting, I just thought I was going to get little mini versions of me and that I would just parent them the way that I wish I had been parented and that would be the perfect way to parent them. And turns out my kids are nothing like me.

Laura: You know, it's funny. There's that quote that says like, be the parent you needed as a child and I always like to disagree with that. Liike, no, you like, you can be the parent you needed as a child to your own inner child, but you need to parent the kids that are in front of you. They might need something completely different than what you needed as a child, you know?

Sandra: Yeah, exactly. And I learned that lesson really hard with my son who just works very differently from me. And to be able to understand that and really cater the way that I'm communicating with him, and catering what I'm providing him based on what I know about him personality type wise is really a gift that I found and that I want to bring to other people as well.

Laura: Okay, so I have two directions my questions can go right now. I'm going to say them and you get to choose which way we go and hopefully

Sandra: It's like a choose your own adventure.

Laura: I know, right? That's what I was thinking in my own head too. Oh man, those books are so good, right? Okay, so on the one hand, I'm thinking like okay, so then how do we figure out what types our kids are so that we can start figuring out where the mismatches are and how to communicate with them better.

But then I'm also thinking about, so I know there's lots of other ways to conceptualize personality types like there's the Enneagram, there's Human Design, there's a bunch of other ones, and I feel kind of curious about, like how the Myers Briggs relates to some of those. Is it just that you find the one that speaks to you most and stick with it like, what do you think about the other, like kind of, avenues of personality typing?

Sandra: Let me answer the other personality type models 1 first, because I'm sure a lot of listeners have heard of other ones and Enneagram is so popular right now. So just to give context as to what Myers Briggs is versus those and then we can circle back around to.

So basically all the personality type models are just looking at different things. And so, like, we're very complicated as people. We do have more to us than those four Myers Briggs dichotomies, right? And so the Enneagram, so Myers Briggs measures those four things that we already talked about.

The Enneagram really is about kind of a defense mechanism that you have in place from early childhood to help you move through the world. And so, like, I'm a type 1 on the Enneagram, which is the perfectionist reformer. And my defense mechanism is to be good so that I can be beyond reproach and I can be lovable, and I can be likable. And so each of the types, I know right, every time I read about that

Laura: It makes me want to just hug your inner child and be like you are good enough.

Sandra: Every time I read about that core like defense mechanism that comes from childhood on the Enneagram, I just want to hug someone. I'm like, oh my God. And so that layers on top of your Myers Briggs personality type. So they're measuring completely separate things. There are some like correlations, you know, like INFjs, for example, like you and I tend to be Type 4s, which is like Type 4s are like the individualist who are very tight up in the emotional experience of things or Type 2s, which is like the helper work they've, in order to feel love, they need to give to other people.

So you have, like, some tendencies that certain Myers Briggs type will might be more likely to be certain Enneagram types, but it's definitely not a rule.

Laura: Okay, so there's definitely room for understanding both in about ourselves and in about our children.

Sandra: And they work together so well, but it's too complicated to kind of put it all together for intro so I

Laura: Are these things that you discussed on your podcast? Because I know you have a podcast on this topic.

Sandra: Yeah, we do. I have a few episodes on Enneagram, but it's mostly Myers Briggs centric, but both my co host and I love Enneagram so we bring it up just from time to time.

Laura: Why don't you, like, just tell us that a lot of the name of your podcast that people can go and find you and binge listen.

Sandra: It's called Family Personalities. I'm about 33 episodes and as of today. So if you've got a lot of time on your hands, you can definitely still binge it.

Laura: Awesome. Okay, so now the question of how do we figure out our kids' type so that we can meet them where they are and figure out kind of why maybe we're having some some conflicts or tensions.

Sandra: Yeah, it's, so depending on the age of the child, if they're kind of younger than seven, say, it's just going to be based on your observed behaviors of them because they're not old enough to really participate in that conversation yet. And I always say that if they're that young, we call it a best guess type, which means we're just based on their behaviors. We think that they tend in this certain direction and then we can tailor our parenting to that.

As they get older, they can participate in the process. So if your child is a second grade reading level or above, about 7 to, say, 12 or 13 then I do kind of a combined approach where I ask the child questions and do kind of an assessment with them and then the parents’ observable behaviors. And then we kind of arrive at a type based on that, and then once 13, 14, they own the process themselves.

And the best way is to really understand those two dichotomies to understand what is introversion? What is extroversion? What does that look like in a kid? And actually, if people are interested, eventually we'll have downloads for each of the four pairs. But right now I only have introversion-extroversion, but if you go to familypersonalities.com/downloads, there's a free download that will tell you, you know, just very briefly how you can determine if your child is, prefers introversion or extroversion.

And there's just like a list of observed traits. So, for example, wait time. If you ask a child a question, do they sit and ponder before they answer or they talking as they're thinking and like that is their thinking process? So wait time is really common in kids with introversion that they just need to process before they speak or process before they act.

Like I know with my own introverted children, when they take them to activities like gymnastics or whatever, especially if it's new, but even if it's not new, they just. If you arrive late, that can be really tough for them to just jump right in. They need some time to observe and think and see what's going on before they can pull themselves out into the outer world and extrovert themselves. Whereas extroverts are more just likely to jump into something or, you know, speak before thinking.

Laura: Yeah, you know, it's funny. I definitely have one who is very introverted. I mean, she was slow to warm, even as a baby, you know. My other one is much more outgoing and gregarious. But there's moments of time, too, though where she is reserved and you know and holds back and she's and she's a homebody too. Like, so she doesn't like to go. She wants to stay home with us, you know? It's so hard. I can't

Sandra: Yeah, and there's a lot of factors that go into it. Like right, like, for INFJs like us, we have, we're introverts overall, but that feeling process when you combine feeling with judging, we really like connecting with people. That's a really important part of our lives and so a lot of times we can come off as extroverted because of that process.

So it's really important to look at the personality as a whole and, like some kids if they're extroverted but they're sensing they may be wary to jump into things because, like I had a client, for example, who was having a difficult time choosing introversion or extroversion because her child was really shy when it came to certain things and like when she would go to this child care that had mostly older kids at it, she was shy.

But when she would go to some other group, she had no problem. And it with sensing kids, they tend to have sort of a hierarchy in their mind of, you know. Like older kids,they're very much about society in the way that structure is held up, and so they don't have as much confidence with people that are older or more experienced than them, like they feel like they need to take a back seat to that.

And so she was shy in those situations, even though she was an extrovert overall with think out loud and do everything else that an extra child does. So it really like all the pieces kind of work together, and it's more complicated than just the either or dynamic. But the either or dynamic is the place that you start.

Laura: Okay. And so then the like, maybe once you have a sense of your own type and your child's type then how do you start using that in your parenting?

Sandra: Yeah, and I should mention that this is what I do, by the way, is I type kids and I type families. And so if you're interested in working with me and understanding your child's type or your own type, just head to my website familypersonalities.com, and you can click on services and then I've got everything there.

Laura: It sounds intimidating to me to imagine trying to type my own kids and the perfectionist in me would feel really nervous about getting it wrong. And so I do kind of, you know, I like that you call it your best guess. You know when they're little to before they're old enough to really start participating in that process.

Okay, so then how does this filter down into the communication we have with our kids or the approach we take with our kids?

Sandra: My favorite one to talk about, let's go into thinking versus feeling. This is my favorite one to talk about because I feel like there's the most judgment from one side or the other. Like feelers feel like thinkers are doing it wrong, and thinkers feel like feelers are doing it wrong, right? And I think that we can tend to place this judgment on our kids, too. And maybe I'm just projecting here.

But I know with my son, who prefers thinking, he can come off as blunt. He can come off as like he's not considering other people's emotions, and I've noticed a tendency in feeling parents to sometimes label their thinking child is mean, or maybe label their actions as mean, which can sometimes lead to, you know, I mean, kids are going to internalize that, even if they don't seem emotionally a sentence sensitive. So we want to be, we want to be careful about that.

And so it's really understanding that they are just approaching their decisions in a different way and that they are naturally wired to do this and that it's actually hard for them like it's a stretch. It's like instead of using their right hand, they have to use their left hand when they have to consider the emotions of others. And that doesn't mean it's an excuse for your kid to go around being an ahole, but at least having the empathy to understand that this is actually more difficult for them than it is for me.

And how do I approach that? And so, with thinkers, it depends. Are they thinking judger or are they thinking feeler? But with the thinking judgers, like my kid, for example, they’re really rules based. So they really understand, like rules, especially if they can understand the reason behind the rules. They will follow the rules.

And so when I have an issue with my son, like, for example, like a year ago, my son was seven, my daughter was four and they were coloring together, and my daughter said, hey, do you like my coloring? Do you like my drawing? And my son said, uh, no, I don't like red, so I don't like it or whatever. And then she started crying.

And you know, my immediate reaction is like, why would you do that? That's mean, you know, but, you know, holding that aside, okay, he's coming at it from a just like, what are the object, what's the objective logic here? I don't like red. Therefore, I don't like the coloring right? And it's a stretch for him to have to think about how someone is going to take what he's saying.

And so I had to break it down logically and say, hey, do you understand why that made your sister cry? And he's like, no. When she hears that someone doesn't like her drawing, it makes her feel like she's bad at drawing. And then that makes her feel bad about herself. Do you know what that feels like? And he's like, yeah, I know what that feels like, And then I can, and then once he understands that, then I can take it to a rule.

Okay, so when someone asks you if you like their thing, you don't tell them you don't like it. You know, you tell them what you do like about it, and then you can give your criticism afterward if you have something.

From that point forward, he just got it. Once he was able to put it into a logical, if this happens then do this rule and understand why he does that, he got it. So there's just like, little tips and tricks you can get from understanding some of their preferences.

Laura: Absolutely. And I love how the way you're framing this really lines up with a kind of a guiding principle here that kids do well when they can. And that if they're not doing well, it's not because they're jerks or bad kids, it's because something's getting in the way of them being able to meet our expectations. I love this. So helpful.

Okay, so now I'm thinking about two questions. One is like, so this is helpful. And like, the more we understand our kids, the more we can meet them where they are and tailor our approach to them. I think that that is so important. What you mentioned in kind of our prep to that, there's a way to kind of in understanding our kids personalities, we can kind of find their superpower. I feel curious about that. I was hoping you might touch on it a little bit for us.

Sandra: Yeah, this is another thing I'm passionate about, because if anyone listening is in the Myers Briggs, you can find a lot of like type patriotism where people are like I'm an INFJ, that's the most superior type ever and like everyone else, is doing it wrong.

Laura: There's a lot of pride in those types sometimes.

Sandra: Yes, which is the first step, honestly, is finding out that my type is actually really cool because all the types are really cool. But then, if you sort of internalize it as mine is really cool, to the exception of all the others, that's where I feel like people get steered wrong with it. And so I really like to point out what is the superpowers that each type has so that you can see those in your kid and understand that they're not doing it wrong because they're doing it differently from you. They have something else to add to the world because of the fact that they're wired differently. And how can we look at that and hone that instead of trying to turn them into something they're not?

Laura: Oh my gosh. I think this is such a powerful message. You know, growing up as an intensely sensitive and feeling, an empathetic kid, I got the message from parents and teachers just all through that I was too much, too sensitive that I needed to relax. You know, it was all of these messages that the way that I was the way that I was wired made me hard to be around, like, made me difficult.

You know, all of those things, all of those messages. And as I moved into my professional career and became a therapist, I found that those exact things that I always got the message that we're not good at, you know, that made me not good enough. That those exact things were my superpower, that they were the very thing that helped me connect to people almost instantly help them feel seen and heard.

And I just you know, it's so beautiful. The work that you're doing, helping parents see that in all of their kids that each kid, no matter their struggles and things can, like, there's aspects of each type that probably makes them hard to be around too.

Sandra: It's hard to parent

Laura: It’s hard to parent, right, you know, but focusing in on the unique gifts that each child brings to a family. I think it's just a beautiful message.

Sandra: You said that, perfect. I received a lot of the same messaging growing up, and I think on the other side, kids who aren't as naturally sensitive can receive the messaging that especially girls. If you have a thinking girl, they can receive the message that they're too blunt, that they're not kind enough, that they're bossy, that they're whatever all sorts of words that get attached. And so really being able to understand, why is my kid being perceived this way? Why am I perceiving them that way? And it, can I look at it in a different way?

Laura: Yeah, it's becoming aware of the lenses that we have over our eyes as we view our kids is so important. Thank you for that. Okay. And so then I do want to just touch on a little bit of the like, how we can use knowing our type for our benefit as a parent? So one of the things that we talked about a lot here at The Balanced Parent is taking good care of ourselves.

And you mentioned before that can help with self-care. Can you help me understand a little bit more? I mean, as an introvert, I know and a big feeler. I know that I need time where no one is talking to me where I don't have to hold space for anybody else's feelings, but my own that I need that for a reset. I'm wondering for other folks for other types, like how they can use their type to identify specific, you know, self-care that they might need.

Sandra: Yeah, there's all sorts of things that different types can do, and understanding where your preference lies, that's where you fill up your bucket. And, yes, we all have to stretch the other side, especially as parents like, no matter what your type you've had to stretch, I guarantee it to your opposite preference. And in some ways, like I would say, some types have to stretch more than others. Like I would say, intuitive parents probably have to stretch way more to the sensing side than vice versa. And that can just be very, very exhausting.

And so understanding what fills your bucket and maybe you've already discovered some of that on your own, but using type, you can, it can give you ideas of other ways of understanding how other people of your type fill their bucket can sometimes help. Like I know I have a couple of ISFP parents, so that's introversion, sensing, feeling, and perceiving who have found getting creative in a hands-on physical way.

So, like sketching or calligraphy is one of my ISFP parent friends will just like at the end of the day, she'll just, like, tune out everyone else, go into a quiet room and watch like calligraphy videos and practice her calligraphy and just SPs really are getting in their bodies. It was really great, and especially when they combined with that F then you kind of have that creative like beauty type focus.

Laura: You know, I didn't know that other people watched calligraphy videos. I do that. I didn't know that that was a thing, though. Like, yeah, we watch calligraphy videos. It's so beautiful and soothing.

Sandra: Yeah, and that function that it's called extroverted sensing. That function, that ISFP is used. INFJ is actually use that too. It's our most unconscious process but sometimes that can be a place of fun and stretch and play to go to for us, too, but we certainly don't want to do that as much as ISFPs do.

Laura: Interesting. Okay. Do you have other examples of, like, self care options that are depending on types like I do? When I think about self-care, most of it is alone. And that's my strong introversion. Like what, like what's the flip side of that? If you are an extrovert like you know, what does that look like? Does that mean like hanging out with friends, like, what does that mean?

Sandra: Yeah, so I would say definitely for EFJs, doesn't matter NRS, but if you're an E and F and a J, probably hanging out with people is what you're going to need, like there's very much a connection aspect. Your main drive is to connect with other people. And so just being able to get out and connect with someone where there's not conflict, either, where there's like a creating rapport with one another is a really great self-care.

Laura: Cool. Yeah, okay. And so just popped in my head. What do we do when we got introverted parents and extroverted kids or extroverted parents and introverted kids? I'm so sorry. I'm kidding. There's nothing we can do.

Sandra: Our whole family is introverts. And I'm like, thankful for that every day. I have an extroverted stepdaughter who doesn't live with us. She comes to visit from time to time, and I just remember when my kids were like little baby toddlers and she would come to visit and we would have, I would read all these plans to entertain her, right?

I'd be like, she's only here for a week. So on Monday, we're going to the beach. On Tuesday, we're going to the Children's Museum or whatever it is. And, but I had a baby and a toddler, and I was just kind of like in over my head. And so we would go to the beach and we get home around two. You know, like we went, we went at 10, we get home around two, and that would be like okay, that was like I was like, that's more than we do in a month and we just did in a day.

So now we're just going to sit around and she'd be like, What are we doing next? Like, Are you kidding me? A child? Like she just needed interaction and something to do all the time. And so that's hard. And a lot of what I will tell parents who have a big mismatch in type in their family, which a lot of families do. It's not uncommon at all, is outsource. Like you know what I mean. Like if you have a really extroverted child, make sure there's other people who can interact with them. Make sure that they have lots of playdates. It's so hard right now.

Laura: I think this whole time period of must be so hard on extroverted folks. As an introvert and like in a family of mostly introverts, like we're fine, like, not much has changed. We pretty much just hang out by ourselves anyway. For extroverts. I've been really feeling for them.

Sandra: Yeah, especially our EFJs. I think they're probably struggling the most right now. Although I definitely have felt lonely over the past year. I'm not getting the type of connection that I need, but absolutely, Yeah.

Laura: There are times where I feel lonely when my family is all around me too. Like, you know, loneliness, I don't always think has to necessarily be about numbers of people that you're with, right? But yeah,

Sandra: it's about that, especially for INFJs. For us, it's about that deep personal connection. It could be, and you if you're not feeling that when you're with people, that can still be lonely.

Laura: Yeah, that is actually quite just almost disturbing to me. When I'm with people and we don't have that deep connection, it's like, hey, there's this, like, I don't know dissonance or something. That's not Yeah.

Anyway, that is super interesting. Okay? And so, you know, I have this memory of my childhood where my mom and dad and I were all introverts. We were sitting around reading and my sister is there, who's, I think it is extroverted. I think I've never typed her.

You know she's sitting there. She's got a book in her lap two and we're like, we're this happy family all just like reading together, but she's like narrating everything that she's doing just like like, just talking like and not getting a lot of input. You know, I just I think it must have been hard for her growing up in a family. All, everybody was just kind of comfortable.

Sandra: Yeah, and understanding what type of extra child you have makes a big difference to, like, different extroverts need different things like my ESTP stepdaughter is very like physical, like exponential type stuff like she needs to be doing something, participating in something not necessarily the connection like EFJs might be like where they really need to connect with you and talk with you.

it's a different type of need and so understanding that can help you get them in the right activities or outsourcing the correct way, or if you can't like, right now in the pandemic, so your hands are tied and you can't do all those things understanding like when I do have the energy to interact. How is this? How can I fill her bucket the most to get the most out of this hour that I have with her right now?

Laura: In the way that's least draining for me too. How can we find that middle ground, that balance, right? Yeah. Filling for her and not as draining for me. Yeah. Okay. So I know you've already mentioned your podcasts and your website. Is there anywhere else where folks can go to learn more from you?

Sandra: Yeah. So let's see. Check me on Instagram. I actually have taken a break from it for a couple months here because we haven't had any child care and my kids have been in school for 10 months and I'm homeschooling them and someone send help.

No, but follow me on Instagram @familypersonalities. My kids are actually going back to school on Friday, and then the podcast is called Family Personalities, that's on any podcast platform, and you can check out the website for. if you are interested in working with me or finding out more. It's familypersonalities.com.

Laura: Cool. Well, thank you so much, Sandra. This was so much fun to like, geek out about this and I think it'll be really hopeful for folks to know that knowing this about themselves and about their kids can bring a little bit of more harmony and understanding to their homes. So I really appreciate that.

Sandra: Yeah. Thanks for having me.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on instagram so that I can give you a shout out and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too.

December 18, 2021

Episode 95: Honoring Your Unique Child with Ryan Haddon

December 18, 2021/ Laura Froyen

For this episode, I am so excited to be joined by Ryan Haddon. She is a certified Life and Spiritual coach, clinical Hypnotherapist, and certified meditation teacher with over 16 years of experience with clients around the world. We will be diving into how you can use parenting as an opportunity to grow and heal through crafting healthy, well-differentiated relationships.

Here is an overview of our discussion:

Honoring Your Child's Uniqueness - and accepting that they aren't an extension of you
How To Grow Alongside Your Children with Conscious Parenting

To get more resources for this topic, follow Ryan on Instagram @ and visit her website.
Instagram: @ryan.haddon

Website: https://ryanhaddon.com

TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic overwhelm. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen, and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen. With this week's episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast and in this episode we're going to be talking about how as parents, we sometimes need to step back and let our kids live their own life and honor who they are as individuals.

And I'm really excited to have this conversation with my new friend and colleague, Ryan Haddon. She is a life coach and a clinical hypnotherapist and a certified meditation teacher and so we're gonna be having this conversation over the next little while. Ryan, thank you so much for being with us. Welcome to the show. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Ryan: Well, hello, Dr. Froyen, nice to talk to you and nice to be here and hello everyone. It's a pleasure to talk to other parents in the trenches on the field, you know, we're doing our best and I just want to give everyone a high five today for showing up.

Laura: It's so important, right? We are just doing our best.

Ryan: Yeah. And the fact that you tune into someone like Dr. Froyen to get a sense of what's out there and other sources of wisdom and insight. It just says a lot about who you are, right? And how you want to expand and develop.

And that's really, I think generational, I think that's our generation that really is not expecting to know everything, not knowing that it's okay to admit I'm fumbling my way through this, but my heart's in the right place and I want to be my best self modeling that for my child and I'm going to make mistakes and it's going to be okay. So I love who we are as a parenting segment me to say that

Laura: Isn't, it's such an honor to get to walk alongside parents in this journey of figuring it out and I have kids who are eight and a half and six and you have four kids. We're in this together, right?

Ryan: We are, we are and I will say having, you know, a first set of kids and the second set of kids. Even back in the day, I mean my kids are 22 and 19, those older ones. I do think at that time it was really hard to find parenting groups. It was hard to find, you know, real conversations happening.

I had a mommy group that we were pregnant together and had our babies together. We would meet all the time and I can't tell you that was like such a tall drink of water in a desert to just be like, what do we do about this? How do we handle that? What do we do about tantrums? How do we, you know, so I just think that we're the swath of parents, even one, you know, 10 years apart is there's just so many more resources, so much gratitude for that.

Laura: I agree. You know, I was just talking with my membership community yesterday about finding that community, finding that support network for yourselves as parents and what a struggle it is for some folks in some settings because their parenting differently. The folks who are listening to this are attempting to parent kind of against the grain. It's not necessarily mainstream parenting.

And we were talking about how they've, a lot of my group has been learning about respectful parenting and conscious parenting solely during the pandemic, solely during quarantine. So they've been really kind of in their bubble, do practicing this and parenting this way and they love it. It's life giving, it's joyful. There's deeper connections than ever.

And now they're going back slowly out into the world and they're realizing like, oh how do we keep this going with intention and consciousness in a world that is different. I know that that's not exactly what we were going to be talking about, but it speaks to consciousness, intention. What, do you have any advice for families who are moving into that space?

Ryan: Well, I want to say that those parents that you're describing really made the most of this time. You know, they really did. So you know, props to you. Bravo because you went deep. It's like you know, a natural childbirth when you're using your breath or even if you're assisted childbirth, you're using breath to go under the waves of intensity, you know, in those contractions and those you know that because there is a level of intensity being home with your child all day long and this home schooling and like let's just call it what it is.

I mean it's unrelenting in a way and it does feel like a bubble. So it can be glorious and there's also keeping it real moments where you're just pushed against the wall of like I don't think I can give anything else. And then you find that reservoir deep within to give more or understanding I have to pull away now to practice some self care and it might be some breath work, it might be some journaling, it might be those quick fix things to be able to then come back to it and offer something from a place of overflow because it's not easy to be on duty all the time.

It's hard for us to be on duty for ourselves all the time. We want to check out, you know? So it's then to do that with another little being who's just looking solely to you? It's like I said, I think the intensity of the pandemic and is beautiful. Those parents that you're speaking of, who have had an experience of a full immersion of going deep under those waves, calling something within themselves to be more available through themselves and their offspring. They really took that ride, you know, in a beautiful way, instead of treading water. And just when you get a break, when I get a break, you know what I mean?

Like that's like that's why I referred to the childbirth paradigm because it's a lot like that. You're not going to make it through if you're just going to stay on the surface of things treading water and taking little sips of air. It's when you deep dive under those waves of contraction and pain that you're able to really roll with it and come out another version of yourself and with a little being, you know, so I mean there's no one great way to give birth, let's be honest. It doesn't matter.

But I just know I've done both and when I have thought of those images certainly with my children when I'm in a face off with them, but also in giving birth, I was able to transcend and transmute those moments and integrate, you know the pain, the suffering, the contraction because there's all of that. And if you're not having that in your parenting, I don't know that you're doing it. I don't know what you're doing but that's our contracts with each other, right? They're going to help, we're raising them and I'm doing air quotes for those of you that are listening. But we're also you know, that's what it looks like from the outside. But yeah, go ahead. Say it.

Laura: They're raising us, too.

Ryan: Exactly. Exactly.

Laura: Rather they're giving us the opportunity to grow up alongside them. I never like to put the responsibility for our own growth onto kids, but they invite us and it's our choice and responsibility to heed that call to healing that they invite us to.

Ryan: Well they're mirroring, those darker places where they were not healed.

Laura: Yeah, they're showing us. I like the visual of a geode cracking open, that our kids crack us open and show us the part that have been hidden and then it's our responsibility to shine the light on them and let the shadows kind of fall away and step fully into ourselves.

Ryan: Yeah, for sure. And I think that's the healthiest way to look at it. I really do. And I think it's the most spiritual way, honestly. You know, so then it puts you off the hook of having to perform or be something you're not. You're intuitively moving through while keeping that focus on yourself in an unselfish way. Like, oh, what is this activating in me? Wow, you know, I have a special needs kid. So it actually had two of them and that kind of ratchets things up another level as well, because the tools that work with the others don't work with that one.

So I might seem like an expert with my four kids, but my fourth one, it's like everything went out the window and I have other experts that I work with to really learn these new ways of being, these new acceptance for what is. You know, I can't put her through a square peg; a round hole is one of the one thing I can't, it's not going to happen. So we all have to work with where she's at in any given moment.

And the truth is, is that's radical acceptance and when I can apply that to her and I can apply that to me, that compassion that we're not trying to move things along in a certain linear way, then we all benefit. You know, so those are her gifts and in the moment I don't see it that way. So I want to be fair and clear in the moment. I'm like, not always, but it does.

Laura: it's there. I feel like there's this like thread through what we've been talking to and I just feel like I want to say it. So I think oftentimes people worry that focusing on yourself and your own growth is selfish. But in actuality, it allows you to be more selfless with others because if we are focusing on our own growth, our own stuff, the stuff that our kids activate within us, we take responsibility and ownership for that and we allow them to not be responsible for it.

So rather than asking them to change themselves to make things more comfortable for us. We're working within ourselves to allow them to be who they are. You know, I think we often as parents, when we're in those stressful moments and we're uncomfortable, we're feeling our emotions, we just want our kids to listen or do what we say or be a certain way to make things less more comfortable for the world around them. And it's not their responsibility that when we focus on our work, then they can, we release them from the responsibility of any of our expectations and allow them to fully step into who they are. We accept them.

Can you talk about radical acceptance? What does that mean to radically accept a child?

Ryan: Well, first of all, want to say what you just said was so beautifully said. And so thank you for the clarity around that. And I think you're right. What happens is, is if we're not taking ownership of the activations, then we end up projecting onto them. And then there's those little voices, we have that say we're not doing this right, because they're not behaving a certain way.

And so it becomes like a self esteem pipe to the knees. You know, I'm right, I'm not doing this right. If things were, they should be behaving this way, that should look like that, they don't respect me. I'm not, you know. I can only speak to who comes through my practice and I know my own little voices like that that pop up that committee that pops in there in those emotion mind moments when everything gets really intense.

Like it just goes that primal and you're not thinking, oh, this is all happening as it should. Like, those are not the, that's not the voice that pops in unless you keep curating it. This is absolutely okay. So it's that self talk is so vital in those moments, but it's something to practice because otherwise those unconscious understandings of what should be happening instead.

And I'll segue right into radical acceptance, are what caused us so much pain as a parent, right? And so we move into radical acceptance for me means we stop spinning our wheels around what's actually unfolding in the moment, who someone is and that's where the pain is. The pain is in fighting reality. It shouldn't be this way, why didn't it happen this way? They should have done this, I should have done, like it's the spinning around something. That's how I see it.

The spinning around it is where the pain is. When if we can just say it is what it is and from that place of accepting the way it is. Then from there, I can come up with solutions of how it could go forward next or what I might do next time, but it's not fighting reality as it currently is presenting.

Laura: It’s the fight that causes the pain, not actually the thing that you think shouldn't be happening. It's the ship and we,

Ryan: I think it's like a defense mechanism, we do that. Like if a job, we miss it, lose a job or we miss a promotion or something and why did they do that? I should have got it. I worked hard. Like that's all the leak. It's an energy leak for us instead of, you know, we feel our feelings. It's not that we're doing a bypass, like we can feel all that, God, I'm disappointed. God, I really thought I was going to get it.

So we stay with the feeling around it and what it's activating versus trying to make reality go in a different direction and wanting it to be different and fantasizing how it should be different and digging in our heels around it, that's where that spinning happens.

Laura: I think you're hitting on something that is so important to understand. I think that lots of people here, the phrase radical acceptance, think that it means like we have to like it or that we have to pretend not to have feelings about whatever it is that's happening.

I love that you just differentiated those two things because radical acceptance is not about having any feelings towards it, like even positive feelings towards it. It's about acknowledging what is and separating our feelings from reality like that we can be disappointed about what is happening and at the same time accept that that is what's happening, you know, we can feel all the feelings about it and claim them and take responsibility for them. Own them versus disempowering ourselves by putting our responsibility for our feelings on the circumstance or on our child, or on radical acceptance comes up a lot in my interactions with my parents or my mother in law, you know, where I have to kind of just accept who they are except that they will not change and and then work with the situation as it is, you know?

Ryan: Yes, and it doesn't mean we condone it. Do you think that's important because if it's an injustice or traumas happen and we're not saying, oh, it's all great and wonderful, just like, you know, both of us are saying the same thing, it's just saying I don't necessarily like it. I don't agree with it, but it is what it is, you know? And I think that, and then we get to decide this is the empowerment piece who we want to be in relation to that. And I think that's always and it comes up with me with my little one, you know, it is what it is, and I find the resistance comes in like why is she still doing that? Why is this still happening? Why, we tried this or this? Why is it?

It's the why that really is what pulls me out of present time and keeps me out of the gift that's unfolding in that moment. Instead, I can just feel like I can just go back right to my feelings. God, I'm so frustrated. I feel so pissed and I find myself saying that to her sometimes I feel so frustrated and I'm modeling for her because she doesn't have the verbiage, you know. When you do this, I feel this, you know, and I think she understands that I don't say you're making me feel this. I'm very careful about that. I take and try to really take responsibility.

And I think that's and then I'm starting to hear her say that mom when you do this, I'm mad when you do this. I think that's all this good modeling that I'm learning for myself and that's the part where we're taking ownership and responsibility while modeling all the range of our feelings.

Laura: Yes. And reading in our generational change, you know, shifting the trajectory of our family. It's our legacy, it's beautiful. Okay, so I feel like this was perfect framing for what we actually wanted to talk about today because these are all involved in the idea of honoring who our children are, right, honoring who they are and accepting that they are not an extension of us.

This is something that comes up with my coaching clients frequently where the parents want the kids to do things or be a certain way and they simply are not there, it's not them and there's living through kids that happens. And so do you see that in your practice?

Ryan: Absolutely.

Laura: What are some of the things that we, that parents need to know about? This piece of honoring our kids of accepting our kids that we're not them or they're not us--they're not our extension, they're not our second chance, you know, all of those things?

Ryan: Well, that's just like you said, we'll go back to intergenerational healing because I do think our generation is different and I think a lot of people are hip to this idea, you know, these are souls that come in through us and they have their own contracts. They have their own experiences that are laid out for them and that sounds really great on a t-shirt and then a meditation retreat, but in reality these are places where we can get tripped up--places where if they're not doing something, it's a reflection again that we didn't do something right, or we didn't prepare them for the world or we didn't set them up for success or we didn't, you know, do this.

That what they accomplish somehow; this is the selfishness of it is somehow denotes our ability to parent in a good way because they have these accomplishments or because they are moving on a track forward. You know, that looks this way that we've all agreed societally, you go to college, then you have this kind of job and then you this and you get married. therefore you've raised a child that's successful and I want to say, and this might not be for the listeners, but I just feel like those paradigms are crumbling.

This old idea of what it should look like and what success looks like and the white picket fence with the, you know, 2.3 kids, like whatever it is in this bank account, we're all kind of in agreement. This is not necessarily what creates a successful human and we're renegotiating that and I do think that our group, our segment of parents is renegotiating that I'm hearing a lot of other parents say, I just want them to find happiness.

And that wasn't what I grew up with. You know, it was, you get to college and you have this, you get your degree and this happens and that happens. And then I remember getting out of college and being like, I am so ill prepared for the world. I do not know how to balance a check, I don't do this, I don't want to file taxes. I think that more and more, I have two kids that decided not to go to college.

My older kids or they started and decided not, it did feel resonant to who they are. And my first reaction to one of them was, oh my God, this was, I was like, oh my God, what have I done? You don't know, this is important and then to the other one, I could completely see this isn't a good match for you, you know? So I had both reactions to both and I had to make an apology to my other child for saying that because that was a slip on my part. You know, that was my fear that just came out, out of my mouth before I could catch it.

But that's the beauty, is that they know that I'm going to apologize, I'm going to contemplate and I'm going to come back and say, you know what, that was totally off, this was an old voice that I have in my head. I have to make peace with it so I apologized and she was like, no biggie mom, I know where you really stand. You know, she's making her way and it's fascinating to see that it's not what it was. So we get to pull in all our expectations, all our projections, all our old ideas and you know, that's true for my bigger kids.

Laura: I want to just sum up what you've said here. So we do this sometimes. I mean most of the time unconsciously, right? So we do this unconsciously because one, we kind of have this understanding that our kids' behavior reflects poorly on us or reflects on us at all. Really, that has something to do with how the society or the world will see us. And there's legitimate concern about wanting to be loved and accepted. So there's this one piece of it.

We also have deep concerns for them and their well being. We want them to be loved and accepted. We want them to be successful. So we have those very valid concerns that lead us to perhaps push them where we think they should go.

And then there's this third one that I think that is kind of the projections and the living through that happens at times with kids. Those three pieces are so important and they're in crucial to consider as you're making conscious decisions in your parenting, right?

So conscious parenting is about releasing the our unconscious default responses and choosing with intention, how we interact with our kids and we don't do perfectly like, you know, when we make our mistakes, we acknowledge it those three ways that we do this or the three kind of reasons that we do this are so important to be aware of. Like what is my motivation? Why am I pushing my kids this way?

Ryan: Yes, and trusting that they have an inner compass. It's everything; you stop parenting, you stop. It becomes like hopefully, I mean they say it never ends, but hopefully you're always, you know, that safe harbor there comes a point where they're just like done with input and it becomes a friendship that it's not two way.

Because it's not like it's like, oh, hey, I'm going through this right now. Like I mean we do speak openly like that, but it's not, I want to get clarity around that and speaking it, it's not like we're besties, you know, we're still, I'm still holding that line where I have this whole inner life that you know, they're not actually privy to because it would be a burden to them, right? I'm still holding the line as a mentor as a person in their life who's anchored into herself and so they can come to it's a safe harbor. They can, they can tie their boat too when they need to, but they go back out to sea and then they come back to me.

And it's an interesting thing when you're raising teens to find out when that point is because you don't want to burn bridges, well I’m just full of metaphors today, I apologize. Burn bridges, boats out to harbor.

Laura: The safe harbor one was beautiful. And now achieve of what secure attachment looks like in the teen years and in the young adult years because we still have an attachment relationship with our older kids throughout the lifespan. It's still there and that's what attachment looks like in the older years. Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah. It's finding those times to really, it is not an easy road to press in and to pull back and it is a total dance with them. When do you give advice? When do you say this? How I'm seeing it? Do you see it this way too? Because I'm hearing you say this, much like we do in our practice. You know when we're listening it's just that really holding space in that sense. And also, you know, but with parenting, it's it's harder to cultivate the detachment. My kids are like, mom stop coaching me. I'm like, okay. Yeah, they know that voice.

Laura: My kids call me a feeling doctor. And they will say mom, I don't want a feeling doctor right now, I want my mom.

Ryan: You know, I know that's adorable.

Laura: I know, it's good boundaries set good boundaries.

Ryan: Yeah, they do have a sense. They're like, she's got the voice. Yes, it's happening. But I love that and what a joy that they know that we have that wisdom that we're sitting on and that we're also using in our own life. You know, that's really like you can say everything, but it's what you're doing that's in a full observance. So they both have to have to be congruent.

Laura: They do. There has to be coherence there between what you say and what you do. Otherwise that dissonance can be really confusing to kids. Okay, so I feel like so, what this looks like then honoring your child, trusting your child, accepting them as they are. I feel like looks different at different ages.

And so I would love to just kind of touch on some of those different places, tight? And so we were talking before we started recording about this a little bit that with your young ones, they still need more guidance. They, you have information that they don't have the fully developed brain that can make rational decisions and you need to help them.

But when do, you, know like a moment where you need to let go and step back. How can you tell when those moments with younger kids? Because I think younger kids have that internal compass. I think they have it, I think they're born with it.

Ryan: Yeah, I mean if I lined up all four of my kids, they each came in with their own specific personality, their own mission. I know that their own, you know, I believe in reincarnation so I believe they're all at different points of development in the spiritual world. And I can see that, it's very clear and I feel like they help each other. Does with the agreements they have, their soul agreements. Four of them absolutely see how fully formed they actually are and their sense of who they are.

And so my job, I feel like is to really allow them each to bloom and grow at the pace that they do and the way that they do do that because I don't want to close anyone's ability to flow and bloom and say it has to be this way. It has to be that way, this is how we do things. Although I do, you know, say those with honesty and you know, apologies and this is what our family does and this is how we, you know, show up for each other.

And you know, I do say those types of phrases, but essentially I find myself explaining each to each other. She's doing that because of this. Do you see that? And they're like, oh yes, I do. That's the part I do get in there a little bit. Certainly when they're younger, when they're older, I had the other to understand each other quite, quite well.

Laura: Because they’ve done that work when they're younger

Ryan: Probably and they each kind of are so different that they look at each other and they're like, I can't believe that's how you're coming at this. It's like what, you know, it was fascinating because they're both oil and water to each other a little two and the older two. So that that's fascinating to see how they made that agreement to do that this round.

Laura: I have a story of a moment of this with my oldest daughter. So swimming lessons, she spent two years in swimming lessons when I knew full well that she couldn’t swim without ever leaving the wall or leaving her instructor's arms. When she was older, she was five during this, you know, so she, between four and almost 6.

Two years of swimming lessons, clinging, scared, unwilling to do what the other kids are doing just but wanted to keep going. She wanted to go every week. She was strong, she has an athletic body, she's beautiful. I knew she could do it and then one day, her grandmother's pool and she just swam across the pool, she just was ready right when she was ready.

And so it, that watching the swimming lessons, like I'd sit on my hands not saying anything. I'm confident you'll do it when you're ready. If the teacher started to pressure her, remember she's going to do it when she's ready, you know, like really holding that boundary of she will bloom when she's dang well ready to. She will and that's her personality. If there's an ounce of pressure, she won't do it. And when she was ready she swam across, I mean, she's a beautiful swimmer now, you know.

Ryan: What a beautiful story. Yes, that is that it just shows you held that line for her knowing that she would get there and, you know, her personality that's really intuitive parenting. I think that's what we're speaking about is really clawing into the personality, the soul, the person and saying it doesn't have to look like this to be successful. Knowing this is part of her process and putting so much value on the process versus the end result.

And I think that's what I was speaking about the college and how that's shifting, you know, it was so about outside appearances. I think that's what a lot of our parents we grew up with do this because this is how it's done, this is how we do it. And we're more about process. How do you feel? What is your soul telling you to do? What's your guide? What's your inner guidance? How do you feel about this?

You know, I find that's something I've had to really work with my kids when they come and ask me for advice is just to push it right back. What is your take on it? How do you feel about it first? I get that read and then, you know, to put value on their own process through their own filter, their own perspective. And I think that's what we can just keep pushing, put that back in their court and then offer up. Yes, that makes sense. That you'd see it that way. I totally understand that. That's good reasoning right there. Yeah, absolutely.

But also how about this thing? You know? And so I think that these are just ways where our parents are. I'm thinking a little older than you, but our parents were like do it because I said, so do it because that's how we do it. That's how it's done. This is, you know, it's a lot of that

Laura: Or even so I was on the receiving end of a parent who is living through me and my sister. So those kind of those three things that we were talking about, you know the way our kids will reflect on us kind of looking out for their own well being or the living through, you know, those kind of three things that we've hit on here. I was on the receiving end of a living through parents. And so I mean I went to a college that had, did not have the major that I wanted, that I could go and have the career and profession that I wanted to be. And I'm, I like I'm doing this work, which is beautiful and a beautiful calling for myself. But I'm doing this work because my dad wanted me to go to a specific college that didn't happen to have my major and he convinced me to and I wanted to please him.

Ryan: Yes. Oh my gosh, what a huge healing you had. What was that moment where you decided to follow your own path?

Laura: Much later. So I wanted to be a marine biologist. I still fantasize about going back to grad school and doing that work or you know, but I didn't and there's a piece of accepting what is that's ongoing in my life.

Ryan: And how have you made peace with that parent? How does that show up today?

Laura: He has acknowledged some parts of that at various times and there's acceptance that he has deep wounds and fears about his own inadequacy and having his daughters go to a college that he wouldn't have been able to attend in his wildest dreams was his attempt to heal himself.

Ryan: Yes.

Laura: Misguided attempt, but it was still an attempt.

Ryan: Yes, yes, for sure. I get all that I really do. It's so amazing because I'm listening to you and you are so good at what you do. So that’s a part of me that's like thanking him and I had tears in my eyes right now. You have a very specific insight about how to, that's your gift. You know, that you're listening for that and other people.

And I'm guessing all your clients benefit from you helping them find their voice and pushing against a parent's projection and and I'm sure you're raising your children to make damn sure like you did with your daughter because of that, you know, correction that you're making that course correction through your parenting. I know I've done that too, inversion. So we try to make sure our kids have a different experience and that really speaks to who you are and your path.

Laura: You’re making me cry.

Ryan: No, it's true. My goodness.

Laura: But it's not easy. So because of that, you know, it's, I am so grateful I get to do what I do because in teaching every day I do my own work, you know, and doing this work, I do the work for myself. I don't know if you experience that, but it keeps the top of mind for me, you know, allows, it invites me to be conscious throughout my whole life. But it's not easy.

Like there are moments where like my dad's voice comes out of my mouth, There are moments where I'm stuck and attached in the way that he was and I see myself going that path. It is a conscious effort to undo and unlearn that so that I don't pass it to my kids. It's not easy.

Ryan: No, it's not, it really isn't. This is as real as it gets and I know everyone listening has that voice or a version of that voice that they arm wrestle with. You know, I know I do too.

Laura: So it's and there's this is the work. Yeah, it is the work, there's a piece of it too, that is the understanding that I'm going to do this work, that's my work and there will still be stuff that comes out the other side that our kids will have their work to do, that is just the nature of it. You know, there will be mistakes that I make, that they all need to work through as they become parents.

You know that it's just how it is and I think that a lot of people go into respectful and conscious parenting with this deep fear of I don't want to screw my kids up the way that my parents screwed me up. And of course you don't, but there's a piece of it again on this acceptance and of things as we do have to accept that they will have their life and their life will have ups and downs and have pain in it and they will have work to do just like we do.

Ryan: And the spiritual blueprint is that this, this is earth school and so we're here to work things out., So there's nothing wrong with working things out, right? And so like I truly believe that those souls, they choose the exact parent who's got that exact set of lessons and things that have to be overcome and you know, and your kids chose really well because their mom is totally committed to this path and this journey and you're transmuting on the ground in the moment that just takes a special level of commitment, you know.

Laura: I think that true to every, for everybody who's listening, everybody who's listening, your kids chose you for a reason and they chose well.

Ryan: Really well and you can't f*** it up. You can't and that's not just like a dismissive things to say, but I think if you're someone whose heart's in the right place and to say, I don't want to f my kids is a beautiful thing because somewhere there's a knowing that you're going to be, become another version of yourself growing up alongside them.

And so that's, if you keep coming back to that, you're winning. That's it. Every time you notice and you say, oh wow, there's my stuff, wow, look at me projecting. It's not about this idea of perfection. We're smashing that to the ground. It's over. It's just about, that can get messy and just knowing it's not them, it's you.

They're doing what they're doing; come back to you, come back to the feelings that this is bringing up in you and then come back to them and keep offering from that place of that willingness, that devotion, that self love. That's keep growing that out and you're doing everything you can possibly do.

Laura: That's where true, deep, authentic connection happens when we get all of our stuff out of the way so that we can see our kids clearly and see ourselves clearly and connect on this true self level. Beautiful. Thank you, Ryan, for that.

Ryan: Thank you. What a beautiful conversation we've had.

Laura: I so agree. Thank you so much for being here with lots of directions I wasn't expecting, but it was all beautiful and so necessary. Thank you so much, Ryan

Ryan: Same. Thank you.

December 14, 2021

Episode 94: Racial & Educational Equity & Advocacy with Sonia Lewis

December 14, 2021/ Laura Froyen

In this episode, I am joined by my friend and colleague Sonia Lewis. She is a California native, wife and mother, former high school history teacher, turned entrepreneur. She is the visionary and founder behind ASCRIBE Educational Consulting, where they lift and center equity, humanity, and belonging. Long story short, Sonia is an Anti-Racism Impact Strategist, ready to face challenging topic without blame and shame. Here is a summary of our conversation:

Family life and how to be balanced and give children agency
Blended families and being the BONUS in someone's life (child and parent)
Raising Anti-Racist children
Educational Equity

To learn more about this topic, follow Sonia on social media and visit her website:
Instagram: @ASCRIBEsuccess
Facebook: ASCRIBE Educational Consulting
Twitter: @AscribeEd
Website: www.ascribesuccess.com

TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic overwhelm. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, we're going to be talking about a topic that is near and dear to my heart and so important. We're gonna be talking about educational equity, how to advocate for our kids and everyone else's kids, and how to raise kids that know how to stand up for themselves and advocate for themselves and others.

And to help me with this broad and important conversation, I am so excited to welcome in a new friend and colleague as my guest, Sonia Lewis. And I'm gonna let her introduce herself. So she's a mom to multiple kiddos as a big extended bonus family and I'm so excited to have her on the show Sonia, welcome to the balanced parents. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Sonia: Fabulous, thank you so much for this opportunity and to share with you all today. I am Sonia Lewis as Dr. Froyen mentioned and I am the owner and creator of Ascribed Educational Consulting, but more important, the reason I got into this work is because I have Children of my own and I spent many years in the education system doing work around equity and as a high school teacher, you get to see lots of things. And one of the things that's super important to me is the fact that when we see that they're broken things in our system, we as educators and parents and all stakeholders involved can really and truly lean in together and try to find solutions to those problems.

Laura: Which direction would you like to go next into this?

Sonia: So let's go into, you know, like family life and how to just be balanced and give them agency and stuff.

Laura: Yeah, okay, So Sonia, I know that you've just written a book and I'm really intrigued by this book, not just because it's the topic, but because you kind of wrote it for your 7 year old self. Can you tell us a little bit about the story and what you're hoping to accomplish with your book?

Sonia: You know, my seven year old self, she teaches me a lot. I've just embarked on my 50th birthday recently and I still lean on lessons that I can learn from my seven year old self. So at seven, I realized after experiencing a lesson on the statue of liberty that the last line in the pledge of allegiance just in my opinion didn't apply to myself in my community and I recognize that at seven. And I don't know you know where it came from or how I made the connection, but I just felt like liberty and justice for all wasn't really for all.

I was, I've always been that person who was very super literal about things and so I went to school one day, second grade in the bay area of California And I sat during the pledge of allegiance and this is in the 70s. And so that was almost like a no no.

And I was punished really heavily because of that decision, but I was steadfast and why I made the decision and it took probably a good three or four months for my teacher to accept the fact that I wasn't going to say the pledge of allegiance and then she, you know, she was known on our school campus as the meanest teacher, you know, ever to walk the campus and eventually she retired that year.

And the principal that you know, dealt with the situation, she was very kind, she was very progressive and she wanted to understand why I had come to that decision and she helped me shape the words and articulate what it was I was trying to express. And so seven year old Sonia oftentimes is my beacon of courage. And so when I just need a little bit of courage juice, I think about myself at seven and how I stood up to the quote unquote, meanest teacher, you know, that I had ever had and you know, who previous students who had warned us, you know, a little second graders like she is so mean.

But writing this book, I wanted to inspire young people that you too can recognize things in the world because what we do know scientifically speaking is that young children know right from wrong between the ages of three and five and they begin to start to see how they fit in the world at around, you know, 5 to 7.

And so it makes sense to me now, looking back that, okay, I was seven and it seems like a very young age, but it's very appropriate when we're talking about, you know, mentally and developmentally wise, what young people aren't capable of. And so that's why I wrote the book is to inspire young people that you have a voice. It's important and to lean on those people who are around you to help you center your agency and voice because it's important.

Laura: It is, it's so important. I think I so agree with you that kids have such a keen sense of justice, they have such a keen sense of fairness, they're very good at noticing differences, noticing discrepancies when our words don't align with our actions are very good at noticing those things. And I don't know if you know this about me and our podcast, but we talk a lot about reparenting and inner child work.

So really using our reconnecting with our inner children, healing old wounds, but also using them for good in our life, letting them inspire us and you're just you're modeling that beautifully for my community right now. I appreciate it so much.

Sonia: Absolutely. Especially important when we look at just the studies when, you know, young people are approaching that those years of transition from childhood to adulthood, right, and what are we leaving them with to like figure out?

And so one of the things that I've been, you know, thinking in my mind and just posing like, wouldn't it be amazing if young people didn't have to heal from trauma? Right, just that sure ideation and thought all in in and of itself is like how do we prepare young people so that they can understand and be as healthy as possible when they're dealing with any kind of relationship, be it friend or romantic or at work or in community, right?

So that they don't have to heal from in those wounds that they've experienced don't show up based on triggers are faced with on a daily basis. And so I'm very interested in that those kind of works and conversations because it's important that we give them more than what we were given.

Laura: Absolutely. And this is true at home and our families with our kids, but also in school and educational settings too, right?

Sonia: Absolutely.

Laura: Can you tell me a little bit about your educational advocacy and equity work?

Sonia: I spent 20 years teaching high school history, a couple of those years in middle school and I realized middle school, it's just the whole ball of wax that is just like, yeah, no, I can't do this, this is a lot. But what I loved about young people in general is that one, they keep me young, right? But two, they are so inquisitive and if you give them just a little bit of, you know, something that is a spark, they will run with it.

They are just amazing when it comes to thinking outside of the box. And so in teaching high school history, I've always been approached that history is so boring and history is not my, you know, funny subject and when students left my classroom best believe they had a better understanding and a better appreciation for why history is important.

And so when we think about just that experience in and of itself and being able to be a conduit for young people. Being able to be an advocate for young people, I like to sit back and let young people share, you know, the things that are on their mind so that they feel like they are part of the equation and it's not just adults regurgitating and throwing information at them. It's important when we're talking about advocacy that we recognize who in the room is has the least amount of resources or are suffering the most based on the system the way that it's designed.

And unfortunately we've lived for so many years in a country where by design, some kids are going to have the resources and other kids are not going to have the resources. And so part of my expertise and my experience has been to recognize those demographics that are lacking in resources.

And to provide pathways and by creating programs or writing curriculum, whatever it is to make sure that those resources are allocated to those who are most disenfranchised by the system. So that kind of speaks to the advocacy work that I've done as a teacher as far as profession is concerned, I left the classroom probably about 10 years ago and I started in the educational consulting business and it really and truly was about the things that parents were calling me about that were outside of the scope of me being a teacher in the classroom. Can you help my kid fill out this college application?

Can you help them be ready for a job interview? Right? And then that translated to administrator saying Sonia, can you come in and write a program for this group of students because you're doing, You know, that work on transition, there have been so many pivots in my business over the past 10 years, but that then led to me doing a lot of culture and climate work on campuses when I see, you know, some things that are maybe not going so well coming in and giving some fresh eyes to solutions.

And then now because of the time that we're living in, I call it the collide of two pandemics, the pandemic of covid and the pandemic of racism. I'm able to go into school settings and say, look, let's create an anti racist framework so that all students, regardless of where they come from who they are as individuals, humanity is centered around how they are belonging into the equation.

Laura: Oh my gosh to humanity centered approach to education that just like makes my soul ring. You know, we were talking before we started recording about how we are in this unique period of time where we have the opportunity because schools have been closed, they've been shut down and we're in this place where we have a chance to do things differently to really look at the systemic inequalities that are baked and not accidentally but intentionally baked into our systems and do things differently.

And so if a family is looking to advocate for that, some of those structural and systemic changes to take place in their school environments where they're sending their kids, how can we go about as parents with power differentials, right? We don't have a lot of influence often as parents like how can we go in to start working for change in our own school systems.

Sonia: I really have appreciated this moment of being able to re imagine, you know, the structure of the educational system. So when this just learning first started, it was very like disorganized and not to the advantage of students or parents right? And so we have to figure out how do we do this and how do we manage?

And so one of my first things that I did, I put back on, my teacher had for the first time in a long time and I started a virtual classroom where students from all over the country can log in and we really, it was a very inclusive environment, but we we focused on the things that I was never able to teach in the traditional classroom. So even though it was black and brown centered and marginalized student centered, it was those things that were allowed students to connect the dots about, you know, the struggles.

And while we did not lift the and I hate this ideation of the oppression olympics, we talked about what struggles we have in common as communities. And I think that when we see those commonalities that people can then show up in spaces and say I'm going to fight on behalf of someone who is not necessarily mine, but because I want better for all of our children and when our children show up in spaces and they know how to recognize that they have voice and agency, then they will feel more comfortable coming home telling mom and dad, grandma grandpa, whoever their caretaker is, I witnessed this, I experienced this and I need your help.

And so ways that parents can show up, in my opinion, it's still the same thing. Show up in the classroom as a volunteer, right? And just be those eyes and ears if it's a kid that you're seeing that is you know, alone or a loner or is quiet and more reserved, you know, give that friendly high in that high five or that fist bump or you know that smile but make sure that they feel welcome and invited in those spaces.

And then the other thing that I would say is even though some parents don't feel like they are part of the equation when it comes to things like school site councils or PTAs and things of that nature in those organized spaces, make sure that you have a relationship with, I say, the key people on campus, of course your principal, right? But like the secretary and the janitor or like the people on campus who know everything, everything,

Laura: There's some plugged in.

Sonia: Right? And so get to know those people because not only will they give you insight about how your child is matriculating through their school life, but they'll give you insight about you know certain teachers and and certain dynamics as they show up on school campuses. And then finally when we're talking about ways to think reimagining about how the school system is just has had historically some inequities embedded in it, is that we can fight for things like but not limited to ethnic studies being a thing around campus is right?

And I say from K. to 12 and beyond because like me teaching this teaching that I you know designed when the pandemic hit, I realized that I love elementary and I never taught elementary before and I it was the younger kids that made me fall in love with teaching again. And so we're like entering into our second iteration of the teaching this summer and we're going to be teaching like financial literacy components.

And so they're motivated by knowing where their dollar is spent, how to make money and so we're going to talk about how to grow a home garden to fight a food desert depending on the neighborhood you live in. They're going to learn about entrepreneurialship, but from the sense of what are the problems in your community and how can you turn that into a business or nonprofit?

And then finally they're going to learn about the stock market and at the end of the program they're going to get $100 So that they can invest in one of those three so that they can build their own generational wealth; they can experience what it means to be in control of something. And so I just say parents think outside the box, like get with some other parents. I don't care if it's two or three or five or 20 parents that you know, think outside of the box and really think about ways where you can leverage your skills and expertise and bring them into the classroom

Laura: Oh, I love that. I hope that you will send me the links for those programs. So listeners can either join or support you in those amazing endeavors. Okay, so can I ask another question too. Okay, so from an educational consultants standpoint, a lot of my listeners have kids who are kind of out of the box.

Maybe they identify as being neurodiverse on the spectrum or just have some behavioral challenges, some delays in emotional and social development and parents who listen to this often have to advocate within school systems for their kids. Do you have any tips or advice for how to show up for your kids? A lot of them are afraid of being the squeaky wheel in the system.

Sonia: Yeah, unfortunately it does require a lot of showing up and and being on top of things, I always say introduce yourself at the beginning of every school year, as you know, being very upfront and transparent about this is my child, I am here at any time, make sure that you keep me in the loop of what's going on with my child because it's important. I would send, you know, I don't have children that are on the spectrum.

I have a couple who have been diagnosed with A. D. H. D. and things of that nature. And so but my kid that was A. D. H. D. was also tested gifted and talented. So there was this huge, like how do we serve this kid who may have these behavioral issues and challenges focusing, but it's so like brilliant and artistic, how do we serve a kid like that? And a lot of times teachers are not prepared for the nuances of what that looks like in the classroom. And so like my fifth grader right now he slightly has a little bit of A. D. D.

He's not quite on the spectrum of A. D. H. D. but just a little bit of A. D. D. where he has challenges staying on task, but I would say, you know, as a parent, your voice and your place as a stakeholder is super important to your child's experience in the classroom. And so from the beginning, laying out the importance of who you are in your child's life is supercritical. And so from that first day, like sending an email or a letter or a phone call saying these are the things that are my expectations, like list them out.

If there are things that you've experienced in the past, you know, be honest about, I don't want to see this happening with my child because we have this experience and this was what the outcome was, but be very transparent about those things, you know, also be very transparent about your capacity to show up in spaces like IEPs and 504 is right because in those spaces, these are the opportunities to shape the next year's educational plan for your child.

And be honest, if you don't know something and ask for help, like really and truly it is the education system job to provide resources. Unless we say, Hey, this is a problem, or this is a thing that I don't necessarily understand. Lots of kids fall through the cracks and they don't receive the resources that they deserve.

And I think that all kids deserve the opportunity to excel and there's a way to push him without being forceful and being that thorn in the side, but I am also not against being a thorn in the side, you know. Unfortunately we live in a time where folks are stereotyped by the way that they show up in spaces.

So I am a darker skinned black woman and you know, we have stereotypes, you know, that when you show up in spaces, you know, people might perceive me to be one way and it is those opportunities where I'm able to use my privilege, my proximities to whiteness, or my proximities to power to advocate on behalf of maybe a parent who is black or latinx, or you know, indigenous, and they don't have the words to articulate what their child might need.

Laura: Yeah, I think that's so important to that, especially for those of us who are in privileged positions or positions of powers to understand that when we are advocating, you know, and making changes for our children, you know, advocating for for example, reducing policies of removing recess privileges, you know, getting rid of that policy that when we advocate for a policy wide change versus just for my child, then we're supporting all of the kids in the classroom. There's no child benefits from having recess taken away, you know? Yeah, yeah. Thinking about those things, that's really important.

Sonia, I really appreciate you bringing this perspective to our podcast and helping us think through some of these changes that are happening. And I think it's really important to remember that like as we, you know, we started out talking about how we can help children learn to advocate for themselves, and now we're talking about how we can advocate for children, and they go hand in hand, right? They we have to practice what we preach and model the advocacy that we want to see them stepping into and not squash them as they start advocating for themselves.

Sonia: Absolutely. You know, one of the tenets of my teaching is that I want to give you the tools to make sure that you can lift your voice yourself. And so teaching kids, young people to really just look at a situation, develop, you know, an idea with their peers themselves around what possible solutions are is so much more powerful than someone coming in and say, okay, you've got this problem, here's what you need to do.

Like as an advocate, one of the things that I am very steadfast on making sure that when I'm organizing and I'm doing, for example, social justice work, right? That it's not a matter of me being an experienced social justice advocate to show up in spaces to shake up the norm, that we've been all accustomed to, right?

It's a matter of seeing who is most disenfranchised by the system and allowing, not, not necessarily even allowing, but having the privilege to center those people who are most disenfranchised because when they see the thing that they are most disenfranchised by and how it impacts their life when they see their voice and hear what that experience does for everyone else, oh my God, it's powerful right? It's powerful to see that revelation as it takes hold of their body and it just gives them courage in a different kind of way to make it out of a situation that maybe at one time or another they felt like there was no way out of.

Laura: Oh yeah, I think that's so beautiful. It's so and thank you for sharing that that decentering of your own experience and looking around to whose experience needs to be actually centered. Yeah and I mean then that applies to parenting too, because the little ones are you know within the power structure of a family, the little ones are the most disenfranchised. You know they are.

Sonia: Absolutely and not only are they the most disenfranchised, they're watching and absorbing those things and then they become adults and they take on either the role of, you know, what they witnessed or they become the victim of what they experienced, right? So the cycle continues. And so it's a huge thing in all families where you begin to say, okay what am I leaving that child with?

What am I leaving with them with? And then you look up 20 years later as they're an adult and you say oh I left them with that. Oh I'm so sorry I can remember my mom and I having this cantankerous relationship, especially in my teen years I considered myself a black sheep and I love my mom to death. She is like the most beautiful soul and has been my biggest cheerleader and fan, but at the same time she was for a lack of better words--she wanted to make sure that I was stronger than her.

And so she didn't necessarily know how to go about doing that. And so it was you do this, you do what I say, but not what I do. It was one of those kind of scenarios. And so often times I would look and I would say, but that didn't work for you. And so why are we doing this again? And my outspokenness, she would tell you that I knew that I had trouble on my hands when you know, seven year old Sonia showed up with a note from school saying that she refuses to say the pledge of allegiance.

And so she had to put on her learn her advocacy had on behalf of her child at a very early time in her parenting. And so you know, I can remember being 18 and writing her this long letter. I think it was like about 15 pages and I was like, this is what I liked about my childhood and this is what I hated and I hated this and I hated this. And I hated this.

And I need when my children to grow up and be your grandchildren for those not to be the experiences that you leave them behind with. And she recognized like, yeah, I did that, I left you behind. So that goes back into what I said at the beginning, like imagine when young people don't have to, you know, seek therapy when they're adults because of the things that the adults in their life left them with.

But that was therapy for us. You know, I was quickly able to forgive her and and we've had a very beautiful adult relationship. She's like one of my biggest cheerleader. She's one of my employees with my business. I couldn't do what I do on a regular basis without her. So, but get to those points where we can have those kind of relationships and boundaries with our parents.

Laura: It was a beautiful modeling for all of our listeners who are many are looking to do that exact same thing with their parents and perhaps you know to your mom who was able to take that on. That's not an easy thing.

I know you're a grandma now and so your phase two where you're starting to look at, you know, you've got older kids and you're starting to take a look at those new boundaries, navigating those new waters. That's not an easy thing to do. So, wow, congrats to your mom for being able to handle that well.

Sonia: Yeah, I appreciate her. I mean she has taught me. I used to as a kid, I would be like, I am not going to be the parent that you were and then when I became a parent, I was like dang it, I'm doing some things that my mom was doing.

Alright. I said I wasn't gonna do that. And as a grandparent it really gives me a complete different, you know, lens and scope to look from and my three granddaughters, they will say, you know, Nana is the strongest woman I know because Nana is doing, you know, this and Nana makes sure that we are all taken care of.

And so when my oldest grandchild, when she comes to see me and she's an adult now she's 20 and she says, Nana, I miss you so much. I'm like, all I am is a phone call away and you just don't use your phone, you know so?

Laura: What a beautiful life and experience you've had, thank you for sharing it with us. I really appreciate your time and expertise.

Sonia: Absolutely. It has definitely been a pleasure.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on instagram so that I can give you a shout out and definitely go follow me on instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too.

December 10, 2021

Episode 93: How to Help Your Child Have a Healthy Relationship with Food with Jennifer Anderson

December 10, 2021/ Laura Froyen

I have an amazing guest for this episode. She is Jennifer Anderson of the amazing Instagram account @kids.eat.in.color. She is a registered dietitian, a mom of two very exciting boys and a cheerleader to hundreds of thousands of parents feeding kids through the Kids Eat in Color social media movement. She helps parents let go of mealtime battles, reduce their stress, and get their kids on the path to eating better.

Here is a summary of what we talked about:

How to have a balanced and healthy relationship with food
How to teach kids to listen to their bodies’ hunger and satiety signals
Setting boundaries around food particularly sweets
Picky eaters and how to get them eat veggies

Find more resources on how to end your food battles with kids by following Jennifer on social media and visiting her website.

Instagram: @kids.eat.in.color

Website: kidseatincolor.com/links/

TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic overwhelm. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this episode of the Balanced Parent Podcast, I have a really, an amazing guest that I'm so excited to share with you. I'm bringing in Jennifer Anderson of the amazing Instagram account @kids.eat.in.color.

She is a registered dietitian, a mom of two very exciting boys and a cheerleader to hundreds of thousands of parents feeding kids through the kids eating color social media movement. She helps parents let go of mealtime battles, reduce their stress and get their kids on the path to eating better. And I know everybody listening is so excited to hear from you Jennifer. So welcome to the show. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself and what you do?

Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me, Laura. It's great to be here. So yeah, I mean like you said, I'm a mom, I'm a cheerleader to hundreds of thousands of parents and now millions of parents all over the world and I really deeply believe that parents are doing a great job and when we believe that, we can do a little bit better and we can solve our problems even better.

Laura: Oh my gosh, I agree with you. Aren't parents amazing?

Jennifer: Yeah.

Laura: Yeah, right? Just a shout out to all of the listeners here, if you show up for your kid, your families in a way that is just so inspiring. I feel, I don't know about you, Jennifer, but I feel so blessed to get to do this job in this work and work with parents in this way.

Jennifer: Absolutely. I mean parenting is no joke to pay out things that never ends and you know, we have to keep showing up. It doesn't matter what's going on. You know, sometimes we show up barely dragging ourselves to the game and sometimes we are kind of on top of it, but it's tricky to be a parent. It's tricky to feed kids.

Laura: It is, you know, so just a little bit about my own journey around food with my kids, I had a pretty traumatic birth and felt pretty out of control and so attempted to control what I could and food is something that I could control when I had my first baby and we had some feeding issues right at the beginning because she was a NICU baby and so I was really controlling with food for her first two years and then we were at a birthday party and she just had no control around sweets that were there, it was her first birthday party.

I was like, wow, this isn't okay. And so I started looking into intuitive eating and how to raise healthy eaters because I grew up feeling out of control around sweets as a kid and I didn't want that for my kids and I found your account and you're really, really helpful in helping me figure out how to have a balanced relationship, especially with sweets and treats.

And so this is a question that I get a lot from the families that I work with the families who follow me on Instagram and I know my personal story what I did to help my kid, I kind of almost heal her relationship with sweets and now both of my daughters have really healthy relationships with sweets and treats where there's not a lot of pull.

They've got lots of experience self regulating, but can we talk about this for a little bit, you know, okay, the question that I get is kind of, how do I help my kids have a healthy relationship with food where they're not feeling, I don't know, one of the moms wrote in and said they don't have a complex around seats, which I totally had, I can still remember the first time I binged on sweets, it was on like sugar cereal at a friend's house. I just ate bowl after bowl after bowl because we, we weren't allowed to have it at our house. You know, what do we do? Where do we start?

Jennifer: Yeah. Well, first of all, I just want to say there's no one perfect way to do this, where if you do x, y, z, your kid will also somehow be a quote, perfect to eat or whatever, that, you know, kids are so different and I know that I've read plenty of books and you know, they didn't work for my kids at all. So you always have to find the right thing for your family, for your kid. And every kid has different health needs and all of those things.

But one of the things we have to think about is as our kids get older and they're exposed to sweet and you know, maybe we've just not exposed them and that's fine, you know, delaying exposure is a great way to reduce their consumption of sweets without making a big deal, especially if they don't know about it, you know.

So all of a sudden they go to a birthday party and they learn about birthday cake and their life is changed forever where they go over to grandpa and grandma's and they have M and M's for the first time or whatever and all of a sudden the world changes for you and for them because now they know that thing exists and they're going to go to the more birthday parties and they're going to go over to grandma and grandpa's again.

Maybe they're going to go trick or treating if that's something your family does. All of a sudden you have a choice at that time to continue to make it a big deal because we all, we've all had sweets and guess what they taste delicious and they feel good and you know, all these things. Right? So we have a choice are we going to go down the path of, okay, so we are now part of our life or are we going to go down the path of, oh my gosh.

I have to protect my kid from this at all costs. This is poison that I'm putting in my child's body, we have a choice of how we're going to kind of try to navigate this. I have a close friend whose mother was extremely concerned about and he's perceived quote junk food and you know, her kids had allergies and so we've got cause, right?

I mean none of us have bad intentions as to our kids? So she never ever allowed any soda, no, can soda consumption whatsoever under any circumstances. Fast forward he goes to high school. She never have any more control over what he drinks. He drinks so much soda every day.

Within a year, he has a cavity in every single tooth. You know, there's these extreme stories where when we are extreme with our kids. They don't always do what we want, but if we can actually kind of navigate the gray area where no, we're not feeding our kids tons and tons and tons of sugary foods, not a best practice for their teeth or their health or anything else.

You know, we need some volunteer, but if we can try to navigate that gray area of yeah, we do have sweets and they are part of our life, but we're trying to decrease the fascination, the obsession, the curiosity with them so that it's just part of our life and also broccoli is part of our life and that's an important, wonderful part of our life. We can try to normalize sweets to the level that we try to normalize vegetables with just totally different experience with the kids and with feeding.

Laura: Yeah. Okay. So there were two things that I feel like I wanted to pull out there and so we can go down to pass. But when you said “junk food”, I feel so strongly about labeling foods. And so I hope at some point we can talk a little bit about how to talk about food. But I also want to talk about like big thing that I heard you saying there was that kids need opportunities to experience and practice the skill of regulating themselves around food.

That we've been applying all of the control. We've been their willpower for just a lack of a better word, their whole lives and then they go into a space where we no longer have control. They don't have it either because they've never practiced restraint. They've never practiced balance with any of these things.

Jennifer: Not only that, but you've created a fascination. So there's plenty of studies. So if you call something bad and if you restrict it heavily, your body feels restricted and therefore you're obsessed about it. You want it a lot. Not only that, but a lot of us, maybe we grew up with eat your food and then you get dessert Philip.

I've worn by, it's a broccoli and then you get your ice cream. The problem is every time, every single time we use food as a reward, we decrease the value of other food and we remote the value of that. So we have the best intentions. You know, parents have the best intentions.

Laura: Okay, so parents have the best of intentions. We want our kids to learn.

Jennifer: Yeah, we want kids to learn and we think if we teach them that they have to eat their broccoli first and we're teaching them that broccoli is more important. Actually teaching them is that dessert is a reward and it's better and therefore broccoli is worse. And so we actually are teaching kids to be very opposite of what we want them to work.

Laura: Yes, it's the same thing as with chores, when we reward them for doing something, we teach them, you're not supposed to want to do this without this reward.

Jennifer: And it's because I have definitely rewarded my kids to do various things, you know what, I need you to do this or not, I need you to do it right now, but the more you do it, the more you don't want to do it.

Laura: Yes, these messages, these unintended kind of under between the line messages that kids get were saying this a lot overtly through the best of intentions that parents, we're all just doing our best. We are every single one of us who is concerned about what our kids are eating are concerned about because we want our kids to be the healthiest, balanced kiddos and grow up strong and healthy, right?

Jennifer: Absolutely has some intentions because we grew up where the, this is how we grew up. So of course we're going to do that with our kids. There's no reason I don't believe that we should ever give a parent a hard time for what they're doing, They may not have heard of a new method, they may not feel comfortable with a new method, they may not understand why it makes sense because so much feeding kids especially now where we're actually growing up in a different world than we grew up in or that our parents grew up in or that their parents grew up in.

We actually need some different parenting techniques and we need some new ways of teaching kids how to navigate a life. You know, they're going to go out into society into a world that's just kind of like sugar is all over the place and it's in everything.

So how do you navigate that? How do we teach kids to really listen, new their body over time to become comfortable knowing when they're full and when they're hungry and when they had enough cookies and when they haven't and how that's different on different days. We don't have to give our kids a two cookie rule, you know, which is something that a lot of hair as well to cookies any more than that, you know, not enough. The problem is that they always eat two cookies. Always, always, they never have a chance to get their bill of cookies and they also can't stop at one cookie if they're satisfied? Right?

Laura: Oh yes, Absolutely. Okay. So I'm dying to know then what are the things like that we can do, what are some like concrete things off the top of your head. Sorry to put you on the spot.

Jennifer: The thing that I recommend is if your family has dessert and you've been using it as a reward or you know, two more by CIA dessert, stop doing that. Start putting a small child taste portion of dessert on the plate. Some debate. Should you let kids have as much dessert as you want at dinner? I don't think so.

There's no like study that shows what the best thing to do is hear dinner, a small child sized portion is fine and if they ask for more, you can say, well there's no more available for this meal will have more on Tuesday or you know, whatever it is, the thing is you have to stay cool and you need to remember your kid is probably going to freak out if they've been obsessed about this for like what do you mean?

I can't have more because I'm all about dessert right now and now I can't have more and then they're throwing a tantrum or you know, whatever you wanna call it, they're really freaked out because you can't have more, you have to just climb over that mountain, there's going to be a couple of weeks where you're feeling uncomfortable and you're wondering if this is working and and all this sort of thing. But once they realize this is all, but we're also going to have it another time you begin to build their understanding of Oh, okay. It's just the same as broccoli. Really?

Laura: Yeah.

Jennifer: And you know, there may be times when you run out of broccoli and guess what? There's no more available for this meal, that's just part of life that sometimes various foods are not available in unlimited quantities. Right? So it's a lifelong skill sometimes where kids can eat as much as they want and that's a really hard one for parents.

Laura: Yes, it absolutely is. So what you're talking about is holding a firm compassionate boundary, a limit that all of the parents listening here, working on learning how to do, you know, I'm practicing with her kids and it's no different with food. What was interesting for me when we started serving desserts with meals.

So my youngest is almost six and she's only ever experienced that, but my oldest was I think probably two or 2 and a half when we started it with her. So if we're having a dessert served with the main course and it was so interesting to watch their different strategies. So when she first started that she just immediately ate the whole thing and then it was gone and then she ate her other foods with no problems.

That was really anxiety-provoking for me that like, you know, because I was in the midst of my own work with sweets. I think that this is something that is so I mean the food is a microcosm of the parenting relationship as a whole, right? So when we're working on parenting, we have our own work to do and then the work that's exterior with our kids. It's the same with food or at least it was for me, I was going through this food journey with my daughter.

So that was really, I had to do a lot of like self regulation watching her eat like a child-sized cup of putting or whatever it was that we were having. But their strategies on how they eat their desserts are so funny and they still are consistent of my oldest is eight now and she will eat almost all of her sweet treat her dessert, eat the rest of her food and save one bite of the sweet and then just sit with it in her mouth for like 10 minutes.

Yeah, that's whereas my other one, well she's always just done that, gone around in a circle and usually ends, you know? But their strategies are so interesting. It was once I got over my anxiety, it was interesting to watch that develop.

Jennifer: I love what you're saying is like once you get over your anxiety, you can just kind of have this curiosity and your own kids. Like when you're not obsessed about whether you're doing it right or doing it wrong. Obviously you could just be our kids for what they are which is these creative little beans that are sitting at the table and they're just learning to be themselves. I remember watching my first child teach himself how to eat.

I didn't know about baby-led weaning. I was basically just just following his lead, which is he wanted to feed himself. And we mostly had pureed ish type foods at that time. You know, my husband and he felt this like a little method of scooping up the puree and pushing it through the top of this little fist and feeding himself. It was so adorable from what I think is so amazing is at that time I truly didn't care whether I was doing weaning right.

You know, it was following the best practices with responsive feeding for your kid and so it just didn't matter. And so I was really able to enjoy what he was doing, which was so adorable. And my second kid burned it, taught himself to eat totally differently.

Every kid, it's so different and when we can just step away from, you know, the societal expectation that we're going to have Mommy Wars over weaning and we're going to Mommy Wars, like what we're feeding our kids all these things, We lose our ability to appreciate that moment when our kids are just being adorable and learning and growing and you know, all those things.

Laura: It's so true. The stress and anxiety and the worry about doing it right takes us right out of the moment and out of presence and keeps us from enjoying these times with our kids.

Jennifer: I mean that said when I went to the pediatrician and my son had birth issues then all of a sudden the anxiety of course are over there. So there are times when you know other information comes in, you can no longer enjoy the moment because you're freaking out that your kids are growing up.

So are those two, I don't want anybody to feel bad that they are concerned because there are real concerns that are real feeding issues that come up and there are real picky eaters and there are all these things feeding kids can be really tricky and if you aren't able to enjoy the moment, it doesn't mean that you're a bad parent. It just means that you have a tricky feeding situation. Like many of us do.

Laura: Yeah, thank you for that very balanced perspective. We really appreciate that. Okay, so I'm trying to think, should we go to talk about kind of unrestricted access to sweets that happens sometimes at like holidays, like we're recording this, um kind of close after the Easter and Passover holidays, would that be helpful? You think do parents need to know about those things?

Jennifer: Here is something just try to not get worked up over it. There are holidays, they will happen, your kids will have more access to sweets, then you will be able to control. Grandparents will be seeing the kids feeds or relatives behind your back. All these things are going to happen. I'd prefer to just go into it with a very realistic perspective my kid is going to eat enough sweets today that they are going to be very grumpy tonight.

But you know what tomorrow is another day and we will move on. Just like to take a really realistic perspective and not try to over-control it now do I take the opportunities to decrease their access? Sure. You know, I just didn't put that much Candy and Easter but guess what? They complained about it. I was like, well they complain that there's one jelly bean in the egg and stuff.

i don't know what they were expecting, maybe like four, I don't, I don't even know, but the reality is you know candy is a wonderful and joyful thing for kids to experience at holidays and we can allow them to choose how much to eat and that is a learning experience for them. I remember when my son was six and it was the first Halloween that he was really into the experience of candy.

Like he prior to that he just really didn't care that much. Something about six was a big shift for him and he ate so much candy and then he sat on the kitchen floor and he said, oh I think I think I ate too much candy and you know what, he taught himself that. I never said anything, he was able to internalize for himself and put it together. But a lot of candy made him feel sick and that experience is worth.

I don't know, I thought much more than if I had told him, hey, if you eat too much candy, you're going to get a stomach ache. You know your, when your kid realizes that for themselves and they can begin to understand, oh, if I eat that much, I feel sick if I eat this much, you know, it doesn't mean that your kid is never going to eat too much candy again, but it does mean that your child is on the road to being able to regulate themselves over time, right?

Laura: So all adults have times where they over-consume certain things and people-focused with healthy relationships with food, just know like, oh, I overdid it and with no guilt, no shame, no blame, no self judgment around it. That's what we're creating an opportunity for our kids to do to.

Jennifer: Absolutely. And you know what the next day, I'm always amazed when my kids eat more vegetables than usual. It's always fascinating. We don't push veggies. I, you know, I have a very like veggie positive environment at home and they're around pretty frequently, but I never forced them to eat it.

And it's always interesting to see after a big holiday where, you know, they didn't eat that many vegetables and they had a lot of candy, just like we kind of feel gross, might gravitate more towards those foods that are going to make us feel better. The kids do the same thing if you know, depending on their ability to eat a variety of foods?

Laura: Yeah, I've experienced that too. I like to put just veggies in a tray out on the kitchen counter. Usually in that time period between school and dinner, you know? But yes, I see an uptick in how much of that platter is emptied on the days after.

Okay, so that was really helpful. So what about for the families who have some picky eaters, some kids? And what is the definition of a picky eater? Because that's something that, like, I work with some families who say their kid is a picky eater and then they come to me with a list of like 50 or 60 foods that their kids will eat, you know? And then I have some families who come and say their kids a picky eater and they've got like 5 to 10 foods. And so what is the definition of a picky eater?

Jennifer: And interestingly there actually is not an agreed upon. Okay, there are a whole bunch of definitions in the literature and I think it's more of a subjective thing. Now, there are some objective things. Does your child eat less than 20 to 30 foods? Does your child have a physical problem as a result of not being able to eat a variety of foods?

Does your child not eat all of the food groups? Like are they completely unable to eat fruits and vegetables? Those three in particular are really big red flags that not only is your child a picky eater, but their ability to only eat a small amount of foods has the likelihood of having a physical or nutritional improvement on your child.

Well, then it's more of a time to get in there and start trying some new strategies because then usually do need more support if you have an extremely picky eater and that's more along the lines of what I call an extremely picky eater.

But here's the other thing. If you're going into meal to them, then it feels like a complete battle and you're pulling your hair out and you're feeling defeated and you're so frustrated and I don't care if your kid is eating 32 foods or 35 or 50, something is wrong for you and your stress levels and you need some support because it doesn't have to be like, you don't have to be have your blood pressure going up, going to the table and feeling like you're going into a war.

Laura: Even if there are some health concerns, there's still room for taking care of you in that process.

Jennifer: Oh, absolutely. I mean, the first thing I do in my better vice program, which is the program for the families of the eaters. First thing I do is work on reducing your stress because you can't do anything to help your child if you're completely stressed out.

I mean, I've been there, I live this to you know, I have a selective child and one who tends to not eat enough. So stressful. And if we can find ways to reduce our stress, we really open up just an enormous number of possibilities for ourselves and for our child.

Laura: Yeah. I think we can't be overstated that our role, our approach, the energy we bring to the table really makes a difference for kids to it really.

Jennifer: It really does. And for you too, I mean, I don't deserve to be like super, super frustrated. I mean feeding kids is Six times a day, 5, 6 times a day we got it so much always happening. So it's feeding your child is your biggest stressor, what it means you're becoming stressed to your max, You know 5, 6 times a day. I recently heard mom say 90% of my stress is due to feeding my child.

And I think that's totally accurate. So if you're feeling really stressed, you are not alone. In fact, I started feeding kids color because I was feeling super stressed about feeding a child who didn't want to eat enough and I was making these cute little lunches to get them interesting and interested in meals and I thought, you know, I can't be the only parent struggling. You are not the only there are millions of parents struggling all over the world. And then I thought, oh maybe it's just the United States saying no all over the world, all over the world.

Laura: Yeah. Oh, that's really interesting. So do you have any resources for folks who have a picky eater and they're looking at?

Jennifer: I do have a good starting place. So my friend picky Eater guide is 14 pages of help. Like understanding how do you kind of get a get full of your mealtime environment and get really clear on what is your job as a parent versus what is your child's job as the child? Because that is a huge stress reliever when you're doing your job and your child is doing their job when you're able to then work together in much healthier ways. That opens up a load of possibilities.

Laura: I love that. That's something that I have to remind myself of all the time, that there's certain parts of my kids eating, that is not my business, that you know, that is their job and no one likes to be micromanaged in their job. No one does.

Jennifer: Actually like toddlers or children. My kids have yet to grow out of the phase in which they want to be in control of their body.

Laura: Hopefully they never happen. It's human nature to want to control your body.

Jennifer: We really want to, we want to raise our kids right? We want to raise them to grow up and be able to take care of themselves and part of that is starting really early teaching them that it's their job to be in charge of the food that goes into their body and how much they eat and all that stuff. I know recently my kids were in a situation where a relative trying to pressure them to finish their meal. Just remember the look on my five year old’s face, which was, you are crazy and then he looks at me like, what's up with this person? Like, oh, that's how much she wants to eat

Laura: Yeah. Oh my gosh, You know, so the, my one daughter has always been really good at setting boundaries with people. And so she has her very loving bop sha she's polish and food is love and there's lots of pressure for everybody to eat more and more. Her parents were rushed with survivors. There's just a lot with food, there's a lot I'm there.

But she will ask my daughter if she wants more and from when the time and she was really little, she goes with the food that's on my plate is my business. I adore her boundary setting. I admire it so much. It's so good speaking though of relatives or other people's other influences in our kid’s lives.

I did have a couple of people who wanted me to ask you how to handle folks who maybe have a different perspective on how to handle food and so they are embracing kind of the kids eating color approach and it's different. It is different. It's a bit radical than what the mainstream folks are doing, how to approach that with well-meaning loved ones. And then also I've had a couple of questions about how to handle some fat-shaming that might happen and crop up in homes. And so I just was hoping we could chat about those things.

Jennifer: Sure. You know, talking with family is very, very difficult and I find so much of this comes up with partners like my partner isn't on board. My partner is really very on pressuring my child to finish their plate. You know, my in-laws, my mother, my father, my destiny. Boundary setting with family, you know, extended family is just so tricky. It's so tricky. And I don't have any one size fits all answers.

And the reason for that is this. I don't know if your mother has a mental illness. We don't know if your relative is abusive. I don't know if your relative is completely wonderful and wants to do the best and just doesn't know about new techniques. I don't know if you're reliant on living with your family or you're reliant on your aunt and uncle for childcare and if that's the case, you know, you may have to just do abide by their rules because you can't make any changes.

You know, so there's obviously, I think the best case scenario would be probably like my mom. She remembered being a mom and she had five kids and she didn't want us eating a ton of sugar, although she, you know, it was around and she loved it, but I think she remembers setting boundaries with her parents and saying no, you can't send bags of candy for every holiday.

They were just sending bags, bags and bags and she said no, can you please send this? And she told them what to instead. And so with her, we actually had a conversation, it's like, okay, how much can I send, how much candy and how much this? And she's just done a wonderful job of providing toys instead of candy.

And I find this talking with parents who are rational and reasonable and who you have a good relationship with. I don't know exactly what you want. I want you to have ice cream with her once a month, but not every single time you get together because you know, we need to have ice cream too and not in a judgmental way, but say this is best for my daughter. Can you please take her out for ice cream once a month. And the other times can you please go to this part? Because I know she loves it and I know she really appreciate some time with you.

Laura: Yeah. So giving them options of what they can do.

Jennifer: Exactly what they want because they really want your child to adore them just fine and they want to do whatever they want, right? So if you just kind of give them suggestions. Oh, they love going to get a balloon. Oh they love going to the special part of the slide. Oh, they love it when you bring the dog over. Tell them how your child can adore them without the extra candy. And I think that's the best case scenario right now. I have other relatives, but I have to have that straightforward conversation with.

In fact, bringing it up with them would actually come back to bite me. It would mean that other people I know they would then feed my kid more candy just to make me mean, right hoof, right? Not all of us have wonderful relationships with all the people around us and we just have to be very aware. So that's what I do with that person and don't ever say no because I know that that would result in a bad impact for my kids and myself. I don't say, oh you can't, I just say I want you to tell me before you do it right?

Because that's that's the most important thing for me, reducing harm is don't go behind my back because that's not good for my kids, but I want you to be really forthright with what you're going to do and I always say yes because I know that is going to lead to better outcome. So we have to like really look at who we're dealing with and how we’re talking when we're dealing those relationships around us because we can be flexible. We can be flexible with how much candy our kids can eat, but sometimes we have to focus on their safety first.

Sometimes we have to focus on child care and being able to keep our jobs. Sometimes we have to focus on the relationship. And having extra candy is not going to kill them, it is not. And sometimes there is much more important things for us to focus on for the overall safety and benefit of the family. So we have to go in with some flexibility and with some grace for those other people for ourselves. We just have to kind of walk that messy, gray area of relationships, you know.

Laura: Yeah, that was such a beautiful kind of crash course in balanced boundary setting with family. Thank you for that. And I think that that applies to you know, again we're talking about food, but really food is kind of this microcosm of all the things that we deal with as parents and it applies to gifts at birthdays and all sorts of things that you need to set boundaries with so?

Jennifer: Right it's true, there's so much food, you know, it can be culture, it can be politics, it can be are we preparing for ourselves, it can be our way of hurting other people, you know so much is wrapped up in food. I agree with you, it is just a microcosm of so many other things.

Laura: Yeah. And if we really want our kids to just have a simple relationship with food, then sometimes we have to be realistic about who we're dealing with and how to where our power is in our overarching goal is for our kids to have a healthy simple relationship with food.

Jennifer: The other thing to remember is parents modeling the way that they want their kids to eat is probably the most powerful thing that you can do. Now. It realized some parents are picky eaters themselves and they can't always model everything. They have allergies. That's okay. You can eat the way that you want your child to eat.

That is going to have more of an impact on them than what they see grandma and grandpa eating then what they see, you know? And so your aunts or uncle is eating obviously what those other people eating are going to have an influence on your child, but you, as the parents, you are going to have the biggest influence on your life.

Laura: I so agree. I so agree. Okay. I just wanted to ask one more question, I feel I want to be respectful of your time. So we've been talking about food a lot and having a healthy relationship with food and I think that food gets really our relationship with food gets really distorted when we're embedded in a culture that prioritizes thinness and prioritizes dieting and I know that I've had to have conversations with the other adults in my kid's life around negative self talk about their bodies and diet talk.

And so I was just curious if you have any recommendations for families on those conversations or even if like we can't control what other people say. How do we reframe it for our kids or help our kids make sense of maybe what grandma said when she was over.

Jennifer: Right, so tricky again. Yes, so difficult. So, first off, as a parent again, you're gonna have the biggest impact on your child, choosing to not talk about your body and your weight around your child is extremely important. The American Academy of Pediatrics has recommended that there be no weight talk, especially around older kids starts young too. We now have three year old girls dieting three.

I mean that's like just out of toddlerhood and they're dieting and it's not like 1-3 year old is dieting. This is a thing now that's being measured and observed. Three year olds are saying, oh, I need to lose weight, Oh right there just mimicking us. They're just internalizing what they're seeing around them.

So the more that you cannot talk about your weight and not say negative things about your body around your child, the more powerful that is because again, you're going to have the biggest impact on your child and if you I've been talking negatively, switch it up. You know, start talking to, you know, not the person who's going to say you're an adult, you should never go on a diet. I don't care. Like if you're an adult, you can do whatever you want. No, I just believe that it's your body. You do what you want.

Now I could make evidence-based recommendations which actually wouldn't really include, we lost diet based on the evidences created. But you know, you're an adult, you're free to do whatever you want. But if you are going to choose to try to lose weight around your child, you really, really, really need to come up with a new way to talk about that.

I just wish for every child that they can be in a home where families talk about their bodies being strong. Oh, I'm I'm lifting weights so that my body can be strong. I want to be able to pick you up and throw you up in the air. I want to be able to run around the block and feel good. I want to be able to be strong and due to, you know, vacuum the house more quickly.

There's so many ways that we can talk about our body being healthy or let's say you have a health condition, let's say you have high cholesterol and you're therefore going on a medical diet to try to, to feel that you can actually talk about that with your child.

You can say, oh, I have high cholesterol, this is what that means. I'm okay, but also that to take care of that body, that means to take care of my body. I need to change the way that I'm eating. And you know, that means I'm gonna start eating more soluble fiber. Let's talk about soluble fiber. You can go down the rabbit hole as far as you want. But I think we need to change the conversations with our kids from size, which is something that most people cannot control. And that doesn't necessarily mean that someone is unhealthy. We need to change that conversation away from size and really to help.

I mean, if you have diabetes and yes, I would highly encourage you to learn about taking care of your body and that is going to change the way that you eat. If you have a heart condition, if you have high cholesterol, if you have an eating disorder, if you have absolutely anything, there is going to be a way for you to take care of your body that may include what you eat and it's okay to talk to your child about that, you know,

Laura: Yeah and we can do that without moralizing or judging food categories.

Jennifer: Absolutely, Absolutely. Now my kids know that I'm allergic to salmon right, Which is a really poor food to be allergic to if you're a dietician because dieticians love salmon, you know, I'm allergic to it. My allergist recommended that I not eat it and therefore I don't eat it.

So they actually, they know that, but they know that their bodies are not allergic to salmon and therefore they can eat it. So I think we can introduce our kids to nuance. You know, some foods are good for you. Some foods are good for me. Some foods are bad for me. Some foods are bad for you. Actually understand that kind of nuance early on. What they cannot understand is sugar is bad. Mcdonald's is bending that they, you know, they cannot understand because before they go to their friend of preschool and this has happened, I would guess most preschool teachers have a story like this.

They go to their friend and say, oh, your mom is poisoning you because you have candy at your lunch. Oh, that's what relationships are ruined, that kid feels horrible. It's so much judgment when we categorize foods, just say this is them. We didn't franchise so many people. I mean, there are extreme picky eaters out there, they have 5 to 10 foods that they can eat and then they go to school and the school has them do a sorting activity that says, you know, these foods are good for you.

These foods are bad for you and beyond that some of that child-safe food during the bad category and now because they had an anxiety-based eating issue. Now they can't eat one of their safe foods and that literally puts them at nutritional risk and risk of, we're looking bad consequences, all the best of intentions.

But when we categorize foods, we do not understand what we're doing. Take a mom who are a family right times, they are going to the food pantry, they are using their snap benefits, they're doing all these things very tight budget, they're going to put what they can afford on their child's plate and if their friend comes over it's like, oh, that's junk food.

Guess what? They have just judged that family in an unfair, inaccurate way. We can teach our kids to judge other people for what we mean. And we can also teach our kids have curiosity and understanding that all foods are good, even if all foods are not good for our family. All foods have a purpose and all foods are good and I'm gonna put my money behind that. I will go as far as I can teaching my kids to never say somebody else's food is bad.

Laura: Yes, it's so important to, to understand that kids, especially kids in the six and under range are involved in categorizing and labeling things that that's part of what their brain is doing right now. And so they're very sensitive to what we label things as it becomes very firmly cemented in the neural structure of their brains. It's very hard to change what their brain is doing right then. Right, they’re forming the structure of their brain and how things are categorized and labels is a big piece of that too.

Jennifer: The real challenge is, okay, let's say you really believe that you want your child to think that sugar is bad. I don't judge you or you know whoever for thinking that there are so many messages out there and there's so much diet culture out there and there's extreme eating pattern culture out there, right? We're constantly hearing all kinds of messages.

The problem is what happens when your child has to eat a food with sugar in it? They go over to a friend's house, they are in a situation where they don't have access to food and all the food that they have access to has sugar in it. All of a sudden your chances in a situation or maybe they eat it because it tastes good and they're in a situation where they like, does this make me bad because this is a bad, What does this mean for me now that I'm eating a food that's poisonous, now that I'm eating a food that is bad for me? What does that mean?

I think there is a real internalization of these labels foods onto kids themselves when they're younger and then you bring in this whole moral component to eating and that brings an emotional component to eating. Now you've really complicated that child's relationship with food. Again, don't do any parent for doing this because we are just awash in diet culture and food culture, it is everywhere.

And if at the same time, if you think you can raise your child even without getting them exposed to diet culture, even that is impossible because you gotta, you know the family dinner and everybody's like, oh I lost this much on my latest diet nights of this and and you know, so we do the best we can and then our kids go to preschool and they hear all kinds of crazy stuff there and then they go to school and then they’re hearing crazier stuff.

I think we just want to focus on what you can control at home and what is the best I can do. Yes, I'm definitely going to make a mistake because I didn't grow up with this stuff and that's okay. I mean the parent who doesn't make a mistake, good luck. You will, you will have no, are they were how to relate to you. So yeah, we're always making these mistakes. But I think we can, we can work on it. We can work on having these conversations where we learn about what foods do in your body and teach them to our kids.

You know, one of my kids, he went to he went to school one day and he had, I think he had a small piece of chocolate in his lunch or maybe a couple of chocolate chips in his muffin and the kid said to him, chocolates unhealthy. And my son came back, he was six and he said, you know, so and so said chocolates unhealthy.

But it just does a few things in your body, right? And what he was referring to is a conversation that we had had, where, you know, some foods do a lot of things in your body and some foods do just a few things in your body. Doesn't mean you're being that it just means that they're different. Broccoli, it categorically does just an extraordinarily large number of things in your body that are helpful, Right?

Piece of candy largely does one thing in your body. And that is to give you a quick shot of energy. That's it. And that's how we talk about it. It doesn't have to be wrong to eat something that just gives you a quick shot of energy. What's not wrong? It just is. It also isn't morally superior to eat broccoli, which doesn't give you a quick shot of energy, but does do a whole host of other wonderful, wonderful things in your body.

People draw attention to the fact that foods are different, but they do different things in our body. And as they get older, we can start to slowly introduce things like, well that quick shot of energy is gone. So you notice that your brother is crying on the floor over there.

That's because he he decided to only eat his candy of lunch and he didn't have any protein in fact to keep him going, right? Draw these opportunities come up. We can draw the connections of how foods work in our volume. We can absolutely do that without judging and without saying therefore you are wrong or therefore you are bad.

Laura: Yeah, I love this. I love how you're bringing this nuance and curiosity so that kids can have a really like, I think that that's always been my goal for my kids is that I want them to have a very uncomplicated and very curious relationship with food. They get to just play and see what feels good.

You know, having done this for years with my girls, they are so good at listening to their bodies. If I have just two more pieces of candy, I think my tummy is going to hurt so I'm going to stop now. You know, I had it too much and it hurts and I won't do that again or you know like my tummy feels a little sick. I think I'm gonna go get some broccoli out of the fridge. You know, just they do it. The approach that you teach is just so wonderful and I've benefited from it so much and from this conversation, thank you so much for your time.

Jennifer: Your dear Welcome. Yeah, my pleasure to help parents and to talk about this stuff. I mean I'm so passionate about it. Like any opportunity I always have to like kind of like, you know, turn the flow down because otherwise it can be like a fire hose.

Laura: No, it's so good. We are so passionate here and I love it when folks come on and talk passionately about their topic. It's, I really, really appreciate your time and your expertise here. So everybody is listening, make sure you go and follow Jennifer. You probably are with her. Just amazing Instagram account.

But I really, really, oh and I'll put the link to your picky eater guide in the show notes. So has there fore you everybody who needs it. But I really, really appreciate the time that you took out of your day to talk about these topics with us.

Jennifer: Absolutely, and it's great to be here. Thank you so much.

And if you're listening, grab ish green shot and tag me on instagram so that I can give you a shout out um and definitely go follow me on instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too.

December 07, 2021

Episode 92: How to Use Logical Consequences with Wendy Snyder

December 07, 2021/ Laura Froyen

In this week's episodes on The Balanced Parent Podcast, we are going to talk about getting into a healthy mindset with two of the biggest issues parents face: Discipline and Food!

For the first episode, I’m bringing in a friend and a colleague, Wendy Snyder of the Fresh Start Family Podcast. She is a Positive Parenting educator, family coach, and advocate. She is also certified in Redirecting Children's Behavior & The Joy of Parenting Program.

Here is a summary of our discussion:

Ways to tell we slipped into the punishment mindset

Firm boundaries and good limits (without punitive measures)
Logical consequences that work and connect us to our child
Natural consequence vs. logical consequence
Tips in communicating our change of parenting style (and apologizing for the past)

To know more about logical consequences, follow Wendy on social media and visit her website.

Instagram: @freshstartwendy

Facebook: Fresh Start Family

Website: www.freshstartfamilyonline.com

TRANSCRIPT

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level--all delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this week's episode of the Balanced Parent Podcast we're going to be talking about a topic that I think you're really going to love. It's one that I get asked about a lot. So we're going to be talking about how to move away from a punishment mindset and embrace more respectful, related and reasonable discipline.

So I think there's a big misconception that you know respectful, positive parenting is permissive and it is not and so we're going to bust that myth today and help you figure out how to actually have limits and boundaries that are respectful and empathetic and compassionate and that work for your family.

And to help me have that conversation I'm bringing in a guest and colleague, Wendy, Snyder of the Fresh Start Family Podcast and so we're going to have this conversation. I'm really excited to have her here Wendy, welcome to the Balanced Parent Podcast and why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Wendy: Thank you, Thank you so much for having me Laura, it's just so great to meet. I've admired your work for a long time and I'm just really excited to be here. So yes, I'm Wendy Snyder, I'm the founder of Fresh Start Family. We are a digital education company where we help families all over the world expand their parenting toolkit, I like to say.

So they are truly a choice with how they raise their young little human souls and they feel confident in a way that they can do it with confidence and with firm kindness. Connection, confidence, and with firm kindness. So really finding that middle ground between that too firm and too kind, which really too kind never exist, but you know the permissive side of things and doing things like too heavy handed.

So a lot of parents have trouble finding that middle ground, so that's what we specialize in. And I just love being an educator of this work and as you mentioned, I also have a podcast called the Fresh Start Family Show.

So yeah, it's my jam to encourage families and I love it. I just, I love love, love being able to expand our parenting toolkit so we can really do things by choice instead of just relying on a lot of the hand me down parenting tactics that most of us inherited, right?

Laura: Yeah. Okay, so let's jump in right there because I think lots of us came up in families where more punitive punishment minded measures were used on us and we know we don't really want to do that. We want to do something different with our own families.

So we don't have a lot of models for what that is and it's easy to slip back into it. The thinking like, well they need to learn a lesson here. So what is a punishment mindset? Just kind of what and how can we tell if we've slipped into it?

Wendy: Yes, Well it is so common and it is so I don't like to use the word heart. I've actually taken the word hard out of my language and it's been so fun over the last year to purposely replace it with other words, but it is such a journey to replace a punishment mindset with a compassionate, disciplined mindset and gosh.

I mean you empower your community and your listeners so much with the ability to have grace on yourself and to be able to give yourself some time, right? Because it can take awhile. It's such a knee jerk reaction type of thing because I think a lot of it just has to do with limiting beliefs we believed from a very young age and it's kind of this idea that where do we get the notion that in order to make children behave better, we must first make them feel worse. But many of us who grew up, you know, with parents who loved us so much and they just didn't have more tools in their tool belt.

So they really thought that you, you do have to make a child feel worse in order to make them behave better. And so we kind of started adapting and thinking that was the way from an early age too. So then we become adults and realize, gosh, we do have another option and we don't want to believe in that myth. We don't want to have that, that scarcity thought or whatever it is and it can be really a journey to shift out of it.

So a punishment mindset to me is the idea of thinking that a child has to pay the price or that there has to be some type of pain or shame inflicted in order for them to really learn the lesson. And I like to think of punishment is really rooted in the past. So if you were to just do a quick google punishment comes up with words like retribution, making sure the price is paid or someone is like doing their time, things like that. Whereas when we shift into discipline, it's more future based.

So punishment is about the past, in my opinion and discipline is about the future and looking at it, Yeah, What do you want to build for your kids instead of teaching them or telling them what they did wrong? It's like, here's what we want for you and here's how you do it. So instead of like the stop it, which is the punishment mindset, it's the how to, which is the discipline mindset.

Laura: Oh, that's beautiful. So I don't know about you but I feel like I've seen a lot, you know in my own growth and work and in the families that I work with as they are releasing a punishment mindset that they also have to release a control and obedience mindset. Have you seen that too?

Wendy: Heck yes, yes. The idea like that there needs to be instant obedience, right? That's something that I think Jax is up so much as humans because in my work, it's like, you know, I see mistakes as opportunities to learn. A lot of times that is the best way we learn as human beings, as kids, as business owners, right?

I mean I love your thing you did the other day on social where you were talking about the the like the encouraging voice that we all have inside and then the discouraging voice inside and that's like comes up with me all the time in business, I'll make a mistake or something and right away it will be like, oh my gosh, you're such an idiot, why did you do that? That was a waste of money or you did that wrong and you have to retrain yourself to be able to listen to the other side, which is, this is just an opportunity to learn mistakes are great chances for that.

And a lot of human beings, especially kids they learn by doing, especially are kinesthetic kids who are always the ones who are moving, jumping, kicking, hitting like all those things they actually learn by doing. To become more comfortable with the idea of a failure so to speak or a mistake not being the end of the world, but just an opportunity to redirect a child teach an important life lesson show unconditional love and you can do all that by holding strong boundaries.

Laura: I think that that's the thing that a lot of people have difficulty believing when they're new to this world. Can you dig into that a little bit? So how can you have firm boundaries and good limits and all at the same time not use punitive measures like, “What does it actually look like in practice?”.

Wendy: Yes. So one of my favorite things that I teach my students inside of my bonfire support program is what I call like a Cookie Formula Sandwich. I don't know why, but I picture a cookie with like icing in the middle. That was my favorite cookie when I was little from the mall, I grew up in on the east coast in Maryland. But I like to say you know the boundaries hug it. So it's like we definitely need to be firm with our kids.

They need to see us with confidence around our boundaries and our limits and that's a whole journey in itself, right to have that confidence. But when you show up with confidence of like, “I am not okay with you hitting your sister.”. Your shoulders are back, you are firm, you are confident that in our home we do not hit, we do not use our hands to solve problems and then you the middle of the little cookie sandwiches connection and mentorship.

So it's like it's that feeding into that child's belonging, that sense of belonging or that need to belong which is you're not an alien. I can see why you're so mad. I know your sister sometimes it's in your stuff. I get you you're not alone and here's how I'm going to mentor you and you're gonna learn, you need to learn, I will help you learn how to express what you want or share how you're feeling with your sister or tell her to get back out of your room, I will be there with you connection and mentorship and then it's and I will not allow you to hit your sister.

So we all need to take a calming break but that's kind of an idea of like what the approach looks like. It's like firmness but that its connection and it's teaching combined with a lot of self regulation and calming which is what I find for my parents, the parents I work with, that's a huge part of where we spend our time is just the parents developing the self regulation to be able to show up in that capacity in the first part but then we come in with like what are the actual tools and that's what we teach the four R's which is when it comes to logical consequences which is part of what we teach inside of our compassionate discipline toolkit we like to call it.

The four R’s is when you use you know a strategy or a tool with a kid when it comes to disciplining you want to make sure it's related, it's respectful, it teaches responsibility and it's reasonable. So a lot of parents like right away you'll know if you're in a punishment mindset if it has nothing to do with it. So big sister hits little sister and right away they get their ipad taken away like what does that mean?

That's just about control, that's just about feeling like in order to feel powerful, you have to dominate over your kids or there's a whole bunch behind it, but that's actually not going to teach a child self regulation around her hands to herself when she's PO-ed at her sister. So that's just one example within there we have a few different favorites. Role plays is one of my favorites with kids actually like sitting down especially with littles and having puppets or with my little guy, used to be matchbox cars.

Like if you got in trouble for talking in class, we'd line up the matchbox cars and we practice all right. So when you're at an assembly or so and so we actually a lot of times do it the way he got in trouble. And I'd ask him, how did you feel? What did the teacher say? Like, you know, were you embarrassed? What do you want to do tomorrow? Like how do you want, how do you want the day to go and then you redo it with the puppets or the role plays or the legos because kids learn so well through play. They love play.

So that's one idea and then redos as one of my student’s little girl called it rewinds where you actually like stop your kids and you're like, whoa, I'm not okay with you saying that to me. So let's back up and we're going to try that again. Again, connection, empathy, firm boundaries. I love you and I don't think you really meant to say you hate me. I think what you meant to say is you feel really mad right now or you feel hurt.

So I'm gonna give you an opportunity to try that again. We're gonna do a redo and and in the middle you might need to go do some self calming because not everybody can learn when they're in like a freak out mode but redos are spectacular for leaving new imprints on the brain. So instead of dropping your kids off for school and everyone's like mad at one another and you're like get out, we'll talk about this later.

You do a quick redo and they walk into their day with a fresh imprint on their brain with you asking for what you want and showing what you want. Those are just two examples of what logical consequences that are firm and kind can look like.

Laura: Yeah, I love those. And those are really careful teaching moments too. I think that logical consequences I think that the related and the reasonable peace and the respectful piece, what was the other R? Sorry. Related, reasonable, respectful

Wendy: teaches responsibility

Laura: And responsibility. Yeah. So I mean like I'm thinking about, you know for younger kids who like if a mom or dad finds their kid drawing on the wall, you know a great logical consequences that crayons get put up high until mom can actively supervise like that's a beautiful logical consequence.

Wendy: Yes. And you frame it as we're taking a break, we're going to take a break until we develop the skill set around this and you take responsibility for not having the time to teach it yet, right? Like that's a big thing I love to empower parents with is like the responsibility portion. Is it? I know it sure seems like it, but it's really not all their fault a lot of time.

Yeah, maybe they're modeled it or we just haven't taken the time to like teach them the self control lesson and sometimes they just are curious and they mess up, but I like that language of, let's, we're going to take a break. Not all right, that's it you're done no more crowns for you--crayons. I said crowns.

Laura: that's totally fine. I agree so much and I love that framing the responsibility, like recognizing where our responsibility lies. Like if we don't want permanent marker on our floors, we don't leave permanent marker accessible. And you know, I mean in those like, so there's lots of different ways to stay a limit around those things, but just saying like, oh! I see you're having a lot of fun drawing with those crayons, I can't let you draw on the wall and I can't supervise you right now.

So I'm gonna put the crayons away just temporarily until I can be with you and then there's also this piece of like recognizing the underlying need that they are communicating to you that drawing vertically like while you're standing. And those big arm movements on a wall, that is a thing that kids need to do. That's a gross motor movement that they need access to. So there's lots of ways that kids can get that without messing up your paint job on your wall. Although not all parents care about those things too.

And that's the other thing like I think is so important is that we get to choose what our limits are. Not all parents care about art on the walls or they might, you might redirect a kid to be like this. You can't draw on your walls, the walls in the living room if you need to draw on walls then go into your bedroom. You know like those are some parents are fine with those things. I guess we get to choose our boundaries and our limits.

Wendy: Yeah. And the drawing on the wall is a great example. I mean we could go like so deep into this, I love this subject so much but another logical consequence is that they have to clean it up, they have to help you know, so they figure out, you know, they might like crayons for me that I love those magic erasers that you know maybe they have to do a few jobs around the house and they have to save up a little bit of money to contribute to the $2 purchase the next time you go to the grocery store of the magic erasers which work really well on crayons and then they help you, they help you clean up.

But lot like again it's it's related and they're actually learning the responsibility piece. So if you make a mess you clean it up. It's just so clean when you're teaching your kids that way. And it's such a journey to get out of the freak out point because a lot of times like I have clients who they've been, they've been working with me for a long time and they'll still, you know, eight months later be like, what is this piece of me that just when I yell or when I see the crayons around the wall.

It's like I feel like I have to make sure they know how upset I am and it's just something we get to shake overtime if we're willing because you can let a child know that you're not happy and you don't need to scare or intimidate them or feel like you have to create an unsafe environment in your home.

Laura: Right. And teaching the healthy boundary of emotional responsibility that we're responsible for our own emotions when this. “Yes, I'm frustrated and it's my job to take care of it. It's not your job to fix that for me”. So important. Yeah. Okay.

So something that I see a lot and I've never been able been able to really have this conversation on the podcast before, but I see people mix up natural consequences and logical consequences. Can we just clear the air a little bit on those? Do you have a way that you teach parents the difference between a natural consequence and the logical consequence?

Wendy: Yes. So natural consequence is when you don't have to intervene and life does the trick, which is always going to be the best way. So whenever we can, so this is when we resist the helicopter parenting and we actually like, we always say, you don't want your child to get hurt for sure.

And like if you've asked them to put on their shoes 50,000 times to scooter and they're finally comes a time when they stub their toe a little bit, that stubbing of the toe is actually going to teach them way more than your nagging threatening bribing and all the things to put the shoes on. So yeah, so, natural consequences again is always our first go to if we can, but you have to have the courage to allow your children to fail and then not rub it in their face. So it looks like instead of saying, well, see I told you that's what happens, that's what happens when you mess with your brother.

That's what happens when you pull the dog's tail? No, I told you so it has to be like, ah the dog just bit, you looks like it hurt. What did you learn from that? And I just actually wrote about this yesterday on instagram like what different choice can you make tomorrow? Not a better choice but a different choice, like, what different choice can you make tomorrow so you don't get bit by the dog? You know, just about last week in our membership we had a real life example of a perfect natural consequence that was intense but it was good.

One little boy whose whose family is really diligently working hard to end painful generational cycles in their home. But they have reactivity going on and it is deep and this little guy, man, what a journey he's on. I love this kid so much, but he's eight now and he was at the pool and they were his friends were like playing pretend dunk, you know, I hate that game in the pool.

And he got so mad that he came out of the pool and he said F you to one of his friends and later like he went to knock on the door the next day to play and the mom was like you can't play with my kid. So the mom didn't have to do anything even though it didn't didn't quite unroll as cleanly as it should’ve because it became a pretty dramatic in their home. But that is an example of a natural consequence because your child messes up and he's not allowed to play with another little boy for a while and you get to support him through those really intense feelings and help him learn the self regulation skills.

So when he gets angry at someone trying to dunk him, which please child do get angry, don't let someone act like act like they're gonna drown you for fun. Speak up for yourself and let me teach you how to do it in a way where you're not going to lose friends over it, but mom doesn't have to intervene.

You don't have to double down on the--whereas logical consequences is when you do need to step in and you're supporting your child to learn the lesson because life is not necessarily going to be able to do it just instantly.

Laura: Yeah, I think that's something that's so important. And so you know, important I guess to highlight and to understand is that there's not always a logical consequence available for every scenario. There's not always a logical consequence that we're willing to tolerate. Like the or sorry, a natural consequence that we're willing to tolerate.

Like the natural consequence of a kid consistently running out into traffic is that that kid is going to get hurt. We could not let that happen. The logical consequence is that if you've got a runner, that runner is holding hands, that runner is strapped into a stroller, that runner is strapped on your body. You know, there's, those are the logical consequences there, you know, and then there's also natural consequences that take too long for young brains to remember and tie together, you know,

Wendy: Like the cavity.

Laura: Yes, a cavity. Exactly. My favorite example of a natural consequence in my house--we used to do bedtime snacks with my little ones as they were weaning from nursing. And so my youngest was about to, she just finished weaning and she was having a banana. Her bedtime snack most nights she was eating a banana we would be reading, should eat the banana and she just drop it off the side of the chair.

And every night, you know, it was a situation of like we can't just throw the banana on the floor, let's pick it up, let's throw it into the trash. You know, every night looks the good logical consequences. But one night I forgot that she had done it. She ate it quickly. We read a long story, I forgot that it was on the floor and we have hardwood floors. And so she popped up to go brush your teeth running out boom foot on the banana.

And it was like watching a cartoon, it was the whole like, you know, and I would never, it was never, it wasn't on purpose. It was a complete accident. Yeah. That child has never, ever forgotten to throw away any trash ever. You know, and I was four years ago, she still like whenever she finishes anything up, she hops into the trash, it goes, she's never forgotten it ever.

Wendy: It's such a beautiful example Laura because as parents, we have so much power whether that turns into like that's what happens when you make a mistake, that's what happens to you. And lots of us got that message when we were young, right? And it's like you go up to an adult and you're wondering why, like it's so hard to take risk in your business or with life for a conversation and you're like just the fear gets instilled young from like you better not mess up.

You know, when you're when you have this beautiful knowledge that we have access to today and you realize that you can just come beside a child and say, gosh, that looks like it was hard for you. What kind of different decision can you make tomorrow because you've got this and let me help you take care of you. What do you need to take care of yourself? Do you need an ice pack for your head? Thank God you didn't break a bone. I mean it's beautiful.

Laura: And like, I don't even know that it even has to be that overt even for some kids. Some kids do need help making those conclusions, but for some kids it just is a wow, that was scary qhat happened? Like I slipped mama Yeah, you slept, you slipped on the banana peel, I throw it away like and that's it just it like yeah.

I get up and throw it away and it was over, you know, and it doesn't have to be complicated and I think one of the things that really these natural consequences help us do is to do take heaviness and weight out of our relationship that we don't have our relationship does not have to bear the brunt of like negative learning.

Right? So the example from your community, her that child got to experience compassion and support from their parent. Their relationship did not need the burden of an extra punishment or an extra, you know, you said that word, we're losing screen time like they didn't that relationship didn't need any extra burden at that point in time.

Wendy: It didn't and in my experience that's what allows children to actually learn it because when you bring in the extra double dose shame get introduced and as soon as shame gets introduced, it freezes us as human beings and then you have whether it's a child or a parent, they're not able to make a different decision tomorrow because they're stuck in shame. Like what's wrong with me?

I'm so stupid, people hate me, No one likes me and it just like jacks up our system. So that family is a perfect example of like they are not going to give up, they didn't quite nail it on the head that day. They turned into a big power struggle and all these things and I'm so passionate about coming back and supporting families and saying, yeah, you can when your child makes a big mistake out in the world and there's a possibility the natural consequence might be there.

You can support them and you can help them through like the really intense emotions they might have around it because this little boy had like a flipped out about it and he wanted his mom to like go over there and make them play with him. I mean, he's really working hard to develop his self regulation skills just like his mom and dad are.

It's just some kids can like, you know, there's big emotions involved and I think the more practice you have, you can support them because it's not always so pretty and in a box of like, you know, a lot of times there's a lot of emotions involved and there's they're learning, they're still learning, but the more we can come beside them and make it about, what are they learning? We're here to support them. And that's that's how it works, is like really can be clean.

Laura: Yeah. And it doesn't have to be perfect. I think that that's something I just want to say like over and over again, you are allowed to be human, You're allowed to screw it up. It's never too late to walk something back to like there are plenty of times where I catch myself three minutes too late in a punitive mindset too, right? I'm like, Oh man, you know what that was a threat. I'm sorry. That's not what I want to do with you girls.

Let's give me a second. Okay, all right. This is what we're going to do. We're not going to do that. We're not going to, you know, that didn't feel good, that didn't feel good to you. It didn't feel good to me. That's not how I want to show up with you guys. It's never too late and it's never done.

Especially like you are saying some of your families are in doing big multi generational patterns. They're really doing a lot of healing for, not just for themselves or for their immediate family but for their entire lineage. A lot of healing happens in parenting and I think we've got to be really patient with ourselves.

Wendy: Yes. I mean it's literally like I have a tendency to get really intense about it, but I don't care. I mean when parents step into this and like really show up, it just lights me up because it is like big stuff. I just had my neighbor yesterday. She lost her best friend three years ago to a domestic abuse situation where both of them lost their life.

The husband came in and took her life and then took his own and I was just thinking about like how many families are never able to break that rage cycle-- that rage, right? Like that's just one example of like when a family shows up to do things different, especially when it comes to punishment. Like it's like literally changing the world.

I just think of like that same family of like this little boy has experienced really intense rage in his life and so has his parents and I just get to support them. We all get just like you and I are, it's like to support families who are like, I'm going to change this, like the buck stops here, like we're going to learn what to do with anger and we're going to learn how to process it effectively.

We're going to be in this together, we're never going to give up on one another and sometimes it's going to be really messy and we're going to keep starting fresh as many times as we need to, we can do this, we're together and we're just gonna keep learning.

But I just that story like was like, man, there's a lot of people who don't get that opportunity so what a blessing it is when you do hear this message and you do say yes and you do say yeah, I've got some stuff going on that I want to change. I don't want to react to my kids anymore like that.

Laura: It's so brave. I don't know about you, but I feel constantly just, so just in awe of the parents I get to work with you. They're so brave, they're so brave, so willing to look at themselves, even when it's hard, you know man, I just uh we're so lucky. Sorry listeners. I think you're amazing. We're just gushing for a second about how wonderful you are. My dear, beautiful listeners.

Wendy: Yes, I agree, Laura, it's just such an honor right to empower families and support them.

Laura: And I think about this like we're doing this to like, I think that it's so important. I don't know for me, it's really important that my community know that just because I teach this does not mean I get it right all the 100% of the time, you know, that's why compassion for yourself is just as important as compassion for your kids.

Wendy: Yeah, me too. I mean every time I mess up I'm like dang it, I got to go till the bonfire. Like just last week I came into my weekly support group and I was like, so I slammed the door today and like, and I like hit the gas, like aggressively in my sequoia after the kids were like fighting and we didn't get juice and that was more of a comical one. I can like laugh at myself now and I just always share with people.

But I mean I've written articles about how I've left bruises on my little boy's arm once and it still to this day, never like never feels good to tell you, keep telling people that, but it's important that I wrote about it and people were like, thank you and that was my easy going one. All my stories are about my strong-willed, beautiful little girl who's 13 now.

And Holy smokes like I have another article on the night I threw a book at her. Thank God it was soft cover and she did not get hurt, but yeah, I think that's so important when you are spending time with an educator or an encourager is that I just think it helps people when they realize you don't have to be perfect.

Everyone's on a journey and everyone has different things are working on, but you just have to have the bravery and the courage to show up and you get to decide what needs to change in your life. Painful generational cycles you want to break because it's not always about squeezing wrist too tight or shaming kids.

Like sometimes it's about just never being able to speak up for yourself. Like your mom never could or to never like in our home, peaceful conflict resolution did not exist. Like there were big blowups, there were big fights and then the next morning it was like, hi do you want syrup on your pancakes and it was like, no one's going to talk about this? Like, that to me is another generational cycle.

You know, it's like, well we can do it differently with our kids. We can have a rough moment and then take responsibility show up with humility, do redos, repair relationships, make amends and then do the work that we need to do to make a different choice tomorrow and then that trickles down to the next generation and the next generation.

Laura: Absolutely. Can I ask you a quick question about, I do get asked a lot from families who have, you know, are moving away from punitive measures, are moving away from hitting or spanking or timeouts, you know, they're yelling, they're stepping into more respectful and compassionate parenting.

And one of their big questions is how do I explain the changes that I'm making to my kids and how do I apologize for the past? How do I make it right?

Wendy: Yeah.

Laura: You have anything for those families?

Wendy: Yes, you make it right by keep showing up with an open heart to learn and grow and I believe that kids learn just as much from what we get so called right then like, so like just as much from the things we do that we then change and take a responsibility for as like the times when we're like, oh we nailed it or we always set that limit and followed through with respect or whatever.

So what you're teaching a small human when you say, hey look, I want to show you where I messed up and how I realized I'm not okay with that and I'm taking responsibility and I'm actually possibly even dropping to my knees and I'm telling you that like I'm going to change, I'm showing up. This is what was done to me in my home and I'm not gonna do it anymore. Thank God I found a new teacher and I want to introduce you to her.

This is Miss Laura or this is Miss Wendy. I listen to them every week and I spend time with them and they're teaching me how I'm going to teach you without hitting you and so I need your help and we're going to learn together because I believe we are learning together. Like I always say to families that our kids are often our greatest teachers. My daughter has been my greatest teacher in life, one of them, and we're learning this together and it's gonna be amazing.

So that's kind of how I encourage people to show up. Show them the books you're reading, show them the courses you've invested in, show them how to push play on the podcast when you put your earbuds in calm air buds. My kids are like “Mom, they’re airpods”, but like show them like, this is Mrs Laura's face, this is who I listen to each week, she's helping me love myself, even though I've made mistakes with you in the past.

But that teaches a child so much. It's more about the like you're not damaged goods just because you spent five years spanking your kid. Like it's so much more important that you show your child what it looks like to learn a new way and pivot and be willing to do that. So those are some thoughts about that.

But the thing is, parents need to know is that sometimes it does, it can get tricky and when you're moving out of it, because if a child has been used to external control methods and they haven't been controlled themselves a lot of times, they will start like either kind of freaking out a little bit and pushing pushing pushing even harder to get you to have that response because they're used to it. It's like an unhealthy dance that as soon as you break away from the dance, they're like, wait a second, you're supposed to now come in and yell at me and then you're supposed to threaten me.

And then if I don't listen, you're gonna make me listen by smacking me or whatever. And when you say, no, we're not doing that anymore. I refuse. I have a podcast episode called The Old Way is Dead and it's like, I believe parents, you have to look at it is like it's just no longer an option. It's 100% out. It can be tricky.

And sometimes kids will flare up a little bit more just to keep pushing and testing and you have to remain, stay the course and then with support and then you come out of it just so strong. So just know that families that you know, it's important that you have a support system.

Laura: Absolutely. I think something you alluded too much earlier that I feel like it's a good time to circle back to it. What about that self regulation piece? So if we grew up in homes where we were obedience punishment control was used on us, we likely didn't have a lot of opportunity to develop our own self regulation, right?

And so now we're giving kids the opportunity to develop those things by leaving those methods behind, but we also have ourselves to look after. And so do you have any recommendations for parents who are looking to gain those skills as well. So that they can get the space to parent their kids differently?

Wendy: Yes. So I think there's tactical things and then there's mind set things, right? So it's like, I always like to envision the like neuro pathway being formed by like actually walking through a forest and like you come to the fork in the road or whatever and you're like, okay, there's the path that gets you to the river where I want to go for afternoon swim in the sun--that path sure looks easy. Like it's pruned, it's open.

I know how to get there. It's like a seems like a straight shot this one over here though. I've heard there's like waterfalls and there's like all these amazing things and there's like deer on the way, like bunnies and like beauty just like exotic flowers and it takes you there too, but it's kind of unknown and I'm going to have to prune the way that I like to envision, like that's what you're doing when you're choosing the new way of self regulation and self control, especially if it was, it was not modeled to you.

So when someone triggers you and you are like, now I'm gonna take a deep breath, put my hand on. I mean we teach all these tactical things like pause buttons and heart connectors. You take a deep breath, you find a healthy intention. We teach families to make like calming bags where they have calming bags, their kids have calming bags; teaching to walk outside all these things, but like when you do that and it feels so weird, it feels permissive.

It feels weak like you're just going to let your child spit on you. Well when you're developing self regulation, you might need to walk in that backyard for four minutes and for that four minutes you're going to feel so permissive because you're literally going through the forest and there's like precursor, it's just, it can just be painful in the beginning.

So you just have to have this mindset of by the time I prune the path and every time you do it, you get a little bit more confident that you can come back in five minutes to a child who is made a big mistake or had this big emotional outburst and for that four minutes you just successfully taught what self-control looks like.

So it's things like you're calming your own self nervous system which is good for our bodies. It is not healthy for us to have hearts coming out of our chest and heart palpitations and all these things. So you're taking care of yourself, but then you're also teaching your child like you can be strong, firm and kind and not be okay with someone spitting on you or hitting you or saying something unkind or even like simple things it can like I have a neighbor who was like we had to start spanking our kid because he was like rolling his eyes and that's blatant disrespect. So like some families are like whoa you can't just walk away or self calm when a child rolls his eyes. So that is the only way to teach a child how to self regulate and self calm.

Laura: is by modeling it.

Wendy: It is. To me it's the only way.

Laura: Yeah, you know what, you know and what you see kids are learning from us in that way.

Wendy: Yeah, it is a journey when you are triggered and but the cool thing is as kids, they just give us all these opportunities. like the same thing happens with our neighbors and our colleagues or things but like our kids just give us all of our opportunities to practice the self calming is actually like the biggest thing we teach and a compassionate discipline toolkit. It's the number one thing I make sure parents understand: Has to be what they work on 1st.

Laura: Always, it has to be, it has to be first because otherwise you're just going to go down that path that's so deeply ingrained in you. You're just gonna get sucked right back into it.

Wendy: Yes and it's so strong if you can just remember, like how strong it is like it is just not, it's just a myth that it's weak because later is always the best time to teach when emotions are heightened. Nobody can be a teacher, no one can be a learner just doesn't work well. So the teaching needs to come when the brain is like stable, right?

Laura: When the brain is in a state where it can learn. Yeah, and that goes for both people. The brain that is doing the learning and the brain that is doing the teaching; they both need to be in a nice synced up calm space where they can both be available to each other. Like both of the brains need to be calm.

Wendy: Yeah but in that midterm while you're doing it you just have to think of your favorite mentor or think of this conversation and just maybe have some affirmations or something I am statement of like, what actually makes you strong because culture will tell you that strength is when you puff up on a kid and put your finger in their face and make sure that they know they are not allowed to talk to you or else there'll be a big, that's what culture will tell you strength is and it's actually not strength.

True power comes in influencing and motivating a child through connection and all those things that doesn't come through just overpowering because you're bigger and you can take away more and scare them into complying.

Laura: Thank you, Wendy, for this conversation. This was beautiful and lovely and I so appreciate it. Why don't you make sure everybody knows where they can find you on social media so they can follow you-- and this is something too that I feel so called to say and I think you probably join me in this is that these tools, what we're talking about here are something that I want all parents to have access to and to learn and I don't care who they learn it with. So it sounds like you've got a membership in courses, so do I, I don't care who you take the courses with, go to.

If Wendy is speaking to you, go take her courses. You know if if you want to take them with me, take them with me, I don't--go to find the teacher that resonates with you that is going to hold the space for you that you need to step into these changes. So and with that spirit in mind Wendy, where can they find you if their hearts are calling them to work with you.

Wendy: Thank you, Laura. The best way I say is right away, just grab a free guide that I have. I love love love supporting families with strong-willed kids. My little strong-willed, amazing little girl like I said, I found this work when she was three--she is now 13 and I just get so fired up to help parents really see these kids in a light where they can have joy and peace by raising these amazing human souls. So you can grab that free guide to Raising Strong-willed Kids with Integrity over on the website. But it's fresh startfamilyonline.com/strong-willed-kids. That's the best place to start. And then I'm @freshstartwendy on Instagram and I'm the Fresh Start Family show over on Itunes or wherever you listen to Podcasts.

Laura: Awesome. Well thank you so much, Wendy. This was such a good, heart warming, kind of life-affirming conversation so I really appreciated it.

Wendy: Well, thank you for having me. You are such a light Lord. I'm so grateful for the work you're doing in the world. Thanks for being a light spreader and thanks for having me.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shoutout um and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too.

December 03, 2021

Episode 91: How to Find Ease & Flow in Parenting with Kiran Trace

December 03, 2021/ Laura Froyen

For this episode, I am happy to be joined by Kiran Trace. She is a human development expert and spiritual teacher with 15 years of clinical experience in childhood development and early childhood education. She has built education, leadership, and developmental skill programs for children in high-risk populations and respite programs for adults and children with mild to severe developmental disabilities for organizations such as Boys & Girls Club, Outward Bound, Bay Area Parks & Recreation, and the Association of Neighborhood Houses. Today her work focuses on helping parents give fulfilling lives to their children.

Here is an overview of our conversation:

The importance of parents to find ease and relaxation in the role of a parent and how to accomplish it
Developmental capacities we want to notice & support in our child once the world starts opening post-COVID
How can we, as parents, step out of neglectful, authoritarian, or over-involved parenting styles (and understanding what each of them are)

To know more about parenting, follow Kiran on social media and visit her website.

Instagram: @kirantrace

YouTube: www.youtube.com/kirantrace

Website: kirantrace.com

TRANSCRIPT

Parenting is often lived in the extremes. It's either great joy or chaotic, overwhelmed. In one moment, you're nailing it and the next you're losing your cool. I want to help you find your way to the messy middle, to a place of balance. You see balance is a verb, not a state of being. It is a thing you do. Not a thing you are. It is an action, a process, a series of micro corrections that you make each and every day to keep yourself feeling centered. We are never truly balanced. We are engaged in the process of balancing.

Laura: Hello, everybody! This is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this episode of the balanced parent podcast, we're going to be talking about how we as parents can support our children in their optimal development in a way that is not overwhelming stressful or you know really scary for us.

I think lots of parents get stuck in a place of really wanting the best for their kids and they stress themselves out and so I'm bringing in an expert who can help us figure out how to support our kids so that they can have healthy, happy fulfilling lives in a way that is actually kind of easy on us and I'm super intrigued.

So please welcome Karen trace to the show, she's going to be my partner in this conversation. Kiran, thanks for being here with us. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Kiran: Hi Laura, thanks, happy to join you and all of you, the audience of Balanced Parent, which is such a lovely podcasts and are thrilled to be here. I'm thrilled to be with you today, a little bit of what I do. So I have a clinic with other psychologists who work with us and myself and we really work mostly with parents and non parents but adults and really show people how they can live an optimal life, a deeply fulfilling, deeply aligned, highly utilized life from a place of profound ease, from a place of profound effortlessness and in fact by tapping that ease and by tapping that effortlessness. That's actually the only way we can have this profoundly fulfilled, fully utilized life. So that's our specialty and that's that's what our clinic offers.

Laura: Okay, so I think I speak for everybody listening right now, we're like, yeah, we want that. Okay, so how? Tell us.

Kiran: Okay, cool. One of the main challenges that all of us face is we have a deep embedded story in our system that who we are, what we're doing and how we're living our life is like so, so, so, so important and we have to get it right and if we don't get it right, we're messing up, you know, we're harming other people. And so this tension, this is a really big tension in us and that tension is blocking our ability to recognize there's something deeply supportive in each moment, in each present moment.

And if we can land in that present moment and connect to that supportive movement, it has a flow and it's gonna flow us into a really aligned place. And so the place that I find with everybody we work with, we're always trying to help unravel or untangle that deep tension so that they can listen and find that flow.

So, you know, similar to ancient teachings where you're going to like find the dow or listen to the dow, you know, like find that flow step flow state, find that that zone and then I think every parent listening understands that because they found it at many times at many moments that dropped into it for a second and things are just like easy and fun, right and simple? And then it's like, and then you fall out of it again.

Laura: It always seems so slippery. It just, it does, it seems slippery, like hard to hold on to at times.

Kiran: Yeah, exactly. And so let's get into some practical ways that we can actually harness that and have a repeatable access to that flow state, but that's really what we're actually talking about is something that's not unfamiliar to anybody listening. It feels impossible to repeatedly get back there.

Laura: Yeah. And you know, it was something that we were talking about before we started recording, was that how when we're in that state, things also flow easier for our kids. So I kind of want to see which direction you want to go. Do you want to go towards kind of how do we step more into ease and presence and flow or do we want to go in the direction of kind of what are the developmental capacities of our children and move that direction. What feels good to you right now.

Kiran: Yeah, I think if we start with why that is so important to your children and how it affects your children, I think will build slowly the understanding for our listeners here of what the foundation of that is, then we can move into the practical ways that they can do that with. The understanding of this is going to help my kids in this way and this way and this way. So I think we'll start in on how it affects the kids.

Laura: Okay, let's dive in, tell me.

Kiran: Okay, so, you know, you know, and I know we have this language and psychology, we're talking about developmental markers or these developmental capacities, but let's break that down a tiny bit for you know, just for parents that may not have had the academic background we have, but the idea is like if we're talking about something that's developing in your children, right then that is a spontaneous movement and it is about a neural network. So this is connecting information in our neurons, in our brain.

Now we have three brains, we have a brain in our head, we have a brain in our heart and we have a brain in our gut and each of those brains are moving with these neural pathways which we can think of roadways and if we build roads then we can get to places right? And so the more access there is the more ability to flow our children would have. And so when we're talking about a developmental capacity, we're talking about a spontaneous neural network that's going to allow your children.

So the capacity to resource solve, understand and actualize. So we're talking about a developmental capacity, that's what we're talking about the spontaneous movement inside your children to begin to resource solve, understand and actually

Laura: Can we get like a concrete example of something that most parents will have seen this in action with their kids.

Kiran: Absolutely. And that's the thing is like there are fancy charts and you can look online but regardless like throw all that away you as a parent witness your children's capacity all the time, right? All the time. And it's so exciting as a parent to witness that it's a real joy because you're watching your child and your child is like discovering how to tie a shoe or discovering numbers or letters or even like if you think of your child right now and whatever age your child is, you could sit just in your being see their capacity, right? My child has the capacity to well Laura. What are some of the capacities of your kids? Like just one of your girls?

Laura: Oh, I mean they have capacity for great kindness and generosity. They have the ability to figure out how things that they are seeing in there, close world relate to the bigger world. One of them loves to play with numbers and I see her math capacity a lot and I think a stage that I really, I saw some of these developmental drives coming up, these kind of inborn just can't even hold it back, drives that I think most parents will relate to is when language development is happening, even for non hearing kids or kids who are in home that uses sign language.

They babble language, there's this dry for language that most kids have both of my kids when they were learning to crawl, would wake themselves up in the middle of the night, like pushing up on their hands and knees and rocking, you know like and I know I hear about that all the time from other families too, that it just, there's these certain things that are just these drives within a child that's going to happen and we just have to kind of get out of the way.

Kiran: Absolutely. Because that's the thing right? When you see that this is an inborn capacity coming online. It's a spontaneous thing in your child and like just even as you're talking the joy in your heart, right? Like it's so as a parent, this is such a miracle to witness and were touched, were so touched by it. Like it feels like there's nowhere else we would rather be in that moment than witnessing our child developing right? Like getting a skill set organically inside of them.

And I love how you describe like one of your girls, it's math is just really alive for her. Some of the language we use in our clinic is like it's a turn on right, the kid is just turning on like this ignition switch and it's so beautiful because it doesn't have to do with you.

You didn't teach her math, that was a developmental capacity in her, you didn't teach them to crawl right? That was developmental capacity in them and it's going to continue that way right? Like you don't have to teach your children kindness, compassion, these are inborn capacities in children that will come online if we could get out of the way as you say, right?

Laura: I think of what you're saying right now, especially for some of the more social and emotional skills, is not well understood as a capacity that's inborn and that is coming online in the same way that learning to walk or learning to read is understood.

This is something that I experience a lot with one of my own children child. So my oldest has an explosive temper. If you want to label it something that has some other kids developed emotional regulation faster than her. I don't really like calling things delay.

Kiran: It was made.

Laura: She was moving at the pace. That was right for her and she is those things are beautifully coming online in the way in the space and time. That's right for her.

Kiran: But also what if that explosive temper for instance was actually developmental capacity. It was a capacity. So let's say we can have children who are we like to call them rebels? Right? Like a rebel child. And then we have our docile children and both of those children are moving with developmental intelligence, real intelligence. And so are docile children are very turned on right?

Like engaged by rules, they want to know the rules and I don't mean that in the concrete like don't run in the hallway kind rules, but I mean like the rules of society, like the rules of engagement, the rules of civilized world is such a turn on to them? How do we play here? I'm here in this life thing. What are the rules, how do we play in?

Right, that's a docile child's developmental capacity but a rebel child has very little interest in the rules and is much much more into effectiveness, speed and efficiency, that's what our rebels are and they're incredible at it, they're incredible at it. And what happens is they get quite frustrated if there are air quote rules in play that affect efficiency, effectivity and speed.

So if a rule gets in the way of the effectiveness, the speed of it and the efficiency of it, they get incredibly frustrated an explosive as they ought to because it's a real impasse to the thing that most turns them on. And if we allow our rebel children because you know all of you guys know, you know most people have come into contact with the rebel child whether it's their own child or and these are and if you were playmate or whatever, these are very, very creative children and if we allow them the space to make their own pathways through things like it.

Let's say you're at a grocery store with your rebel child, your rebel child doesn't want to do the rules, they don't wanna have to walk that way around the grocery store, they're like in a fine these efficient speedy effective creative solutions and if we're pulling them back because there's a different rule, they get really explosive. And yes we do need to help our child with expression skills then perhaps the actual explosion is a beautiful developmental sign.

Laura: So yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny, this one daughter of mine is actually much more of a rule follower. It takes lots of comfort in rules and actually it gets really upset and finds it really problematic when things are not going according to.

Kiran: Yeah, she just flipped it.

Laura: Just wait. But I think that so many of the parents that I work with, they don't see the range of development and learning of social and emotional skills the same way that they do like their child learning to walk your child's learning to walk. We expect them to fall down, we expect them to stumble. You know, we expect that that's not going to be a perfectly, you know, they're just going to stand up one day and walk perfectly with no stumble and we expect there to be a progression a movement and very few parents apply that to.

Kiran: The passion, kindness, empathy.

Laura: Generosity.

Kiran: Generosity.

Laura: Those pieces

Kiran: Resiliency.

Laura: That yeah, that those things also take time they have, each child will have their own individual developmental trajectory that will look different than other children's.

Kiran: And we'll be spontaneous and will come online.

Laura: Yeah. And we'll come online, there's a piece of trust in there and trusting in children, trusting in their capacity is that I think are embodying here. That is hard for parents to trust sometimes.

Kiran: Yeah. And this is that because for parents, it's hard for them to understand safety already exists or that ease or relaxation and safety are possible places we have this sort of deep programming from our own parents to us and part of the world to us that it's our job to be stressed. It's our job to worry. It's our job to like run ahead of our kid five steps and project a problem. Project a challenge.

That's the thing that's being against that sort of pressing against their ability to just stop witness their kids and then see the what I would call empirical evidence that your kids capacities will come online. Because when you took a second and talked about the developmental capacities of your kids, you can see there's just been this organic progression that you didn't teach, you didn't intervene.

Like they woke themselves up to crawl. You know, they woke themselves up with language. They like looking at how consistent that was. You just witnessed your kid look at how incredibly consistent it was. I feel like that's where the trust comes from. The direct experience of how consistent, consistent, consistent it is.

Laura: And that we can trust them. We can and not just trust our kids as individuals, but trust as an organism as a being right?

Kiran: Yes. So for me, the definition of the word trust has to do a lot with maybe I use the word faith instead of trust and they could almost be interchangeable. But I think with the connotation of faith is an idea that I have this experience of my child in this case, and it's so consistently true about my child that I can have faith, it will continue to be consistent is kind of the definition.

So it's like it's not a blind leap into the unknown. It's a reflective process based in evidence that you as a parent are witnessing, You're witnessing the evidence, witnessing the evidence. The evidence is so consistent that we can absolutely project. It will continue to be consistent.

Laura: For me that feels very reassuring. That feels like something I can say to myself in moments when I'm afraid that my kids aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing or growing or developing skills at the rate that they're supposed to be doing it. That feels very reassuring to me. And I think it's easier for me, given my background for that to be reassuring. What about for the parents were like.

But yeah, and at the same time, the kids have got to go to school, There's rules to follow. They have to be able to say, you know, you know, know that if somebody says no to them that they can't just throw a fit about it. Like what about those situations where there are societal expectations placed on parents and we're living in society, like we're living in culture, what do we do? Sometimes? It feels really hard and lonely.

Kiran: Yes.

Laura: To be parenting this way.

Kiran: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And if we're going back to these spontaneous developments, right? So if you look at just as you're listening right now, right, just put your kids capacity in your mind, right, just as Laura had done here, your kid their capacity, do they have capacity to say, please write is the capacity, They're not the willingness, the capacity is a good different,

Laura: It’s a good differentiation of course the capacity is there.

Kiran: do they have a capacity to stand in line?

Laura: Of course the capacity they use there.

Kiran: Yeah. Do they have a capacity to listen to an adult and understand what's being asked of them? Do they have the capacity to understand and witness the world around them? And they're like, let's say it's like a classroom environment and the kids are all working on a project. Does your child have the capacity to sit in that classroom and recognize she has a role in that space?

Laura: Yes, mine does. I'm not sure that all kids are ready for that.

Kiran: Because if the capacity. Yeah, exactly, it's not at all ages.

Laura: Right, capacity is going to come on board, come online and many of our systems in society like classrooms, right. We don't put our kids in classrooms til they're four or five when that capacity is generally on board.

Laura: Although personally I think it's too early, I think that they should be sitting at desks until they're closer to eight.

Kiran: or maybe never sitting at desk.

Laura: Right. Probably.

Kiran: innovate and make better. Yes, absolutely. Is it the best know and evolution is going to keep changing that and PS Covid has made some really great inroads on how we can start doing the school systems better. However, for now it is generally a capacity of a four year old or five year old to be able to sit in an environment and witness the role going on and understand that they have usually, you know, at four or five, the developmental capacity of your children as they want to engage. They want to be helpful, they want to contribute, they want to know what their job is, give them a job.

Laura: They want to be a part of a community, they want to be part of friendships.

Kiran: Yes, these are organic developmental capacities and regardless you as a parent like trying to give it to them or teach it to them, it will come on board. So for parents who are sort of like, but there's this world in this world expects of my kid, it's like, you know, what chances are your kid, if that's their appropriate environment then chances are your kid will have the developmental capacity or it will, or the environment will help it come online.

Laura: Yeah, there's this quote by Magda Gerber that you just reminded me of that says readiness is when they do it and I love that, I love that, that's what I love that readiness is what I do it and it's just, it's that's been a very comforting thing for me to remind myself of, for example, my oldest who was wonderful and delightful and who I adore has moments where she is reluctant to try new things and it is nervous about certain things and so riding her bike is something that she's wanted to do for a long time.

She has completely has the capacity to do it. She would be like, she could get up on her bike right now and write it without training wheels, I have no doubt, but there is something that is impeding her from doing it, you know, actually doing it and she'll just i it's my job to just trust that she will just, she'll do it when she's ready.

She had the same, you know, it was the same with swimming when she refused to put her face in the water, she refused to let go of the side even though she was clearly strong enough, clearly able to swim. And then one day she was just like, I'm going to do it and then she just swam across the pulling hard.

Kiran: Here's you illustrating a beautiful real time for all of our parents right, that you can use your own witnessing of your child's capacities right to see how consistent it was, trust that that will come on board to trust your word faith, my word, that it will come on board, that this is a spontaneous developmental piece that will come on board and, and the pressure you as a parent have to be like, well, like my kids are swimming classes and she won't leave the side of the pool, you know, like I signed her up and there she is, it's like, you get to actually like relax, sit back and witness your kid and the kid.

Laura: And it's a form of self soothing for me. So I'm an anxious person and so, like, continually reminding myself of these things like, when I take her out to ride on her bike because she's asked me to and it's her leading, I say to myself, she will do it when she's ready, she'll do it when she's ready. There's no rush. If she wants to ride a bike, she will, you know, I just have these little things that I say to myself in my mind because it's, there's pressures there. I grew up in a home.

Kiran: It's pressure, I would say, yeah, what's your home, exactly.

Laura: you know, it was my totally, my upbringing, you know, is totally like the voices of my parents and my mind are there, you should be doing this by now. There's no reason you're not doing this by now, you know, all of those things were there and I have to consciously and intentionally counteract them so that I can be present and relaxed with my kids, you know?

Kiran: Yeah, so this is the beautiful thing, one of the things we talked about a lot, what is innate parenting versus conscious parenting, you know, in our clinic and innate is although that programming that we got in our homes and you know, like conscious is going, you know, this isn't working and right, it wasn't helpful for me, like there's a lot of suffering. Some of this is really hard for me.

Like as an adult, right? Like I have, I'm suffering right? Like I want to get more conscious, so I want to take the stuff that was in my subconscious, I want to take this stuff that was, you know, like in my unconscious and I want to bring awareness to it and bring it into the consciousness so that I can make a different choice. Such a beautiful, beautiful movement in a parent and but it does put this work thing, right? Like I'm yes, and then I have to work on myself.

Laura: And it's cumbersome, it's cumbersome are clunky or I'm screwing it up or I am gonna Pass on my screwed up stuff to them. I know that that's a big fear for so many parents, you know, I didn't get all my healing done before I became a parent and now I'm going to screw up my kids, you know, can you please help us with that a little bit.

Kiran: 1,000%. My total joy. Yes. Okay, so here's an interesting thing about as human beings, right? If we are struggling and suffering with something and it's a challenge, we often think, okay, I have to unlearn this. I have to figure out a new way, but if someone puts another way beside it, that's really easy, really effortless and get you to do the same place, You don't have to unlearn it all, you can just go do it.

So for just as an illustrative example, if you were going to work and you went out your house and you like walked 2.5 miles up the street and then you have to cross this rickety bridge. When you got to the other side, you have to wait for a bus and then you got on a bus and the bus took you like uptown. But then you have to get off the bus and walk through this really sketchy kind of back alley way and then to get up into your work building, right?

So this is how you got to work every day. And then someone just said to you, hey, if you went out your house and turned left two blocks away is the same building, like that's your office right there. You don't have to unlearn the instinct to go right and walk three miles, you know, I mean like you don't like, like you would just literally, you wouldn't have to remind yourself to turn left, even right, you go out the door, turn left, go two blocks, there's your building done, right?

So the cool thing about us human beings that if you can put them more effortless, more years filled, more nourishing play choice in front of you. You will choose that you won't have to unlearn the painful suffering, difficult, challenging things that you have to.

Laura: Yeah. Our brains love efficiency.

Kiran: Some love fantasy and some love rules, right?

Laura: Well, I mean like it to just be simple and straightforward. They like the easy path.

Kiran: Yeah. It's also that our system can recognize nourishment versus suffering instantaneously. Right? Our babies did that right. Are we could see it in our babies. Our babies would respond to nourishment and kind of pull away and be afraid or you know, like be contracted if there was suffering, right?

Like this isn't an eight human. It happens really in our primal brain that's sharp, our brain stem and our limbic part of our brain that we can receive information that says nourishment and we can receive information that is suffering and know the difference instantaneously and we will move towards nourishment and that's a really beautiful human thing. And that is the thing that builds your developmental capacity is moving in. That nourishment really. That's part of what's happening when we're building more brain neurons. So we've got our brain stem and our limbic brain.

These are primal ancient caveman parts of our brain and then we have that cortex which is what we think of, that outer shell of the brain when we think of the brain in our head. And then that prefrontal cortex which takes that whole cortex and links it to the primal part of our brain and what's happening there is building brain fibers, building neurons, right?

And so this whole brain development is occurring through nourishment, not through suffering. We know that suffering breaks neurons, breaks fibers and that nourishment builds them. And so this is the cool thing about us humans. We thrive in nourishment. So if we put for all of our parents, if we if I just illustrate, bring forward where those deeply nourishing places are, you won't have to you have to worry about the trauma that you didn't clear out yet.

Laura: What does that actually look like in practice? I've worked with enough parents to know that they will hear someone say that and they will feel really skeptical that that's possible for them. They need an example of like what that actually looks like.

Kiran: Totally. So let me give you a little more understanding and go right into some examples for this. So we're just talking about our brain development. We just talked about how we build brain fibers, right? How we build these neuron networks. These are like roadways. So it's really easy to get around so we can get around our brain really easy and then suffering or trauma it breaks it and we end up with dead ends, right?

Like that's what suffering feels like. It's like a dead end, dead end, dead end, Right. And so what we know already with data, which is you and you as a, as a parent can understand it immediately is that the place that builds the most neurons or brain fibers and which is also to say the thing that's going to help your children develop the most is relationship not technology, not information. It's and also not doing a skill set.

It's actually going to be relationship that builds fiber and here's a really cool thing about relationship relationship is based in being not doing. So we love to be with our children for instance, right? We love to be with our children and we as parents start to think that we have to do our children are due for our children or do and then we've interrupted the relationship a tiny bit there and it's way more nourishing to just be with our children because that is the heart of relationship.

You be with your dog, you be with your cat, you be with nature, you be with your partner or your friend. It's the being this, that is creating all that yummy relationship and that being this is creating all those beautiful brain fibers and that more brain fires fibers gives us more developmental capacity. So if we so high did see

Laura: Sorry. Yeah, I just want to give an example of that that just so just as an example, my kids like to bake with me and we like to do that together and it can either be really stressful for me or really enjoyable to me, depending on my approach to it, what I do in that moment with them. If I'm focused on the outcome, the doing, they're getting it done the cookies, whatever it is, we're making, getting the recipe. Exactly. Right, teaching them about measuring or whatever.

You know, if I have some agenda for it, it's usually pretty stressful for me. If I'm just in the moment, we're enjoying being together, who cares if the cookies, you know, have a little extra salt in them or, you know, if they get the right number of stirs, like if I'm just in the moment and my priority is on being with them. It's a much more enjoyable experience for all of us

Kiran: For all of you.

Laura: Yeah, there's the nourishment

Laura: for the kids for us. Yeah.

Kiran: totally. Right. The suffering is obvious and the nourishment is obvious. What we're going to start to invite you to do is lead off of those nourishing places. And so let me go into really practical piece of this. So we call this in my clinic, I call it belly time for adult piggyback So beautifully on your program of play, which totally love your program of playing with your kids and I love how you sort of have, it's just like 30 minutes a week. You know, like if you don't have the energy, but it's beautiful.

So here's what I want to invite parents to consider doing for the rest of the week and we call it belly time for adults. And this is like, so imagine that it's like the end of the day you got home from work, right? And then there's everybody needing you, right? The kids are, let's say we're at home with Covid right now maybe, and you've been working in the office or whatever you're doing and then you stop and the kids need, like, the kids want you, the dog wants you, your partner wants you like everybody's like wanting you, right?

And it's just like, it's overwhelming and it's stressful to be like, how do I meet everyone's needs in this moment. We suggest this belly time. So we say, take off your shoes, put the keys down, you know, and get onto your belly, parents right down on the floor level and then the kids will join you. They will come, we're assuming sort of like, you know, school age kids and all you have to do is just lay there on your belly and breathe and witness your children do not. You don't have to do with them. You don't have to play with them. Nothing.

You just sit and witness your children. And so imagine this is like after work or it could be after dinner. I mean, it could be at any point in your day, right? You just get on the floor and lay there. If you have that capacity. If you don't have, if you have a physical impairment that doesn't allow you to do that. Maybe you're on the couch or maybe you're on a chair, but getting down with the kids on the belly and just witnessing them. So this is not disengaging and it's not doing, it's witnessing. So the example I like to use is if we were at a butterfly farm.

And Laura, you and I were sitting on a bench and there was this gorgeous butterflies and imagine they were like giant, like they were like as big as your three year old, right? This is this giant butterfly that you and I would sit and we would, we could watch this butterfly, we want to teach the butterfly. We don't have to teach something or give to.

We would just sit and it would be incredibly nourishing to just sit there and watch the butterfly. Now. Even better than that magical big beautiful butterfly is your child to you as a parent. It's so beautiful. And so there's an opportunity here to just lay on your belly and witness your butterfly.

And at first your kids might be like, whatever they're going to play. Maybe they play like pet shop or maybe they play legos or maybe they play barbies or whatever it is that they're playing or coloring, but they'll just pick up their stuff and start to play is what will happen and you're on the floor with it, they will just start being in their flow and you're witnessing them, you're doing nothing else.

You're just laying there witnessing them and they might say, well you play with my barbie or do you want? And you're like, all you have to say is I see you and then they'll just start playing, they'll just start engaging. They won't, it'll be that what you like to call that independent play, but they're with you, they're being together and what happens is you get super nourished, you're not doing.

And so the invitation here is to lean into that nourishment that you as a parent can recognize, right? Because your head will be like, you should check your messages and did your boss call and what are you gonna have for dinner? Right? Like your head's going to do that. But if we lean towards nourishment and remember, you don't have to unlearn, you don't have to unpack. You just lean towards the nourishment, which is just to lay here and witness my beautiful butterfly and you will watch your children.

It's like your kids were on vitamins. It's so incredible. It's like some B 12 drip, just one into your kid because children is as you talk about a lot of children mirror, they don't act like you act, they mirror you. So if you're looking in the mirror and your hair is a mess, you don't go to the mirror and straighten your hair, right? You have to come to your own head and straighten it. So children are a mirror. They're mirroring of those all those beautiful neurons in their brains. The mirror neurons and they're mirroring you.

So you are sitting there witnessing your beautiful butterfly and they start to respond. They start to thrive. There's this beautiful impact because in essence what you're saying to your children in the mirror language, what you're mirroring to your children is I like being with you mm It also says it's safe to relax here on planet Earth. It's also a mirror to your children to say it's safe to just watch and not do or not no or not even understand, it's still safe.

This is what's being mirrored to your children when you are just laying on the floor witnessing them watching your beautiful butterflies move as parents like the kids are always like mommy will you look at this mommy look at this, your mama you know and our sense is that we need to do for them or respond to them or engage with them but we don't we can just witness and you will watch in your child when you turn to just witness like I see you they see you seeing them and it's not and it's not an engaged movement. It's not like you're on I'm watching you you know that's a different kind of creepy feeling.

This is more like just being with your beautiful butterfly, you're just witnessing your butterfly and they stopped the mummy mummy it stops completely because they feel seen and that's what you're mirroring. You're mirroring. I like being with you. It's safe to relax. It's safe to just watch like you get to be on planet earth, you know baby and just watch and you don't have to do and you don't have to know and you don't even have to understand and look at how nourishing this is this is the mirror to your kid.

Laura: Yeah. It's so powerful. It's such a powerful thing. I've gotten to witness that the power of what you're talking about Over and over with the people that I work with in my 30 days of play challenge the 1st 10 days are just doing that and noticing the effect that it has on your kid and it's huge. I have I have like my own just data just what I've collected on it. And I mean I get Messages all the time from parents that just one shift of spending just 10 minutes just observing, marveling at wondering at witnessing Just 10 minutes a day of that. And it's the truth is is magic.

Kiran: It's totally crazy magic. But it is because of those neurons. Yeah, those mirror neurons and your children. And it's that relationship relationship most fibers in the brain and then and then that relationship is occurring but here's the thing that's really important about that witness, right? You're not trying to do something.

So I'm like, you're not trying to observe, You're not trying to notice, you're not trying to none of that's occurring. It's just lay on your belly, relax and watch your butterfly and maybe you notice nothing that's fine. It's already happening. The spontaneous development is occurring.

You don't have to come away with an observation or come away with nothing has, there's nothing being asked of you and nothing being asked of your kid in that space and that allows for that beautiful developmental growing those brain fibers and your kids through relationship. And it's so cool. It has nothing to do with you as a parent doing anything. It has to do with you doing nothing. What does it feel for you when you say allowing?

Laura: allowing feels very, very spacious. Like it feels very, there's no judgment, there's no ghoul. It just is .

Kiran: lovely. I think for some parents they can try to allow, right? Or they could try to observe or try to. So I love how you define what that feels like because for somebody else that might feel like the real word is like uh spaciousness, right? Or the real word for them is like just relax your role in that moment is to drop the doing, which includes trying to do nothing.

It's the dropping of all of that and that will put you in the zone, it will put you in the flow and it will create all kinds of developmental capacities both for you and your child in a way that just didn't involve you. And then it becomes really, I think organically nourishing to then start to pick that up in other places in the day.

Like when you bake with the kids where you just actually just witness, you know, maybe you're just stirring and witnessing or maybe it's when the kids are going for bedtime routine, you know, and you're putting them through the bedtime routine and all you're doing is witnessing while they brush their teeth. You're just witnessing while they read the book. You know, you might find yourself dropping into that mode because it's so nourishing.

Laura: Yeah, it is nourishing, it's soothing to the nervous system, to your nervous system, loves it. It feels very safe, It gets all the right stuff. So my daughter was, my youngest one was at a pretty long, like a three hour cardiology appointment this morning and there was stress involved in it. There was worrying concerns and most of the time I just was in a place of being with her, watching her as she was watching a movie. And well, because I mean, she had to hold really still to do the assessments and the echo and everything. And so I was just watching her watching the movie. Like I was just.

Kiran: and how did it go that really stressful environment. It's so beautiful, a beautiful example because that's a place where parents will feel like, oh my God, like how could I possibly do that? But I love that. It was in fact so stressful that your only option to sit and be.

Laura: Yeah, well, I mean, you know, these are things, this is the being is a practice that I've been working on for a long time. So I knew that that's what I needed to not go down all of the paths of the what ifs and what could happen and all of those things, you know, I needed to just be in the present moment with her, you know, for my own stress response.

Kiran: Yeah, but when you got home, how was it for both of you?

Laura: We were great. I mean it was fine.

Kiran: Beautiful.

Laura: Yeah.

Kiran: The empirical evidence that regardless of your own trauma Laura, right? Like you can actually enter a really stressful situation with your child and both of you can be really okay all the way through it. And it's not a matter of like you being healed or I'm healed or you know, it's just a matter of choosing the nourishing path.

Laura: and knowing when to recognize that and when to lean into it, you know,

Kiran: Exactly, I feel like that's why we're kind of in this conversation, like feeding in all that brain information so that the parents can deeply understand why your children thrive in that kind of a space because that's the very environment that offers the best developmental opportunities for your child's brain.

Laura: Yeah, I so agree. And it's this kind of like the one this is this one hand washes, the other thing where it's, if we want this for our kids, we have to start with ourselves, you know, start it all starts with us, you know?

Kiran: Yes.

Laura: It's what's good for us is good for them too.

Kiran: Good being the thing that feels deeply nourishing in, right? Like that's the definition of good because a lot of us have definitions of good that are like eat all your vegetables or you know, say your prayers before bed or you know, and those are good and that's going to be safe, you know, in my clinic which is global and thousands, hundreds of thousands of hours of clinical data, we can see the absolute brain development in there.

We have all kinds of beautiful scientific research that points out that actually digital advises those brains. And so I think it's really important that we understand that nourishing choice for us, if we lean towards nourishment, that's going to really allow our own developmental capacities to come on to spontaneously come on board.

Laura: Yeah, that's beautifully put. Okay, so, Kiran, if people want to know more and learn more from you, where can they find you?

Laura: Yes. So kirantrace.com thank you for asking Laura. We have for you guys listeners balanced parents. If you go there to kirantrace.com, you'll see a pop up that says the take the nine day course and it's a free class. It's a great class that I created with my other clinicians and it shows you how to make these kinds of nourishing choices in every day. And it goes very step by step, very detailed information.

And over the course of nine days you might be able to make 3, 4, even five deeply nourishing choice is great if you can make more. I mean, obviously you're welcome to make as many nourishing choices you want. But I think when we're starting from a place of a lot of stress and a lot of effort, I think a lot of these listeners here if your lovely podcasts have a lot of more consciousness. But anyways, it's a free course.

It just helps you to make some of these really delicious and nourishing choices and shows you step by step. And what I think is also really important is if you find yourself way out in stress city way out and overwhelmed way out like which really these days with right at home, we really are. This is this simple, sweet, repeatable path to get right back into the zone to get right back into this place of flow.

And it's just a repeatable, consistent process of just here you go, you can get right back to that nourishing place because we were so stressed and so overwhelmed for like I couldn't find the nourishment if it bit me on my bum curing like I can't see any place of nourishment and so this is a really great way of like how to make some really great choices and how to keep yourself in the nourishing space or return to it if you found yourself way bumped out.

Laura: Awesome. Well thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your experience with us today. This is a really, really cool and interesting conversation, so I really appreciate it.

Kiran: Yes, thanks. Laura was really sweet to be with you and thank you for all the beautiful examples with you and the girls. Like, I think that that's just so illustrative of what's possible for all of us. So it's great.

Laura: I'm so happy to do that. I think that sometimes it's, you know, we can feel like we've got these big concepts but we have to bring it home and you know, what does that actually look like in our daily lives and it's so important.

Kiran: So important, yep, totally love it. Okay, thanks Laura.

Laura: Absolutely, you too.

November 30, 2021

Episode 90: How to Move from Overwhelm to Simplicity with Intention & Grace with Allie Casazza

November 30, 2021/ Laura Froyen

I have a secret: I have been really struggling with STUFF lately. I am not sure if it's because of pandemic stress, or simply a need to feel safe and secure, but for the past year and a half I have been holding on to a LOT (both physical stuff AND emotional stuff). And I don't think I'm alone in this? Have you been holding on to stuff too? Are you feeling overwhelmed and a bit lost on how to let go and clear the way for a new mindset? If so, hit replay and just type: ME TOO!

Shame lives in the shadows and "ME TOO" is one of the most powerful phrases we can say and hear. It can help us feel seen, heard, known, and not so alone. It capitalizes on the concept from Compassion-Based Mindfulness called "Common Humanity" and it is a vital part of beginning to validate our normal, imperfect human experience. In the spirit of holding to the light that we often wish to hide, I am going to be open and vulnerable with you this week and it is going to be a little different from what we usually do.

For this episode, I am going to be the one who's getting coached by my good friend and amazing colleague about the transformational process of decluttering. Allie Casazza, Decluttering Queen, is on a mission to eradicate the "hot mess mom" stereotype by empowering other women. She has built a massive audience and a multimillion-dollar online business based on her proven, family-oriented approach to minimalism. She is the author of Declutter Like A Mother and the host of The Purpose Show, a chart-topping podcast, and the creator of multiple online programs and courses. Her platforms continue to grow every day as more women discover her life-changing approach to creating an abundant life.

She will be helping me get out of feeling overwhelmed and create more space in my life, my home, and my family. Listen in as she brilliantly coaches me through mindset blocks & shifts I never even knew I needed. Be prepared, I do get emotional in this (it's that deep!) and I hope that my vulnerability in this episode inspires you to a deeper level of honesty and vulnerability with yourself.

Here is a summary of our conversation:

How our home & space reflects our inner state
How to start decluttering different aspects of your life
How to have a more balanced simplified home and family life
How to have more compassion and grace towards ourselves

To get more support, follow Allie through her social media and website:

Instagram: @allie_thatsme

Facebook: www.facebook.com/alliecasazzablog

Website: alliecasazza.com

Listen to her podcast: The Purpose Show

November 26, 2021

Episode 89: Defining Beauty for our Children & Ourselves with Abbie Sprünger

November 26, 2021/ Laura Froyen

The topic for this episode is a problem we all likely face, and with the mixed research coming out on the effect of social media on teens, it's particularly important. With the ever-changing beauty standards and the influx of social media, our perception and definition of beauty are heavily focused outward as opposed to inward. And no matter how well you meet society's standards of beauty, this can have a truly damaging effect on a person's self-concept and worth. I don't know about you, but I want my kids to know that their worth as a person is not in any way tied to their physical appearance or their performance, but rather to the simple fact of their humanity. How to get there is what we discuss in this episode.

To join me in this conversation, I’m so excited to bring with you Abbie Sprünger. She has authored multiple books for young adults and families, and works alongside her husband, Micah, as a caretaker of Wesley Gardens Retreat. She is a proud mother of three beautiful girls. As the survivor of eating disorders and exercise addictions, she drew from her personal journey of healing to positively impact new generations of girls everywhere.

Here is an overview of what we talked about:

New children’s book “What Is Beautiful?”
How to help our kids come to value their inner beauty
How to talk to children about comparing themselves with others
How our relationship with our mothers affects our understanding of beauty

If you wish to get a copy of her book “What Is Beautiful?”, you can purchase it HERE.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen and I'm so excited to have you with us today, because today we're going to be talking about beauty. Inner beauty, finding our inner beauty and helping our children find beauty within themselves. And I'm so excited to bring in our guest today. Her name is Abbie Sprünger and she's written a beautiful children's book and that helps us do just that.

And Abbie I'm so excited to welcome you to the show and I just have to say your book is so beautiful and such a gift to the adults who read it and to the children. So Abbie, welcome to the show. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are, what you do in the message that you're spreading in the world?

Abbie: Thanks for having me Laura. Yeah, I did release this children's book back in the fall so quite recently and yet I feel as though I've been on this beauty journey. What is Beautiful? Who is Abbie? Who is Abbie's Beauty? What is obvious beauty so forth? For a number of years. I started wrestling in my teens with eating disorders, exercise disorders. And so I'd love to unpack that just with you and your listeners, some in the show today.

Just how our moms affect our journeys with that and so forth. I can look back at these conversations which are now compiled tightly in a little children's book and they really span for a few decades really in terms of how I've been interacting with them and learning from them. So I was raised in Atlanta and headed out to grad school for a few years in California now have been in Savannah for the last bunch of years. Met my husband here, Micah, we run a retreat center called Wesley Gardens retreat in Savannah.

We have three little ones 5,6 and 8, the third of whom her name is Julia, she's adopted from India. We brought her home three years ago. And so that's thrown another slice just of uh I wouldn't say complexity, but maybe just added narrative to this conversation of beauty very often. I would say most the time when we're out in public, some comment is made, whether it's about picking out Aaliyah's beauty or just people staring at us and then our kids have a response of why are we stared at?

Or Aaliyah starting to even interact with her own questions of, you know, I know I'm part of this family, but do I really belong in this family? And what does it mean to belong in my beauty personally and in a family. So lots of just loaded questions that are tucked into this word beauty and beautiful that I have just, I think what this children's book released become increasingly fascinated by. So that's where the context of most of my days is really a homeschooling mom now with covid and just doing life as a mom with alongside so many of you and then I happened to release this book on beauty. So I look forward to just exploring it some today with you listeners.

Laura: Yeah, thank you for that. You know, I think our longest and most deepest and most important relationships that we have in our life is the relationship we have with ourselves and with our bodies and it's so heavily, especially for girls. It's so heavily informed by the mother's relationship with their own body.

And in the mother-daughter relationship, you know, I have so many memories growing up around the feedback I got from my mother about my appearance. You know, it's funny, so these stories, I think we've through the generations, my mom grew up as an older sister to a younger sister who was very kind of, you know, just kind of the cultural ideal of beauty, blonde hair, blue eyes. And you know, I think my mom grew up in a time where she, her intelligence was what was praised in her appearance.

You know, it wasn't either wasn't talked about or she was given negative feedback about her appearance. And so when she became a mom, she kind of overcompensated with her daughters. Lots of compliments to us, lots of just attempting in a beautiful way to build us up and give us, you know, the confidence and the feedback that she didn't get growing up and as a result of course, you know what our parents do with the best of intentions. My mom is a beautiful, wonderful mom.

Sometimes they have unintended consequences and so for me coming up and especially in my transition to being a mom, my sense of self and worth for a very long time was very rooted in my appearance. and then becoming a mom and having my appearance change so drastically left me feeling a bit untethered, You know, is this a common story that you hear from moms are that you share.

Abbie: Well, thank you for being so honest in that I love hearing snippets of that lower because yes, to the degree that I would almost say, let's see how could I say this? I think by observing and noticing aspects of your mom and the way that she not only was parented but affected by compensating under, over in her mothering of you.

Just all that work, which can be exhausting and take years and sometimes needs a therapist or just a group of friends. I mean it's intense work, but I think it's so crucial if we desire to be healthy moms ourselves. And so it's a common story for those of us who dug into our stories and into ourselves and our journeys with beauty because no parent is perfect, right? And so even the most well-intentioned, healthy, brilliant, whatever positive adjectives you want to fill in their they're still not perfect. And so they it's impossible for them to form us and shape us as perfect children, daughters.

And you know, I mean even that definition right there of what is a perfect daughter, even mean, would if we interviewed each other today, you know, all of us would have different answers and same with beauty. And so I think in that sense it's just it's absolutely crucial for us to explore and ask questions sometimes you have enough of a relationship with your mom where you can actually interact with these, but I think more times than not, it's work that you'll do on your own with close girlfriends or a therapist, but I can relate a lot with your story and it was interesting that your mom tended to overcompensate.

My mom tended to undercompensate and sort of took what she was raised with having brothers and just not a lot of physical affirmation and if there was any, it was more homely words like that and so sort of her parents saying we prefer to focus on your intellect or your, you know, so my mom just feeling at a core level that she wasn't a beautiful human and then I have one sister to I think sibling order and so many things play into this conversation, which is again why it's just crucial.

I don't say that word lightly, but to to explore, but just was raised with one other sister and it wasn't until late into our twenties that both my sister and I had been in counseling for eating disorders and just pretty wrecked on this conversation untethered. I love that word of just what the heck does this mean? And we want to know our beauty, but we have no framework for it from our upbringing. And so that opened a can of conversations between my sister and I and my mom and my mom really having to face a lot of her own work that she hadn't done and then her just sadly apologizing to us, you know, that that affected so much of her mothering, similar to what you shared.

So, you know, again, a lot of this is dependent upon, you know, your family dynamic and not everyone has a relationship or a mom who cares to do the work. But what we can all do ourselves is dig into our own stories. Like you reference Laura. And so if there was one encouragement or a bit of advice to women, you know, listening today to this conversation just to to be gracious with yourself, but to know that the work you're doing is not in vain and it can affect generations to come as you can hear just in our little dialogue of two people and how a mother's role impacts a generation.

Laura: Okay, so I keep coming back as I'm hearing you talk about. So okay, so how do we find a balance? How do we help our daughters know that we do think that they're beautiful, How do we help them find their own definition of beauty? Both inner and outer beauty? How do we balance kind of reducing focus on appearance without sending the message? That because we're not focusing on appearance, that kind of in our silence were saying something with our silence, you know, how do we balance it all?

Abbie: Okay, I love that question and interestingly, I don't think, Okay, so what we say or don't say is going to have a huge influence. But stepping back to that conversation we had before about our moms, I think even bigger than what they, I shouldn't say bigger, but more foundational is our perceptions of them growing up. And I think what we don't talk about a lot is that most of communication is body language, two-year-old, a three-year-old, a five-year-old. They are watching you when particularly daughters here.

I don't feel like I have a grasp on the boys side of things so much. Yet those penises and stuff kind of weird me out sometimes and I just don't want to do with that, but particularly talking about daughters here and and how our daughter's perceive us as moms, but I think they're imbibing so much more and that's the first language they learn before they can hear and understand the language of what a mom is saying to them in spoken language per se they're hearing and seeing their sensing communication via a mother's body language.

And so you know you just you think of a mirror and for me it's very natural for and I have a terrible memory but it's very natural for me to bring up memories of my mom looking in the mirror, getting ready for a date, jingling bracelets, putting on her perfume. Those memories are so clear and vivid to the smell and just watching her interact with her own body that is the first tool of influence that I think we have got to address even before we get to the how do we, when we open our mouths and our kids are say 4,5,6, 14, 15, 16 before that even there's this step of which goes back to what we addressed earlier of have I done my own work and not like in the past tense as I just said it, but have I done it? And am I doing it? Because it's an ongoing conversation mole beauty is not a finish line.

That's been such a surprising piece of this book release is that it changes just like pregnancy changes our bodies beauty shifts through the seasons. And so it's never something that we can check off in the box. It's an ongoing coming back to in various seasons of our mothering event or you know, teens, singleness, college years early marriage, but then through motherhood, I think it's something we've constantly got to be coming back to. That was a long answer, sort of the first part I think of your question and then.

Laura: I just want to pull something out to for our listeners. You know, this is what you are saying is not unlike all of the ways that we show up in our parenting here at the balance parent podcast that when we are looking to make changes in our parenting, the very first place we look as it is within so that those changes can be more authentic and taking a look at what are the overt things were saying, but also what are the behind the scenes, the read between the lines messages that our kids are getting, you know, these are what you're saying is the exact same thing that we talk about like that our kids are always watching if we want them to learn respect, well do that by modeling respect to them.

And so a big step then it seems like what you're saying is learning to kind of heal yourself a little bit kind of working to I understand how you relate to your body to your parents, how you define beauty for yourself and having a firmer sense of all of that for yourself allows you to show up in a better way for your kids. Yeah?

Abbie: Yeah, yeah, absolutely and healing is definitely, I think going to be a part of it for most of us going back to that none of us could be parented perfectly, but I think you know, depending where you are on that question of what is my beauty, what does it mean for me to be beautiful and you know, and maybe for some of you, you hear that and there's just a wall up and you can't even go there um just to say that's okay, you know that's where you are today, but I would encourage you to move into that because I Lauren I talked about this some earlier, I'm coming from a Christian perspective and so, you know, whatever words are helpful for you to fill in here to hear what I'm about to say, but you know, being made in God's image and believing that there's a stamp of beauty that starts at conception that can't be rooted out, it can be ignored or denied.

That I think that there something beautiful intrinsically about each and every one of us. It's not about shape or hair color or, you know, we can talk about those things later. I don't want to neglect those things and act like outer appearance doesn't matter. We all know better than that. And yeah, so that's not what I'm saying, but I am saying that I do believe and you don't have to believe me today and saying this, but I do believe that there's something beautiful within you and I personally, and Laura, you can share from your therapist perspective here, but I would say it's crucial to go on that journey yourself and discover the beauty within you.

If you hope to pass that on a bridge, a conversation with your daughter, because again, you know, you can tell your daughter until she's blue in the face, You're beautiful, you're beautiful, You're beautiful if she knows you don't think that about yourself or not even think it, but no, it in your core if she knows that that's a disconnect that is going to be hit upon at some age or another, it's going to leak out and this is not to say that you've been a bad parent to this point or you can't be a healthy mom if you don't know your beauty, but the honest interaction, not only with yourself, but given your daughter's age interacting with her about it, you know, just when you look in the mirror, you don't need to lie and say, you know, like wow, I'm looking super hot today.

If you feel from P and P. M. Sing, I'm not saying like lie or fake it, but start to think about your language and how your daughter is looking at you and you can say out loud to her, wow, I'm really struggling with my beauty today. But deep down, somewhere in here, I know there's beauty in me and so I'm going to do this or that to rediscover it today or work through it. So I think that's an important part of it is at an appropriate age to start to let your daughter in to your journey with beauty again, helping her to see, wow, mom doesn't have it all together and being a healthy parent or human is not about having it all together and knowing you're hot stuff all the time, but it's about a healthy relationship with yourself and your body and we're wobbly were wobbly human beings right?

And that I think if I had heard my mom talk about that, I think it would have freed me up more as a daughter as a growing human being on my wobbly days, you know of deep down I know this is true about me but wow, I'm just not feeling it today and then you can work on tools of what do I do then you know, take a walk journal, call a friend so forth. But if you don't have that core and the knowledge of knowing your beauty is there in the first place, then it's a bit of a pointless conversation.

Laura: I love what you're saying. I want to pull out a few things to that beauty is inherent just like worth is I feel like as I was listening to you, I just kept the word worthiness just kept coming up and so often we hang our worthiness or beauty on external definitions and external feedback and one of the biggest messages for me in the work I do with parents is starting to find that your worthiness, your beauty is all inherent that you were born with it, just like your kids were born with it and nothing you do impacts it in any way right?

The other thing that was coming up as I was, you know, as you were talking, I was picturing a mother and child interacting and this is one thing that I think that children can absolutely teach us so much and guide us so much because if if you are around little kids, boys and girls, they are so open to seeing the beauty in everything. They're so open to it. They're so good at finding beauty everywhere, everywhere.

My kids go to a Waldorf school and a big principle in Waldorf early childhood pedagogy is that the environments be beautiful because children need beauty as a part of kind of awakening the soul. My kids invite me to see beauty everywhere all the time and in my own body too. So you know, there's this beautiful like thing where sometimes in the process of unlearning all the messages that the world has taught us, our kids can be incredible guides in that unlearning process because they haven't learned that they shouldn't yet. You know.

Abbie: I think you're so right. They don't have a value scale for it. I think that's a mistake that we make sometimes of saying kids are color blind, They don't notice differences. They love everyone. And you know, that's not true at all right. And I understand the sentiment there, but I think they are just like you said, they're so perceptive about color and difference and you know, noticing this or but they don't have the value scale to it yet, which is a reference and so I think you're so right that they can be incredible teachers for us.

You know, I was plucking some gray hairs the other day and my eight-year-old was like mommy, what are you doing? You know, I'm like blushing a little bit, you know, just like, I didn't want her to see me doing this, but here we are. So telling her, you know, I'm just plucking gray hairs and she's like, why gray so cool. You know, I'm like, okay, you know, different perceptions.

Laura: you know, I just, I have stories I want to share to that I have this great streak that's starting to come in here and I love it. I'm very excited to go gray. But my daughter who's also ate, I noticed it the other day and she goes, oh mom, you've got some silver hair there and my other daughter who's five came up and she goes, oh, your hair looks like honest when she gets that streak, you know from frozen and they were just, they were just marveling and I'm like, yeah, I know, Isn't it beautiful? I love it. You know, and we just.

Abbie: and remind me too. I mean we could just go on and on here, but just no matter how we feel about ourselves, our daughter's view us as ana like they think we are the most princess and we're setting their idea of beauty and princess. And so yeah, there's so much, even in that story, I'm so glad.

Laura: I have so many of these, so like, you know, we always talk about how in our house, my belly is the best drum belly, like when we do go, my belly, like everybody comes and drums on my belly, you know, it's so much fun and hard, like hard to like let my kids lead, body love in that way, you know, because there's still layers that are, you can hear me listeners getting teary read here, there's still layers there there are and there always will be, this is just like balance. This is something that has never done, it's something that we're doing as a process.

Abbie: Thank you for not apologizing. You know?.

Laura: No, no, no, not at all.

Abbie: You laugh in one sentence and cry in the other and it's just, I think that's such a picture of beauty because you're right, it is layered and it it ships on days and seasons and hormones and that's okay.

Laura: Absolutely, it's okay. So just one other little wisdom from an eight-year-old a few days ago, I was I was working out and I was doing this workout video that I didn't want my kids to see because in it there is body shaming in it from the instructor and I like the moves in it.

I like the way it makes me feel, but I really did not want my daughter's hearing that message, you know about the bodies, you know, and so they wanted to come and hang out with me while I was working out and I was not going to let them do it and I told them why and my eight year old says mommy then you shouldn't be listening to that message and you shouldn't be giving that person your money, they're hurting you, you know, wow, she's so wise.

Abbie: Yeah, just so perceptive with this stuff almost like a no-brainer that when you hear.

Laura: Like if I don't want to subject you to that painful message, like why am I subjecting myself to it? I mean and of course, I am good with my boundaries, like of what I let in, you know, because again, and that comes from a healing place where I'm actively working on that boundary. So I mean like I totally was like, yeah, you know what you're right, I'm going to go back to this person who I also love to work out with who is beautifully body compassionate and loving and.

Abbie: Well I feel something that you mentioned a few minutes ago two is so crucial in this and it reminds me of a previous question to that I got off topic on, but when you were asking about you know, what do you say to girls daughters or you know, maybe some of you are single or just mentor girls that it's not necessarily a biological daughter, but younger girls in your life, how do we affirm them without overly thinking and I think you know the worst conversation is massive there. And so, and I think for me when I'm thinking about how to affirm a hair styler, you look really cute today. I think we overuse the word beautiful and you'll hear this if you start listening to girlfriends talking to each other a lot of times, you know, when you just go into a group which again, Covid has made this a little different, but picture your imaginations how it once was in life when you go into a gathering and a friend just says, oh, you look so beautiful, but versus not that that's wrong.

There's nothing wrong per se with it. But what if we started to elaborate on that and say you look really rested today, or it just seems like your your heart is well today or something's different about you versus always clumping it into this beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. So I think that could be of help even with our daughters is starting to reflect things to them, even about their appearance, but just using a broader language than always beauty.

So if you mean that they they've gotten a lot taller and they're looking so you know, whatever, but just I think just expanding our vocabulary so that we don't avoid acknowledging and affirming external beauties. You know, humans are beautiful people and we're unique in our design and that's not to be ignored. We weren't created, we were created equally and value and worth, but not in how we look.

And so I think we just need to get a bit more creative with how we affirm one another and our daughters and just not let beautiful be such a like save that for really, you know, there's certainly times for it. You look absolutely beautiful today but save that, you know, for really special times when you mean it with everything in you. So that because I just feel like it's it's gotten a bit trampled on so much so that we don't even know necessarily what it means anymore.

Laura: Absolutely. And I think there's something to to be said for being specific for inviting self-reflection to if we are going to be praising or reflecting on kind of what we, what we're seeing, reflecting on effort or creativity, some other piece of it like oh wow, you chose these clothes and they go so well together. That color palette really suits you. You know I mean? Or like gosh, I would never have thought to put that together.

You know, my daughter loves to play with my oldest likes to play with makeup and she always puts this like shimmery shadow down her like you know, like wear her like her under-eye areas and she's like she does it on purpose because she thinks she looks like a butterfly when she does that, you know, and like I just like, oh I see you've got your butterfly eye shadow on today. You know like it's just, you know, I mean, I think you're so right.

The praise is much more effective when it's specific and it wouldn't it's focused on their efforts and on the aspects of themselves that are also beautiful. Like their creativity is also beautiful. Their curiosity, their curiosity, they're playing like those are also beautiful and so kind of even diversifying our definition and of what like being thoughtful of how we use the word beautiful but also like diversifying when and where we use it to describe what you know.

Abbie: And with that you know and it goes with the self-work on this too. But asking ourselves what about this daughter is uniquely beautiful to me and reflecting that to her you know and then the harder maybe more vulnerable question of what what is uniquely beautiful about me and if you want to share that with a spouse or a friend or just with a journal. You know? Again we're not trying to push you off a bridge here to these hard conversations because they are hard work but they're just so worth it.

Laura: They are they are still worth it. You I mean again kind of like just as we wrap up coming back to that sense of like the relationship you have with yourself Is the one constant in your life. It's so important to work on it.

Abbie: Yeah. Well and that's the front of the children's book is called What is Beautiful and that's when I wrote that that word down on a sheet of paper, the semantic spell out bu to the full be you ful, you know? And so it's like, wow, how have we missed this? But so much of beauty is simply learning to be ourselves to the full and that's a funny thought.

Laura: Yeah, thank you so much. Happy for sharing that and sharing your thoughts on beauty and how we can support ourselves to redefine and claim our beauty and also help our kids find that too for themselves. Thank you so much.

Abbie: Yeah, thank you.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review. That really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out and definitely go follow me on Instagram @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes, look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus, I share a lot of other really great resources there too.

All right. That's it for me today. I hope that you keep taking really good care of your kids and your family and each other and most importantly of yourself. And just remember, balance is a verb and you're already doing it. You've got this.

November 23, 2021

Episode 88: A Simple Tool for Checking In with Yourself with Cher Kretz

November 23, 2021/ Laura Froyen

I'm guessing you are all busy with the upcoming holidays. And as parents, sometimes the preparations and pressures of this time of year can pull up in a million different directions and away from what truly matters to us. And so for this week, I have a podcast episode to help us do a quick "check in" ourselves to make sure that we are aligned with our goals and intentions. This is super important for the holidays as we interact with people who maybe aren't in our daily lives and our boundaries get a bit challenged (Check out this reel for some quick boundary setting phrases you can memorize, and don't forget about one of my very early episodes on setting boundaries! Finally, if you're in my BalancingU membership the Intentional Holidays Workshop is a great one for this time of year! If you're not in the membership, now's the time to join during my Birthday Sale!)

And in this episode, my friend and colleague, Cher Kretz, will join me to help us in this conversation. She is a wife, a mother of 3 girls, and a Family and Kids coach and school counselor. She has counseled kids ages pre-kindergarten to graduation and ran parenting classes for over 15 years. Her podcast, Parenting 2.0 The Focused Mindset, helps families use a solution focused approach to help get through any challenges they face.

Here is a summary of our conversation:

How to be your best self with a quick vibe check
How to feel balanced
Values, Interests, and Boldness

To get more resources for this topic, make sure to follow Cher on social media, visit her website, and subscribe to her YouTube Channel!

Instagram: @cher.thefocusedmindset

Facebook Group: Solution Focused Families

Website: www.thefocusedmindset.com

YouTube: Cher The Focused Mindset

Podcast: www.thefocusedmindset.com/podcast

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello, everybody! This is Dr. Laura Froyen and in this episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast, I'm welcoming my new friend and colleague Cher Kretz of The Parenting 2.0, The Focused Mindset Podcast and we are so excited to welcome Cher Kretz because we are going to be talking about how we can do a quick check in ourselves um to make sure that we are in alignment and kind of working as our best self as parents. So I'm really excited for this conversation, Cher welcome to the balanced parent. I'm really excited to have you here. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Cher: Well, thank you so much for having me and it's so great to have a conversation with somebody that has a like mindset as I do. So I've been also very much looking forward to this conversation and I, myself and my mom of three girls, two of them have already entered into their early adult life.

So I've been through the entire journey And then my youngest one is in 7th grade. So I'm also a school counselor. I've been a school counselor for about 16 years and I've been able to work with preschool elementary, junior high and high school, which is actually pretty rare for school counselors because usually they stick with one grade and or one area.

Laura: Oh, So you have this broad range, you're going to be our wise guide.

Cher: It's kind of interesting because each fell into my lap, but because there was like the economy shifted back. It went in 2008. And so they laid off a bunch of people in the school district and I made the cusp of not being laid off, but I was involuntarily transferred to high school.

So at that time I was with elementary, I was in my jam. I was like, this is awesome. I moved from a preschool teacher in a kindergarten teacher to that. So I just like was seamless and then all of a sudden I was thrown in with high schoolers and I was like, these guys are taller than me, what's going on here? And let me tell you, it's like two separate jobs.

They don't teach you how to help kids get to college, that's not part of you know, your psychology degree or even counseling, they barely touch on it. And so I threw me for a loop and then I realized that they're just kids and big bodies. So it worked out fine.

And then later on when I was in high school for quite a while I decided to apply for a job for junior high because I realized working with high school that every single time that I met with students and I do a little walk back where whatever we're talking about, whatever the issue is, whatever the problem is, where did it originate and it's not that I want to spend a ton of time in that space, but I at least want them to identify that there was a starting point and I'm telling you almost every time it was in junior high, almost every single time.

And so I knew that those years are absolutely critical and I wanted to spend some time there because I knew that those kids are the ones that are developing so many things in their mind that shapes their life and parents are not quite ready for it, they still look at them as kids, their minds are not acting like kids and it is literally amazing.

So then I went back and applied for junior high and people are like, are you crazy? You don't want to work at a junior high and worked there for a few years and then a position opened up in elementary and I was like I'm grabbing that baby, so now I'm back in my sweet spot with elementary and working with families and doing parent workshops and like you mentioned about a year ago I decided to launch a podcast to help parents.

That's where it all breaks down, right? It's all in the parents hands when it breaks down to it. So that's why I opened up my podcast parenting to the focused mindset.

Laura: Yeah, Oh my gosh, I think parents are so wonderful and so powerful and I feel so blessed to get to walk alongside my fellow parents as we learn how we can best support our kids and I mean in part of that is part of the supporting our kids is being well and hold ourselves.

This is what I love to talk about on the Balanced Parent because usually when we think about balanced parenting, we think about a balance of like you know limits and expectations and warmth and compassion balancing within your parenting strategies, but I also view it as really important to balance all aspects of a parent's life.

We are not just one thing. We are not just mom or just dad or mumsy, whatever word fits for you. We are whole beings in and of ourselves with multiple relationships, multiple things that matter to us and when we're whole and well then we can provide this beautiful context, this beautiful environment for our children to grow and come up in. So I'm so excited to talk about that piece of it ourselves.

Cher: Yeah, and that's why your name of your podcast is perfect, Balanced Parent is something that parents don't really consider that am I balanced? You know, sometimes they don't stop and pause long enough to even figure out if they're balanced to w you know busy.

We're so busy and our kids demand our attention and feels demanding anyway sometimes and then parents just need to sometimes stop and wait a minute and say, where am I at right now? How does my body actually feel? What is actually going on? Why did I react that way? And all of those type of questions, sometimes we move so fast, we forget to do that.

Laura: Yeah, I also agree and you know the name of the podcast is a little bit tongue in a week two. So because we're never just balanced, Is that something that we can just put on a to-do list, get balanced and we're done and I am going to take a look at it again. You know, it's something that we do balance is a verb, it's a way of being in our lives and this check in that you're talking about and I think I hope you're going to walk us through the check in process.

Cher: It was when you and I talked. I know we kind of just clicked. You know, we were in similar spaces and we were like, oh yeah, we're on the same wavelength here. But when we talked it was true that what we're talking about is the way now I say go ahead and check in with yourself but how Great I'm going to take a breath like how and one day after a really stressful time in my life, my mom had gotten in a car accident.

She had nearly died and she's still recovering. She got hit by a drunk driver going 90 mph on mother's day of all days as she was watching the sunset on the PCH here in California and she was airlifted to LA. To the hospital and all of my brothers and sisters. I have a lot of them. I have seven all together from the same marriage.

There's five of us but we all came together from our different areas of southern California to be with my mom and to help her right, she's not married just to be there for her and I'm the oldest, but I was sitting and watching all of these personalities, you know, all of us now have our own families were all raised and my mom's personality is not in the mix, which might be, you know, she's laying there unconscious, so she's not fixed to uh, kind of like what moms do, you know?

And I realized that everyone brought such a different vibe to the table. Like everyone had their strengths and their weaknesses and because it was a stressful time, even the negatives were more evident. You know what I mean? And I drove home one day because we were going back and forth to the hospital and I'm thinking, wow, I wonder about our vibe and you know, a vibe isn't just we walk in the room and we have a feeling in the room and that's the vibe.

We actually possess that inside of us everywhere we go, every room, we walk into every person that were around, they're going to get a sense of who we are and we can decide who that is, we can decide what kind of person we are in each given space and an acronym came to me and I was driving at the time, but when I got home, you bet I jumped on my computer, I'm like, I gotta write this down. You know, one of those moments and.

Laura: I hate those moments that make, I think you're like, then you have to repeat it over and over to yourself to make sure you don't forget.

Cher: Exactly what it was like in the car. I'm like this is the thing I have to, you know? So I get home my family is like, hey, I'm like, just a bit that.

Laura: I do. I know exactly.

Cher: So I thought the stands for values, what do we value? Whatever person we're going to be is very much based on where, what we're valuing in that very moment. I'm not talking the big picture. We can have that conversation. Yes, of the big things we value.

But I'm talking about in that moment of time. What are you valuing if you're with your kids and you value the fact that they feel that you're connected, that's your value in that moment. So be in at 100% and then get your best self because you're valuing that time. If your moment in that time is it they learn responsibility. That's the value that you're coming to the table with or it could be just that you're walking into a brand new situation with a bunch of people you don't know, you could say, what am I valuing here? I value friendship. I value connection.

I value love. So that's not going to think about and I stand for being interested in vibe. Be interested not only in your everyday life, but be curious, be the type of person that's watching and observing, not always having to be the one that talks, but take in. So that way you can see what kind of people you're working with, see what kind of little personalities are coming out in your kids. Be curious and interested to do research behind what you're doing. So you can be your best self B stands for boldness.

Boldness is huge. Some personalities more than others. I find that for my personality sometimes I'm too bold, so I've got to chill a little but there's a lot of people like my daughter who is now 23, we have a lot of conversations about the fact that she needs to step into her boldness and she's always worked on that her whole life. She might need to be bold just to walk in and ask for ketchup when they forgot to give her ketchup at the fast food place.

So we're all on different spectrums. But the bottom line is when we walk into a situation, we say I'm going to be bold, I'm not going to shy down from the things that I need to say, I'm not going to I'm going to bring my best self and part of that is choosing boldness and the last is enjoy. And isn't that so important when we get so worked up, we forget that life is meant to enjoy.

These moments are here now for a reason given to us as a gift and you choose to enjoy it. Even if you know you're going to have a tough conversation, even if you're in a hospital. I can enjoy my brothers and sisters, I can enjoy what they're bringing to the table.

I can choose to have a vibe that shows that I'm present and I like being there, not that I'm grumpy and I hate being here and this is awful, so I really thought that acronym is amazing and now it's been a couple of years and I put it into my life and I'm telling you it's made a huge difference, and then I've taught it, then I've done workshops now.

I've taught kids and I've taught parents and it's all about just checking your vibe and then living your best life, but it's how you do it, you say, what's my values, what, how am I going to be interested? How am I going to be bold and I'm going to enjoy this and then you move forward and go for it.

Laura: Yeah, Oh gosh, I love to dig in a little bit into kind of what this looks like an action in the moment with our kids because I feel like this vibe check could be a great way to get the pause I hear from parents all the time, that like, I know how I want a parent and then I get triggered or upset or frustrated and then I start reacting in ways that are not in alignment with what I want to do, how I want to show up as a parent and I feel like this is a really lovely tool for getting that pause.

If we start practicing this vibe check outside of the moment, those hard moments and we start really building this muscle, the skill, this tool within ourselves, so that we have this, this, this moment, you know, where we consistently check in what's my time, Let's do a vibe check.

She says I should do a vibe check, okay, Cher inspired me to do a vibe check, we're going to do that today, and then it becomes more accessible in the moment. So can we dive into each of the, you know, so vibe stands for values, interests, boldness and enjoy. I love those things. I want to just check in with how those things work in the moment. Do you have any examples that maybe like your clients or your students are in your own life of times when you've used it?

Cher: Yeah, absolutely. I kind of feel like there's times when I've done really well with it and sometimes I'm like, oh wow, I know what I didn't do before I came into this conversation, you know, and but recently I um surprisingly it just happened to be when I was getting better from Covid, the wonderful covid caught me a while back and out of everyone in the family, just me and one of my daughters got it and it caused a whole lot of bonding time between the two of us.

So the silver lining was that we had a lot of time together and one time she was coming across into my room, I had recovered, she had it. So I just could be around her, right? So as she was walking in, I just got this sense that this is going to be a tough conversation, this is going to, she has something serious to talk to me about and no joke from the time that she was at the door and walked over to the couch you see behind me?

I quickly did a vibe check and I was like, okay, I need to be present. I'm not going to be judgmental, I am going to be interested in what she's saying. I'm not going to over talk or overpower her. This is not the time for that, I'm going to be bold, but not in a way that's going to overpower her and I'm going to enjoy this because she's my daughter and I love her. It didn't take long. It takes way less time in your brain than what I just said.

By the time she came in my door and walked over and I just noticed you know, you know your kids and she's like, I've really got to talk to you about something. It changed the trajectory of that entire conversation, it changed everything and at the end of that, I was like if I want to put that into practice how many times when she was saying stuff that I disagreed with, Might I try to correct her or might I stop and try to make it a learning moment? Well maybe I need to learn teach you because I'm your mom. No, that was no .

Laura: One fix it. Go try to fix it or give her a solution.

Cher: It was not the time and place, There's a time and place for everything and it was that vibe check that allowed me to be in the right space to notice what needed to happen in that moment and every moment in our life is different. So if we want to be prepared, how can we be prepared if we don't put ourselves in check?

Because then, like you said, we get triggered. I mean it's normal, it's natural. I could give you an example on the way home yesterday from my daughter's soccer that it didn't go so well. I was like, I'm checking my vibe real quick, but then my daughter's driving home and she's complaining about her schoolwork and you know, she said something and I'm just like, come on now, what you need to do is, and I went into preach mode, you know?

And then I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I wanted to preach and I had to go in this morning when I woke her up from school and say, hey, I'm really sorry that I gave you that big old bunch of baloney.

I know that's not why you came to me to tell me you're stressed about your schooling, so give yourself grace, you know, but it even helps in that moment because I wouldn't have even recognized that I did that if I haven't been practicing, you know, I wouldn't have even been able to go back and recheck and say you know what was I really my best self in that moment, I'm not gonna beat myself up about it because that's useless, but I'm going to recognize it.

So that way I can go back to her, humble myself and say, you know, that really wasn't my best self and we can move forward, you know, So that's how.

Laura: How I love that, I love too, like when I teach mindset things like this, I always want to teach that we can use these proactively as a form of practice, you know, regular practice that we have this skill, but also proactively as we're going into a situation. So like if we know we need to have a problem solving conversation with a child, like this vibe check is a perfect thing to do right before you go into it.

We can do it in the moment and we can also do it retroactively because they're like you said, there are always going to be times where we react unconsciously react. We react from old conditioning and patterns, it's always going to happen, that's part of being human and we can always go back and repair and reconnect and this is a beautiful tool to things that I wanted to pull out from the tool that I really, really like.

And then one thing that I want to get some clarification on for our listeners if I can. So the interest one, I really, really like this one because this one I think puts parents into presence with kids interest and curiosity are two of your greatest tools to help a child feel like you're there with them, that you see them that they matter to you, that you're interested in them, that they, you know, you value them.

I love that part of it and I also love the enjoy one even in hard times. So like so many of us grew up in homes where conflict was seen as dangerous, seen as something to avoid. And you know, it's funny growing up, I always knew intuitively that conflict was good and healthy and was an opportunity for connection.

That was something that I just knew as a child. And I think that intuition really propelled me into family and couple therapy, like as my specialization because I saw the people around me avoiding conflict and in the process disconnecting and so yeah, so I always knew that intuitively, but I think that that mindset shift of even when we're going to go into a hard conversation even when we're going to go into a fight.

We have an opportunity to get enjoyment to get connection to deepen our understanding of ourselves and the other person and help them feel heard and understood like these are beautiful things are part of being in resilient, healthy relationships and their beautiful skills to teach our kids to model for our kids.

Cher: No, I totally agree. I mean I'm right there with you because you know, you have your kid triggering you and throwing a fit or they're not being their best self, you know, and they're not being their best self for all kinds of little moments because you know what, they might be in little bodies, but they're full people there right from the start.

Yes, they are full and complete people, they're not incomplete just because they're still being raised and they are not going to always have their best five, they're not always going to be their best self and what are we going to shame them for that and roll our eyes and then change our vibe and then make them guess what?

That puts a cycle that it's not okay for me to share who I really am with this person and if you establish that early on, well, do you think that when they get to the junior high years, like we talked about that they're going to come to you when they have a struggle, not if they haven't felt safe in the moment, so it's really so important that we go into even the worst of times with an attitude of I'm a parent and it's great and this is part of it and that's okay, they're doing that and it's even if I get triggered, it's part of life and we are going to progress. The fact that I'm here and the fact that I'm in the moment is wonderful.

Laura: I have two questions now because you just brought something up for me that I want to ask about. Sorry, boldness, I want to talk about that a little bit because you were talking about that there's a spectrum of boldness. I feel like you have some knowledge there on kind of how boldness might look differently for different people with different personality type.

My boldness when I'm bold when I feel bold, I have this bubbly kind of cheerful personality or I feel sometimes like I am very bold with my compassion giving. So my boldness is either kind of bubbly or very, very soft and gentle, but it's still bold. Can we talk a little bit about can we dialogue a little bit about how bold can look different for different people?

Cher: I do find myself always pausing it. That one like you noticed because it is true that boldness looks different to everyone and everyone's on a different spectrum of that. So I find that me any a gram eight and really out there and really forward that I learned the most out of the how to be bold and that there's a different spectrum from working like I said with my oldest daughter, and even though I've counseled so many kids and talked to so many families about it, it gave me perspective mostly by being a parent.

We do our work, you know what we're passionate about, but we learn a lot just from our own journey, you know, our best teachers, right? And so I learned that here she is with a lot of apprehension about being in the spotlight, You know, where I might not care if I was in the front of the class or the back of the class, or if they called on me, she would be the one that wants to sit in the back and wants to observe and she's a very bold person once she's comfortable and actually it's you should let somebody be the person that they are meant to be.

And if they're meant to be more of an observer and they're going to pick up things that you never picked up on. So their boldness might be that, you know, let's talk about how you're going to ask the teacher for help. Let's talk about how that might work. Let's practice it. Let's do that because they still need to ask the teacher for help.

That's the thing is, you can't just say in our society seems to want to say this well, you know, sometimes is, oh, well, you know, they're a quiet person, so they shouldn't have to fill in the blank, but that's not reality that they still need to live in the life that we're in in the world that we're in. Thank you. They need to ask for help.

They need to be able to be bold in their own way. However that might be, they need to be able to do new things and feel that uncomfortable feeling and then get to the other side of that uncomfortable feeling. That's what boldness is all about.

You do something that's a little uncomfortable because it's what you should do. And then when you get to the other side, you're like, wow, I did that. So no matter what personality type somebody has, they need to decide what is it that I need to be bold about. It's not the stuff that you're comfortable with, that you're being bold about.

It's the stuff that you're not comfortable with, that you're being bold about. Sometimes my boldness is being quiet as weird as that is because I think that it's like I can babble, babble, babble, but can I be in this moment without being that person, then I have more strength. So it is a very individual thing, but it's more the matter of that you're stepping into, what you need to be doing, not shying away. So it's not as much personality as an action and really, probably.

Laura: I'm guessing part of this is how can I show up Bravely as my full self in this movie.

Cher: I love that term. Yes.

Laura: And you know, one thing too that just came up a little caveat is that I love how you're talking about this and how can I support my child in being her version of bold. And this does not mean we're forcing our kids to be brave or to do things that they're not ready for. I was like your daughter as a child, very shy, you know, within situations that were new to me.

Um I mean, gosh, I learned to walk entirely by myself. No one ever saw me practice until I ran across the room. Like literally my great, my parents would come into a room and I'd be standing in the middle of it and obviously had been walking and I would just like sit down.

Cher: don't look, please don't look.

Laura: At me like I'm doing something here, go away. You know, it's already. Yeah, no, it's, I mean, and so like, you know, putting myself out here in a podcast is challenging you. It's brave for me. I have this memory of being a child, being a young child and there were these little ceramic figurines and I had some pocket money and I wanted to buy them and my mom said to me, if you want to buy those, if you want to buy them bad enough, you'll go up to the cash register and buy them yourself. And it was, oh my gosh, it was terrifying. It was awful.

And my best friend Sundance was there with me in this store and she took my hand and she said, we'll do it together. And she was quite shy too. And she had some little figurines that she wanted to get because we were going to play with them together. So we went up and we did it together. But I felt very supported by my best friend but not so much by my, by my mother at all. And you know, there was this moment in my own motherhood because I have a child who's so much like me, much like me.

Cher: Scary.

Laura: So scary and in the moment she loves dogs but she is very shy and so we were at a park one day and she was probably like, I think for and she really wanted to pet this puppy. And I said, if you to her, if you want to pet that puppy bad enough you'll go up and ask the owner yourself that same phrase that my mom.

Cher: Like what did I just say?

Laura: You know and I mean and I didn't realize I'd even like that echo was there until I looked at her face and I saw just her spirit crumble. She was, it was like she was standing on the edge of a cliff with a parachute. And I had told her like you're going to have to take that parachute off and just jump. And and so the words came out of my mouth, I saw that just this defeat on her face. Fear on her face, loneliness on her face.

And I said, I don't know what, you know. Just in that moment I probably did a little bit of a vibe check without thinking about it. And I said to her, honey, I don't know why I just said that. Of course I'll help you go ask that the owner if you compare her dog, come on, let's do it together. And we took hands and we did and now, you know, she's eight and she when she wants to pet a dog pre Covid because now we don't get to pet dogs the same way we used to do. I don't know, Covid, you know, but now she's bold. She goes, she goes and asks and.

Cher: and you'll recognize that boldness to 10 other kids that maybe not even a second thought. You recognize that that's boldness in her. I think that's part of it is you recognize those little things, you know? Yes, as parents, we need to find some ways to help them step into the boldness that they can do. But a lot of times it's practicing beforehand noticing that it's going to be an issue. So practicing beforehand and talking about how it might look. How might that feel. What do you think the teacher might say?

I'm using that example of talking to the teacher because a lot of people in school age, that's a lot of, you know, like, well I can't talk to him. Well a matter of fact you can, but they don't feel like they can. So, you know, so it's like, you know, let's let's practice this. What might you say? How might you say it? It's a balance between rescuing them.

You have to empower them, you can't rescue them, but you also need to empower them in a way where they actually feel empowered and not like on the edge of the cliff, like you just said so, but it is still so very, very important.

We can't say, you know what, I have a shy little sweetie, so I'm going to let her sit in her room and not talk to anyone, you know, like how how is that going to be a helpful situation in the future and that's kind of what I'm dealing with right now with our school district, going back to school, we have time to get to all that, but there's a lot of kids that haven't been able to walk into their boldness, they've been super comfort, super comfortable sitting in their home in their pajamas, you know, and so now they're going to need to step into a boldness that probably would have been very normal to them, like getting out of the car and going to school and sitting at desk, having conversations with teachers, having conversations with friends.

That's why I created my course the conversations that empower because I really see that there's going to be a need for us to teach our kids and to teach ourselves how to communicate because our communicate shifted to a very comfortable we're in our own home kind of conversations and that is not the world that we live in.

So that's not the way that we want our kids to communicate. So, I developed this course because I say, gosh, we need to bulk up our skills and we need to be able so people can get that. We weren't going to talk about that. But people can go to my website.

Laura: you know, I think we should have a whole another conversation about rescuing vs empowering. I think I should have a whole another episode on that topic? I think.

Cher: part 2.

Laura: Part 2 Yes, absolutely.

Cher: because it's true. I mean, that's a deep subject and it's huge. So yeah, let's put a pin in that. But you know, all you listeners think about it because we're going to get back to it.

Laura: Yes. I mean, your questions for Cher. I think the last lingering question that I think it's going to be on most parents who have listened to this in their minds is that this is great. This vibe check is going to be a great tool and I wish I had known it when I was a kid. And so is this something? Is this a tool? We can teach our kids and how do you go about teaching it to them?

Cher: Yeah. You know, I'm actually offering to all of your listeners a special little gift. If they go to focusedmindset.com/vibes, let's have an E on IT vibes. Then I have a check in what I have a personal check in that kids can do and adults can do. And it's really super simple. It's a self check. So it has all of the vibes with all of the acronym on it, right?

And then You write down the different times of the day with your sister, with your, let's say it's with a kid. What's your vibes with your sister? Give yourself a rating of 1 to 10. What's your vibes when you're hanging with mom, when you're hanging with your father, when you're hanging with your pets, when you're by yourself?

And then they get a very overall feeling of 1 to 10 where they're at each day. So now they've done a self check, right? So then they do that every day for seven days and then you guys can track it together and say, oh wow, look at, you know, you gave yourself a seven and now it's eight. I wonder what you need to do to get to a nine, wow. Maybe you could do that. What do you, you know? And then you guys have this tool? So you get that free just by heading over to the focusedmindset.com/slash vibes,

Laura: I'll have the link in the show.

Cher: Yeah. And then also a pin up. That kind of has the vibe is laid out and you can print it, put it up and just remember it. Start getting it in the hole. You know, automatic. Like you talked about the automatic versus the trying. I hope that your listeners are encouraged to use it because the thing is, is that, yeah, why not teach it when they're young? Why not do it together as a family? Why not make it a part of who you are rather than catching up later?

Laura: So yeah, I love that. Thank you for that. Oh my gosh! All right, well, so this was an amazing conversation. I can't wait to have another one on Rescuing vs. Empowering. I think that that would be really great and helpful. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Thank you so much for your help in helping us understand these really important topics that are.

Cher: This has been great. You know, I have a feeling you and I could talk for hours, but I think you're going to set up a part two because this is the type of stuff parents just in general, both of us are saying, let's do this. Parents were in this together. No one's perfect. Let's just do this. Let's work on it.

Laura: I agree. I so agree. Okay, well, thank you so much for being here. We'll hopefully talk again soon.

Cher: Yes.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review. That really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out and definitely go follow me on Instagram @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes, look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus, I share a lot of other really great resources there too.

November 19, 2021

Episode 87: How to Save your Relationship with Kimberly Beam Holmes

November 19, 2021/ Laura Froyen

Our different responsibilities and even the demands of our jobs can take a toll in our marriage. To help us understand how we can deepen our connection and have a more fulfilling relationship as busy parents living through a pandemic, I have invited Kimberly Beam Holmes to dive deep into what it takes to have a long lasting, fulfilling relationship. She is the CEO of the Marriage Helper and is currently working on her PhD in psychology.

Here is an overview of our conversation.

Four steps to ultimate attraction
Proven process for falling in love
Most common things couples fight about
How to change the conversations in our marriage (and stop all the fighting)
How to save your relationship

To get more support from Kimberly, visit her websites itstartswithattraction.com and MarriageHelper.com. And do follow her on Instagram @kimberlybeamholmes.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this episode of the Balanced Parent Podcast, I have a guest for you who's going to help us understand how we can deepen our connection and have a more fulfilling marriage and relationship as busy parents. So please let me introduce you to Kimberly being home, she is the CEO of the Marriage Helper and I am so excited to have her here. It can relate please introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do.

Kimberly: Absolutely! Thank you so much for having me, Laura. I really appreciate being here today. Yeah, like you said, I'm Kimberly, I'm the CEO of this amazing organization called Marriage Helper and really what we do there is we help people create strong marriages and this could look anywhere across the spectrum from the couple who is a newlywed or they've only been married a couple of years and they're saying, how do we do this better? Right? Because there's two things we're not taught how to do, how to be married and how to be a parent and those are the two most important things we will ever do in our lives.

So there's some people who are just saying, you know, we've run into some obstacles, some hurdles help us through it all the way to the other end of the spectrum of people who are saying my spouse is done, they filed for divorce, This feels completely unsalvageable. Can you help? And the answer is yes to both of those situations and anywhere in between. So we're able to help people learn how to do that and I love being able to do that.

Laura: That's so amazing. You know, I think we often go into just like we go into parenthood with kind of rose colored glasses, we go into marriage that way too and we think it's gonna, you know, they're going to be our everything where they're going to solve all of our problems, it's just going to be this kind of idyllic romantic thing and it often is not right, You know, it's gosh, we put so much pressure on marriage.

One of the things when I was a practicing couple therapist, I often got couples who were at a place where they did not know if it was worth saving their marriage if they had done too much damage. And can we talk a little bit about that? Like how do you know if your relationship is, there's too much distance, there's too much damage, there's too much hurt to save it. How do you know?

Kimberly: That is a question that people ask all the time too. I think the fear behind it is do I really want to keep putting so much of myself into this only for even more heartbreak or for my heart to continue to be broken over and over again during the process? What I encourage people to think about when they're asking, how do I know, is it worth saving? Is it worth fighting for? We definitely believe every marriage can be saved.

Now, here's the caveats to that. If there is a good person who is doing some bad things, then I believe that person deserves to be rescued. So maybe they're struggling with an addiction or maybe they are in an affair or maybe the communication really has broken down and it's been that way for years and you're just fighting all the time. But the question I always ask people to consider is do you believe your spouse is a good person who is currently doing a bad thing or stuck in a cycle of doing bad things?

Or do you believe that your spouse is a bad person who is doing bad things because if your spouse is a bad person at his core or her core, who is doing bad things, I don't know that you can salvage that. However, the majority of the time, I mean by and enlarge the majority of the time it is they are good people at heart and they are just stuck in something or doing something. Now some questions come into that of how do you know how long to put up with it? How do you handle it? You know, we can get all into that in a minute, but I believe that forgiveness is what can encompass a multitude of sins. Forgiving a multitude of sins is what allows people to realize there's the space for me to come back or there's the space for this to see if this can be reconciled as opposed to holding things over someone's head or just never letting them move past it.

You know, it's amazing in the couples that we've worked with, There's one couple in particular Jordan and Priscilla and I love their story because Jordan's Priscilla were married, they had four or five kids when Priscilla had an affair and left her husband with the children. Which is not normal. It's not typical that the mom leaves the kids. But she was so in love with this other person and just really felt like life could be happier if it was different. And so she left and they divorced and they were divorced for a year. And during that year Priscilla got pregnant with the other person's baby taking the situation.

Most people would say over right? Like this is a situation, it's probably not going to be saved. Like let go, move on. It's not worth it. But Jordan loved his wife and he still wanted her back even with all of this being done. And as Priscilla was pregnant with another man's baby and realizing what reality was going to be like when she had a baby, she started to realize what she had left.

Honestly, she started to realize I left my kids, I love my husband and I left my life, I left my friends. This is not what I wanted. This is not the life I signed up for and she went back to her husband and he or gave her, I shared this story in an interview that I was doing on a YouTube video a couple of weeks ago and the comments of people after when they heard that and said that there were so many people who said he's a wuss, he should have never done that. I can't believe that he's that whipped or whatever, you know, just whatever it is they said. But the truth of the matter is he forgave her because he loved her, he saw a better future for his family. He wanted his family to be put back together.

She came back, they remarried, he took that child in as it was his own. They are now this beautiful family of five or six, depending on how many they had before and they are so happy. But not only are they happy. They are the living example that there is hope for situations and they share that openly and widely. The first to be able to tell their story and their testimony of just what happened with their marriage and how it was put back together. But if Jordan had not been able to forgive her, there's no way that would have happened. There's no way they could have had the future that they have now.

Now that story could have looked very different. Jordan could've still done everything right and she still could have left and never come back. That's not Jordan's fault. But at least at that point, Jordan would have known I did everything I could to make this marriage work until the very end and he would have, even if she never came back at least had peace in knowing that. So I also encourage people to think, do you have peace if you don't have peace on giving up on a marriage, like real peace inside, not giving up, not just saying to hell with them, right? Like that's not peace.

If you have peace about it, then, you know, move forward in that. But a lot of people don't have peace and they know that their spouse is a good person doing some bad things and they're willing to try and make it work. And I say.

Laura: To be clear. We're not talking about systematic abuse. We're not talking about violence, we're talking about in safe places. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I love this idea that forgiveness is powerful and that there is hope. I think that is a huge message for lots of us, especially right now, so many couples are feeling the strain of isolation of this pandemic of additional stressors being placed on their marriage.

And I think a lot of people in these times of stress things get rocky when we, we as a couple, turn away from each other in our stress instead of turning towards each other. So, some people in my community are wondering then, so like how can we have a better relationship if there's been distance if there's been discord, how can we start kind of turning that bend turning back into each other?

Kimberly: You referred to it? So, I'm going to start there. There's actually really great research from Gottman that talks about what happens in turning towards our spouse and turning away from our spouse. So really quickly, I love how it's demonstrated here. One of the best things that we can start doing if we're wanting to create a stronger relationship with our spouse is to really be mindful of how we are reacting towards our spouse, right? In some ways that we can do this is by assessing when my spouse comes to me with something, Am I turning towards them? Am I turning from them or am I turning against them?

So an example could be if my husband comes to me and let's say, we're walking down the street and he points out a truck because he's definitely a southern man who loves trucks. So if he points out a truck and says, I love this Ford F450 you know, all of this stuff, Why don't you look at that? Isn't that awesome? Well, if I wanted to turn towards him, then I would say, oh wow, that's so cool. Tell me more about why you like that. Because what he's doing in that moment is he's giving me his Gottman would call it a bid for attention. So I can either use that bid to take it and create a further connection with him, which is what we want to do. That's ideal.

Or I could simply just say, oh, that's nice and kind of stop the conversation that would be classified as turning from him. That's not going to help develop and deepen our relationship. It's just kind of going to shut him down. It may send the message unintentionally, what you're saying is not important to me. I don't really care. I'm thinking about other things, you know, all of that stuff. Or the third option of this is I could turn away from him, I could turn against him as another way to say that. And I could say, oh my goodness, you like that truck, It's hideous.

It's too expensive. It's, I mean, whatever it might be, and then in that moment, I'm basically taking this bid of attention that he's giving me and kind of throwing it back in his face, like that's ridiculous. And that's just going to shut him down. And so when we kind of start assessing just in our daily interactions with our spouses, if my spouse or my partner reaches out to me, gives me this bid for attention, what am I doing to respond back to that? And it could be something small, It could be something tiny like, what do you want for lunch today or what should we have for lunch today? And just taking that as an opportunity before instead of just saying, oh, I don't care.

And then getting back to being on your phone or computer, looking at your spouse, looking at them crazy, like in the eye, looking at your spouse and saying, I don't know what sounds good to you, like making a conversation from it. It's one simple thing that we can begin just assessing in ourselves because I don't know about you, Laura, but for me, especially in the first four or five years of my marriage, I was really good at noticing everything I wanted my husband to change.

Like I had this laundry list of things like if he would just do this, that and the other differently, our marriage would be better. And it wasn't until I started looking inward first and saying, what am I doing? That things really began to change. So we can start by looking inward by simply assessing how we react to ourselves.

Laura: When I work with couples. And I still do a lip just a tiny bit of relationship coaching right now, it's not my focus, but when I do, I always start by asking them to make a list of 10 things that they could be doing differently to make the relationship better. Like, so often couples come in and they sit down and they're pointing the finger. You just did it this way, we would be fine if you just do it, do this. We always have to look in, what could I be doing differently. I love that

Kimberly: And no one wants to make that list.

Laura: No, no, no one wants to make that list. It's sometimes like, I have to hold space of accountability of like, okay, you guys did not do your homework and now we're going to sit here right now and do it together because you didn't do your homework and now and it's important. Yes, Absolutely.

Okay, so then I have a couple questions from my community where people are trying to figure out how to communicate their needs to their partner in a way that doesn't raise defensiveness and in a way that gets their needs met, you know? So especially during this time we're all trying to balance each other's needs. Do you have any tips or advice on how to clearly and lovingly communicate the needs that you have your home for, time for yourself, whatever they are?

Kimberly: Yeah, absolutely. The first thing I encourage people to do is to ask if their needs are realistic, that's a good place to start and most of the time they are right, But I just like to have people reassess them and make sure that what they're asking for or what their expectations are of their partner or their marriage aren't just unfathomable. Like are these things that can actually be done and is it realistic for me to ask my spouse to do this for me. So I think that's just a good starting point just to make sure that everyone's on the same page and then the next thing I encourage people to do is to really think about wording and timing.

So my husband and I last night had this conversation as we were going to bed, I said to him because we have something wrong on the front of our house and I noticed it a couple of weeks ago and last night as we were laying down at 9:30 night, I said, Hey will you take a look at that tomorrow? And he said Kimberly, please do not ask me your honey do list when we are trying to go to bed. Please ask me first thing in the morning and I'm gonna be honest with you. I got a little defensive, I didn't say anything, I was proud of myself but I was like but it's the time I thought of it. Why can't I just say it when I think of it. Why do I have to wait till in the morning? Right?

But I just said okay, it's not like I got it. I hear you, sounds good. So this morning I say right like it's morning time, it's time to do it. But timing is a huge thing. You need to make sure that you are in a good space, that you're not irritated in the moment because if you're going to express your need when you're angry about that need not being met, it's gonna come out, lead to a fight. I mean more than likely because of the tone your spouse will get defensive.

You're gonna get more defensive and it's going to lead to this downward spiral. And this is what's difficult for people to do Laura. It's difficult for people to pause it, for people to say, okay, this just happened today and this need wasn't met, you know, maybe I asked my spouse to do something, they didn't do it, but now I'm angry about it, but do I have to address it now a majority time? You don't have to address it right now? You could wait.

Laura: I don't know, the raging teenager inside of you might say things like, but I have the need and I should be able to have my needs met, you know? Yeah, but ultimately, like if your goal is to get the need met, then setting yourself up for success to get that need met is so important.

Kimberly: Yeah, and, you know, I would go even further than that of Yes, the goal is to get your needs met, but I think the longer term goal is to have a healthy relationship. So how do you make sure that you get your needs met? Make sure your spouse gets their needs met. But with the ultimate vision of, we want to create a strong relationship when you take the time to just pause and make sure you're in that good space before you approach your spouse, that you're calm, that you're even keeled, that you feel good about it, feel confident about what you're gonna ask.

That's number one, and then number two is, is your spouse in that good spot because if they just had a terrible day at work or, you know, whatever it might be, if the kids have been driving both of you crazy that day, probably not a good time, right? Like wait until there's calmness and this seems probably counterintuitive. But even waiting until you're laughing about things, you know, just you're in a good spot and maybe slipping it in and not sometimes you don't have to make it this huge, like we need to sit down and I have to tell you this. It could simply be something like, hey, I've been wanting to mention something to you.

Do you think that you could help me more with getting the kids ready for school in the morning? It would be really helpful for me so that I can get to work on time or whatever it is and when you can kind of slip it in and make it where it's not a big deal. Your spouse is less likely to feel like it's this burden or feel attacked by it and more likely to be amenable to it.

I also recommend for people to make sure and this is kind of up to each person. I like to not have these conversations in my bedroom because if it does lead to some kind of disagreement, I don't want our bedroom to be the place that happens. I would rather be a more neutral territory like the living room or something like that. But that's a personal preference that I have.

Laura: I totally get that I wanted to pull something out that you were saying in here the way you were saying it. I think that you mentioned before that the delivery is so important, but you were using beautiful I statements and I think that that's something that is a skill that we did not learn growing up. We did not see that model most of us in our homes growing up and when we focus on ourselves and our experience and our needs, not in the way that they're disappointing us, not in the way that they're not meeting our needs, but in what we actually do need and we keep that focus on us.

Like, you know, I've been feeling super overwhelmed in the mornings and we're all rushing out the door and I know it's a lot and I was just wondering if there's a way we can sit down and talk about how we can make the mornings go more smoothly, you know, like really focusing on our experience and then, and then we're a team that we're going to solve this problem together. You know, I think can be really helpful. I believe that in order to have a healthy thriving relationship, we both need to have interests and joy and pleasure that happens outside of each other. You know, that we can't be each other's everything and so we very much support each other's hobbies and joy and enjoyment.

Unfortunately my husband happens to have two hobbies take forever they're super long. He golfs and he ice fishes, these are like 5 to 6 hour events, you know, that's how he does self care. You know, we were talking about this and my self care is, you know, 30 minutes of yoga, half an hour of painting, you know, reading a book on the couch, all the kids don't talk to me, you know, it's smaller, but he scheduled his ice fishing during my weekly live yoga class that I do. And, you know, I had to come and sit down and say, honey, I so support you in your ice fishing, it's so important, it's so good for you.

I love your ice fishing. And I also really need to have my Sunday morning yoga. What can we do about that? How can we kind of prioritize and make sure that you're getting your ice fishing and I'm getting my yoga, what can we do? You know? And he was like, wow, I totally forgot about your yoga and, you know, we had a great conversation four years ago. It could have been a big fight because we make it are making a conscious effort and being more kind and loving and turning in towards each other. It was not at all, and we left it feeling completely supported and loved by each other. You know.

Kimberly: It's the art of compromise, to write and even compromise, collaboration. Yeah. And trying to be more flexible than not, right? You know, ideally we get to a point in our relationships where if I show my spouse I'm flexible over time. He's going to be more flexible too. And it's going to become some of it's going to take.

But like you said, a lot of this begins with us and I know that's what the whole not fair comes in about it. It's not fair that if my husband is being a jerk that I'm the one who has to be nice, right? Like that's not fair. But it takes the more mature person in the moment to put it back on track. And if that just so happens to be the wives, then that's what it is.

But I mean I say that half just tingly, but it is true. Like there are times in our relationships where it really does start with me. Like I can sit here and be upset about it and pout about it and whine about it or I can just go do something to make it different.

Laura: Yeah, so this is a question that I get a lot that I feel like you just led me into so beautifully. So do you think that one person can save relationship, a marriage, a partnership.

Kimberly: At first? Yes. I believe it takes one person to begin for there to be changes made especially with what we see it marriage helper. When people begin to change themselves, we call it working on your PIES that stands for physical, intellectual, emotional and spiritual. And the four parts of attraction that we talked about. We know that falling back in love or continuing to fall in love with someone. We call that the love path. And there's four steps or stages to it. But the first stage is its attraction. But it's all about you. It's not about just trying to attract your spouse back to you, got to secondary part of it, but it's about you feeling good about yourself.

You, beginning to do things like you said, it's healthy for you and your husband to have different interests to have different hobbies to not be completely intertwined with each other. That's right. And that's the beauty of being an attractive person. My husband is going to be more attractive to me the more that he sees that I am an individual who can be independent but wants to be with him, right? Like that's this interdependency that's so beautiful. And so when people began work on themselves, look inside work on their pies, become the best they can be and begin to do the right things that will put their relationship back on track, then that is setting a foundation for your marriage to be saved. But your spouse has free will and you can do everything perfectly right. But you cannot give them a pill that's going to force them to come back to you. You can't give them you know, there's nothing you can do to force your spouse to end up changing and wanting to save the marriage.

All you can do is lay a foundation that's inviting and not try and force them into it. And then ultimately, at the end of the day, if they choose to leave, at least you have done what you can do, but a lot of times and this is what we see so many times it marriage helper when one person begins to stop the argument cycles. The argument dances that happened when one person begins to be kinder and more respectful.

When one person begins to, you know, in the middle of a fight says, you know what I understand that you're upset right now, let's just talk about this a little later time and then doesn't continue. The conversation doesn't fight back when one person begins to make that change. One of two things typically happen. Number one, either, the spouse will end up getting worse because they're like, wait a minute, you're not going to fight with me, I'm going to yell even louder. Like because that's what humans do when we're not used to getting the response we typically get were like, wait a minute and it takes time for them to settle down.

But the second thing that typically happens is they begin to calm down and realize maybe this marriage can be different than, than what I thought it was again. They still have free will, long story short, long answer. Long and short is I think that it takes one person to start it, but it can't always be one person eventually and it may be years, but eventually the other person will need to come back in order for the marriage to be sick.

Laura: It almost feels like it can be one person who invites the relationship onto a new path, but the other person has to start walking the path with them at some point. Yeah, I want to know a little bit more about So I think it's incredibly powerful to just focus on yourself, Focus on your own reactivity, focus on yourself getting the pause and even just focusing on what can I do to be happier in and of myself on my own? You know? So I mean are these the things that the very first steps to saving a relationship that feels like it's failing?

Kimberly: Yes. There are two things that I would recommend to every single person who's in a relationship that feels like it's failing and that first one is to work on your PIES. So physically it's not about how you look as much as it is, about how you feel? How do you feel physically? Do you have energy? Are you sleeping well? Are you moving? Are you getting your body moving? Are you depressed? Are you stressed?

Like what do you need to do to feel good physically to have energy to show up in your life for me? I know when I am drained physically. Either because of a stressful week or I'm not getting good sleep or if I'm not eating right, then I am going to not be a nice person to be around for me, this is core. This is key intellectually. We encourage people to become a person of interest. Right?

So the whole thing about intellectual attraction is, am I the kind of person that other people enjoy talking to? Am I the kind of person my spouse would enjoy having a conversation with. Now you don't do this just for your spouse, You do it for you first and foremost. But this is encouraging you to go and learn and take up hobbies and have interests outside of just your marriage or your spouse's interest to be that

Laura: For your kids, your parents? Yes.

Kimberly: You have an identity apart from all of that. And it's helpful for everyone in your life to see that the emotional part of attraction is do I evoke emotions within others that they enjoy feeling? I love this one And this is typically the one people pause and say, oh my gosh, that is the question I have not asked myself. And immediately people begin to see this is what can help people see that list of things we need to change because if I think about my actions in terms of how does the way I act affect other people? How does it make them feel about themselves? It's so enlightening.

So if I think about this with my kids and my evoking emotions with my children that they enjoy feeling. If I think about yesterday, oh yeah, I'm telling you everything about yesterday. Last night was not my night, I was answering work emails after work hours, which I hate doing. But I was on my phone in my kitchen, my daughter was really just wanting me to watch her do a cartwheel. Like that's what she was wanting and I was like, boo me, that's what it's like, Bumi. Let me finish this and I'm sure I know I even dreamed about it last night and woke up this morning, I was like, she just wants to be seen, why can't I put the phone down right?

Like that's what has to happen. So just assessing myself, even like how do I evoke emotions within others that they enjoy feeling? What do I need to stop doing? What do I need to start doing that will evoke more positive emotions with the people that I love. And of course we can think about ways to do that with our spouse and then spiritual attraction is beliefs and values. So am I living in line with what my beliefs and values are is basically what that is because typically when people are acting against their beliefs and values eventually they will come to that point where they say, I don't like who I am, I've become someone I don't I don't know anymore.

So it's always important to make sure you're still living in line with that and when you begin working on those four things, you begin to change into a better version of you. So that's number one. So we're on your, the second thing I then encourage people to do from there is you've got to change the communication in your relationship and we call it smart contact or smart communication is another way to put it because a lot of times when people are stressed or anxious about their relationship, it comes out in a couple of ways either they begin to ignore their spouse because they think if I ignore them, then they'll see what they're missing and they'll want to come back to me and a lot of times that doesn't work well or they will over chase their spouse right?

Like they'll over analyze everything that we call it. They'll do these push behaviors where they'll plead, beg wine, cry, do that, like try to do anything to get their spouse to come back, which ultimately just pushes their spouse further away, even though that's not their intention because of the way they're acting, it's like I can't have all of this right now. So we encourage people to stop the push behaviors to manage your expectations. The whole acronym stands for S. M. A. R. T.

Actually stands for things, but it's just a new way to change the communication in your relationship. But the bottom ultimately what it is, is calm down the conversations that you're having. Stop fighting so much and you really just have to rebuild a foundation of how to have a conversation. Like your spouse is your friend, right? Like stop trying to get them to make a decision a lot with a lot of the people we work with, it's like that they need to make a decision of whether they're going to stay or go or they need to explain to me why they're doing this or you know whatever and it's like not there yet, you're not there.

All you got to do right now is have a civil conversation. Even if it's just about how was your day? If you can do it politely and without fighting, that's a win. And you're rebuilding that foundation for you to be able to communicate about more important things that are more emotionally charged later in the future. But you're not there now.

Laura: Oh yeah. So accepting where you are rebuilding good, strong foundation of friendship and caring and love? Yeah. Okay. So where if people want to learn more about the pies and smart communication, where can they follow you? Where can they get help from the marriage helper?

Kimberly: Yeah all the things, all those things in two different ways. If you're wanting more about your marriage and saying ah yes I need help with this smart, I need this more smartly communicate with my spouse. Then I would encourage you to either one of two things go to marriage helper dot com. We actually have a free mini course that you can get from the homepage which talks all about smart contact. It talks about the pies like I've mentioned, you can also find a ton of our free videos on YouTube by going to YouTube dot com slash marriage helper and subscribing there and then for the listeners who are saying, you know, I feel pretty good about my relationship but I really want to help me become better. I want to become the best I can be.

Then I have a podcast too. It's called, It Starts with Attraction and every week I'm talking about a different part of the pies, the P I. R. S and just making it applicable to people's lives. So you can go and subscribe to that wherever you listen to podcasts or you can go to the website. It starts with attraction dot com and there's a free attraction assessment there and all the things and you can see the past podcast episodes as well.

Laura: Awesome. Well Kimberly, thank you so much for sharing your expertise. It was really fun to talk about these things with you. We are at the violence, parent, we talked a lot about parenting, parenting does not happen in isolation. It happens in a family. It happens with real people often with partners and it's I think it's so important to support the whole family system. So I really appreciate you coming in and helping with that.

Kimberly: Oh, I so appreciate you having me Laura, thank you so much.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review. That really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out and definitely go follow me on Instagram @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes, look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus, I share a lot of other really great resources there too.

November 16, 2021

Episode 86: Teaching our Kids to Ask for Help with Nyasha Chikowore

November 16, 2021/ Laura Froyen

Asking for help can be so hard, for grown-ups and kids alike! Knowing when and how to ask for help and where to find support is an important skill that is developed with time and practice, that most of us are still learning. How wonderful would it be if our kids could learn this while they are young and the stakes are low? So, for this episode, I wanted to give you a resource on how to help children learn the important skill of figuring out when they need support and ask for it. Nyasha Chikowore is a clinical psychologist and a licensed clinical professional counselor who provides classroom and school-wide prevention activities related to mental health, with an emphasis on destigmatizing asking for any type of help. She is currently working on her doctorate in clinical psychology.

Here is a summary of what we talked about:

What parents and kids should know about asking for help
Tips on determining who is a safe person to ask for help, when we need it, and when we should reach out
Empowering kids vs rescuing them (this is SO good for our anxious kiddos!!)
Tips in getting support for depression and anxiety

To get more resources on this topic, check out linktr.ee/nyashamc and follow Nyasha on Instagram @nyashamc.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen here with another episode of the balanced parent podcast and I'm really excited for this topic today. We're gonna be talking about a really important topic that I hope will support you in making good decisions for yourself. So we're gonna be talking about how to ask for help, how to help our children learn the important skill of tuning in and figuring out when they need support and asking for it, but also how do you embody that skill ourselves?

So, to help me with this conversation, I'm bringing in a clinical psychologist. She's just wrapping up her doctorate and she's the author of a beautiful children's book, Gary Asks For Help. Nyasha Chikowore, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm really excited to talk about this with you. Will you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Nyasha: Sure. Well, I describe myself as a third culture kid because I've lived around the world. I was born in Japan, lived in the States for a little while, lived in Zimbabwe, which is where my family is from, lived in Switzerland for high school, part of middle school and found myself back in the States. And you know, went through undergrad studying as a print journalism major, turn into a therapy major as a master student.

Yeah, ended up becoming a licensed therapist in working in Baltimore City Schools with pre K through 12th grade. And now I'm getting this doctorate. So that's kind of the short of it all. My trajectory to writing this book.

Laura: Yeah. Tell us a little bit about Gary and how he asks for help.

Nyasha: Sure. So books called Gerry asked for help. It came out April 2019. So it's coming on to two years of Gerry's birthday and it's published by imagination press, which is a children's book imprint of the American Psychological Association. And basically I wrote this book when I was still doing therapy with adolescents and children.

And I looked at it as a way to address the apprehension of coming to therapy that I noticed more so from parents than children. So through the book we follow Gerry, the giraffe who turned six and he decides he should be tall enough now to reach the good leaves on like a shoe trees realizes that his clumsiness paired with his lack of height didn't really help him. And uh, he gets frustrated and his friends and community teach him asking for help is his best bet. And then that is the best bet and he ends up reaching beliefs that he was coveting at the beginning of the book.

Laura: Beautiful. So this message of asking for help, what is it that you really want parents and kids to know about asking for help?

Nyasha: Yeah. So the book actually has a note to parents and caregivers to foster that conversation. So it's really discussing the ins and outs of asking for help one. How do you do it to who do you ask for help? Three, Who do you not ask for help? Because that's also an important conversation and just how do you foster that confidence in knowing like I can do this but this I need help with or you know what is appropriate?

Laura: Yeah.

Nyasha: So those kind of things.

Laura: Do you have tips for like a parent who's trying to help a child tune in and figure out like who is a safe person to ask for help when we do we need it, when should we reach out? Do you have any, like, just kind of off the cuff things that parents can take home right now?

Nyasha: Well, I think one of the complaints some parents have is that, you know, if I teach my kid to ask for help, they're gonna ask me for help 24/7, I mean that is the easier way out, like, oh, you know, make up your bed, I don't know how to, you know, like show me how to do it, but I think for parents, it's, you know, it's important to foster that like we'll try it out yourself or show me what you can do and then I'll fill in the blanks, you know, and kind of fostering that confidence and not necessarily fostering the trickery piece of it that can happen. Yeah, being able to get around that and say, hey, I know you're capable of doing this. I've seen you do this before and try a little bit and then I'll help with the rest like that kind of conversation.

Laura: Yeah, I really like this idea. I've been having this conversation in a couple different places. This idea of empowering kids versus rescuing them, how parents can go about figuring out, like, am I rescuing my kid or am I supporting them and empowering them? I think that those are really important questions to be considering.

Nyasha: Right? And I think that's a great word that I was looking for empowering.

Laura: There's times when we don't know how to do something, when we do actually need help and there's a distance, a gap between what we can do on our own and getting the thing done, and that space is filled with support, but there is a tendency, you know, to prevent our kids from feeling struggle or pain or suffering because we love them, right?

Nyasha: And there's also the opposite end where, you know how to do it, so go ahead and do it, kind of retreating in that end, because I've witnessed that as well, parents being frustrated trying hard enough or you should know how to do this, you know, even like helping homework with homework, I think that that's where that shows up a lot, where it becomes, you know, a little punitive rather than empowering, you were taught this at school, why aren't you getting it? You know.

Laura: I think it helps. No one ever, I see what you're saying to this idea that I think it's important for parents to remember for all of us to remember that there's a difference between knowing how to do something or that we should do something and then being able to do it and there's a difference between being able to do it in some context and being able to do it in others, you know, we might need different supports in different places, you know?

So being able to you know, not to mess with a friend's work is maybe perhaps easier in your own house when you're comfortable and you can go get space versus at school when it's more difficult because there's not your own space to retreat to so that you can get regulated. You know, there's there's a difference between being able to do something in one location and context than in the other context. Doesn't matter so much.

Okay. And so then when we think about, you know, i it's interesting, So, you're in the therapy field. I'm formerly in the therapy field and now I see families who are kind of most of them are pre going to therapy. So most of them are trying to figure out is this something that I can handle on my own? Or is this something that I need to seek out support? And and what's interesting to me is that there is quite a lot of reluctance still, despite the fact that stigma against going for, you know, mental health support is reducing is going down.

There's still a lot of reluctance on the part of parents in getting their kids support, going like going in and seeing a therapist and I was curious if you had any messages that might be helpful for parents who are kind of trying to figure out like does my you know, my kid has something like what I think might be anxiety or my you know, is struggling in these areas? Perhaps they've got some depression going on, but I don't really know and I don't think it's bad enough yet to go see a therapist. Do you have anything for those, those families?

Nyasha: Yeah, I think one of the messages, not just for parents, but what everyone is not looking at therapy, like it's like the last resort we all have, well we're supposed to all have doctors that we go to for a check up. I look at therapy or at least I would like people to look at mental health in that way of, you know, let's go for a checkup because often you hear like, it's not bad enough.

Kind of like what you said, like, are we at the point where we need help or we at the point that we need to talk to a stranger about our problems, but looking more as a check in like, okay, let's go as a family to see if we're working well together because something we're not seeing, just like you'd go for, you know, physical because you're not expecting the doctor to pick anything up for two point something out. That's not good.

I mean we're hoping okay, he's gonna check me out and I'm going to have a good bill of health and then I'll do it again next year. Like, I would love for people to look at mental health, and seeking mental health as more of a check in and am I good? Like, is there anything that I'm saying that you're noticing or anything in our dynamics that you're noticing or even, you know, things have been going well, but little timothy has mentioned X, Y, Z and let's talk about that and unpack that and maybe it's just the one session thing and you're not coming back for multiple sessions. You know.

Laura: I love this idea of giving permission for it to just be one or two sessions. I think sometimes people think they're going to get in and it's going to be this long slog and it does not have to be that way, right? I always liken this to like taking care of your car, right? So there's things you do to take care of your car, regular maintenance oil changes without anything wrong rotating the tires.

Like now these are the things that you just a responsible car owner does, you know, and then lift the check engine light comes on, you go get that checked out, you know, all of those things and so figuring out like, okay.

So when do you need to check on our relationship, this happens, you know, when I was practicing couples therapist, it happened all the time where I would get a beautiful, wonderful, lovely couple in who came to see me three years too late, you know, and it was just so much damage had been done like you know and that's like when the car is like smoking on the side of the road and you can't drive it another inch like don't wait that long. The check engine light's been on for a couple of years now. Let's go get it in you know.

Nyasha: Yeah I just look at it as prevention to we take vitamins. We work out even if we don't want to like those are all things that can prevent you know issues down the line. I would hope that people see therapy as that versus more like we go there because we have an issue you know I understand how it's difficult to re imagine that as well.

Laura: It is happening. I think it's changing. I think I do think it's coming along. Another thing I talk about with a lot of my family is that I asked them to imagine so many of my parents I work with are only just discovering now that they've maybe had some anxiety their whole life now that they've maybe had ADHD. Their whole life. And that went kind of unnoticed flew under the radar and now they're as an adult they're figuring out how to handle those things. There may be going to therapy themselves.

And I asked them to think about like what could your life have been like if you'd had these skills 30 years ago if you had learned how to do a little bit of cognitive behavioral therapy with yourself, a little bit of thought work a little bit of processing, you know, as a teenager, what, you know, what a gift that would have been.

And parents usually, I feel like after they think about that, like, oh yeah, as an anxious person and anxiety has been my lifelong friend and I think back about two perhaps like when I was like six or 7 and I was having tummy aches every day and if I had someone who knew that I would like that, that was going on for me, you know, and connected the dots and had me in just the trajectory of my life could have been radically different, you know?

Nyasha: Yeah, that's definitely something I think about and I actually care games who has an amazing Instagram following and shows his videos with his daughter and his wife all the time where they have these vulnerable conversations. He's been a social worker. Yeah. But something he said was around that message, like, imagine if I had had this book or, you know, any kind of message of, you know, asking for help for being vulnerable at such a young age.

And I think that's my hope because even when I think of my upbringing, which I talk about living in different places for context, like I was a new kid a lot and, you know, it would have been different if I'd gotten that message of it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to acknowledge like this is uncomfortable and I'm scared and I'm anxious, but I didn't get that message and no fault of my parents, parents always do the best they can, but you don't as a parent.

I know that it's hard to imagine yourself at that age again, imagine that experience, you know, like I think of it as like when you walk into your childhood home and you realize how small things are compared to when you were younger and it seems so much bigger. It's, it's hard to, you know, have that perspective.

But my hope is that with having parents read books like this or have these conversations, they're able to put themselves back in their child's world of imagining, wow, that has to be scary to do that for the first time when if it's tying your shoe or meeting new people, like we forget as adults how intimidating those experiences are.

Laura: Yeah. Or even just how new they are. They don't even necessarily have to be big or scary. I really like the picture of a child who's at a fair and has a balloon in their hand and it slips through their fingers and they watch it float away and have their first real big experience of grief and loss. It's huge to them and it's so easy to say, oh, we'll just get you another balloon. It's no big deal, There will be hundreds of balloons in your life and one day your pet will die and your grandpa will die like that.

You have so many bigger experiences with loss and grief, but for that child, that three year old who's sitting there watching their balloon, their beloved balloon float away. That's the biggest loss they've ever experienced. That's a big deal to a kiddo. That perspective is so important as parents. Okay, so, another thing that I really love about your book and about children's books and books in general is that if we are open to it as we're reading them to our kids that they have really powerful lessons for us in them to can we talk a little bit about what you hope parents learn, not just what parents learn about their kids asking for help, but what maybe parents learn about asking for help themselves.

Nyasha: Yeah, I mean, like I was telling you earlier, like, I think it's a message for people 0 to 100 even, you know, for me, I've had moments where I'm like, I really don't want to ask anyone for help. I think I'll just figure it out myself.

Laura: why is it so hard to ask for help?

Nyasha: I mean, I think there's a lot of different layers to it. I think part of it is just feeling a sense of weakness, like I should be able to, you know, in therapy, we talk about shooting and not.

Laura: Dreaded should.

Nyasha: But there is that message that we get like you should be able to do this and your X, Y. Z. Age and this is something that you should be able to handle. And even when we talk about feelings and emotions, you know, what are you crying about? Like what what are you anxious about? Like what is making you sad? And there's just this air of you need to get it together that I think we have especially in Western culture, I think there is this you know, it's an individualistic society where it's like you pull yourself up by the bootstraps, you know, you hear people saying I'm self made.

I got here by my own merits and you know in reality none of us are self made, none of us got here without the help of thousands of people that maybe we don't think about all the time. But you know we need community. But yeah, but we've just been made to feel like it's hard to ask for that. Even like back in the day when people would borrow sugar and milk like now that would be viewed as why are you at my door? Like what are you asking for? What? Why are you here? And maybe not, but we do have that sense like if I ask for this, I may be appear to be weird or or weak or incapable.

Laura: No, that feels really, I don't know, scary and vulnerable to think that perhaps we can't do it all, or perhaps we need support.

Nyasha: and I think too on the other side of that is just being faced with possible rejection and nobody wants to be rejected in any form or fashion. So there is the possibility that one I opened myself and I'm vulnerable and then two, I get shut down, the person says, nope, can't help you, sorry, and it's like, oh man.

Laura: Yeah, what does that mean about me? You know? Or just like they say, oh yeah, I'll help you, and then they dropped the ball and you don't actually get the support, Like there's we could make so much meaning. We tell ourselves so many stories about what that might mean about us, how they feel about us, our worthiness, all of those things, it's a big deal figuring out that, okay, so this is something that I need support on and then actually taking that next step is also a huge barrier I hear about, you know, figuring out where do I go to get support? What is the level of support I need at this point in time?

And if I decide it's a professional that I want to get support from, not from my partner from a friend, then how do I go about figuring out what professional is right and where to go to get that, do you have any guidance for us because that having been in a major depressive episode in the past myself, that barrier of like even with all my skills. So I was already out of my PhD when this happened, I had all the skills, all the knowledge and it took me a couple of months to get over the barrier of like, okay, I got to figure this out. I got to find someone and get myself an appointment. Any tips for that struggle?

Nyasha: That's hard. I mean I'm still in my program and I know I have, you know, a fellow classmates and colleagues who don't want to go to therapy, there's like, no thanks. So we like to speak to your point, you could have those tools and it's still a hard move to make. I've always been pro like therapy, I jumped at the chance to go. But I think the most useful tools for me have been psychology today because they have a therapy finder.

Open Path Collective has also been useful they actually offer I think $60 sessions, but it probably depends on your location. Um They have like a directory of therapists who offer a sliding scale. Yeah, there's different websites popping up that, you know, appeal to your ethnic identity or racial identity if that's something you're looking for. And I know everyone loves therapy for black girls. I think there's a therapy for Brown Girls. So yeah, there's there's different, you know, I love google.

Laura: Yes, google one tip to as as you're looking for someone, you know if there's a specific thing struggling with, like for example, you're struggling with postpartum depression or your child is struggling with anxiety and you're looking for a provider. Finding someone who specializes in those things isn't available to you, looking through their profiles and if they are very, if they're a generalist that can be wonderful. But if you really have a significant problem that you really want to focus on finding an expert in that person who specialize in that field to specialize, this can be helpful to you.

Nyasha: And a lot of those sites have, you know, the filtering has yeah, and look for job, therapist works with depression or issues. So, so yeah, there's there's help out there. I mean, it becomes more complicated when you think about insurance and co-pays and out of pocket, that's a whole another story.

Laura: It is. And then there's this piece of goodness of fit to finding someone who's a good fit and you know, I know, you know this research but goodness of fit is one of the biggest predictors of success and therapy of good outcomes in therapy. And so I always just want to encourage people as you're looking for a therapist, it is okay to have a session or two and be like, this is not working. Can you refer me to someone else who might be a better fit for me or to go find someone like a good therapist is not going to take that personally or you know, is it is going to help you find the person you need. Don't you agree?

Nyasha: Yeah, I always say that to clients and you know, in articles and podcasts like you may not like that person I've definitely been to some therapists from like, you can't help me and that's okay. I mean, I'm sure I've had one or two clients ghost me as well and I'm just like, I mean it's the name of the game we expected and it should be expected. Like people aren't going to come consistently all the time because life still happens outside of therapy.

Laura: And I think to just advocating for yourself, this is your therapy, it's your life, it's their job, you know, like it's so it's okay to be upfront and honest that, you know, I think I need a different fit, you know, this is we're not working on, you know, and and sometimes that conversation can be productive in and of itself and you can actually stay working with someone. It's actually quite good sometimes for the therapeutic alliance to have a client who will push back a little bit and challenge you. It can be very security building too.

If we think about it from an attachment perspective, I don't know, having someone who, you know, who can kind of meet your challenge, your resistance and adjust and be sensitively attuned and responsive to your needs. Like that's a healing opportunity in and of itself. I love going to therapy when I needed it the most, when I was in the deepest part of my depression.

I couldn't do it. And so that's something that was so interesting for me when I was in the checkup zone, like I've been feeling a little dull lately, like why don't I go check in with my therapist? Like that was so easy, when I was really needed it when I was in the car stalled on the side of the road phase. So hard.

So everybody listening, if you're in that kind of like, huh? You know, I'm not feeling my best, maybe I should go get checked out. Like go do it right then because you never know when the car is going to stall on the side of the road and then it's harder. Okay, any last little I don't know, tips, expertise, things that you want parents listening to know about asking for help, getting the support that they need.

Nyasha: Yeah, I guess I keep having that conversation. I think something which I'm sure you talk about all the time that we take for granted is how intelligent our kids are even at, you know, the age of two, we like

Laura: These are so wise.

Nyasha: so intuitive and they have a sense of awareness that I think we take for granted and I think that conversation could be life changing, you know, for a child to know, here's where I can go for help and here's how I can ask for help and just like, I guess I imagine a world where like all these kids read giraffe asked for help and then they're all like able to go to therapy and be functioning well adjusted adults and be able to help others and teach others. It's okay to be vulnerable and ask for help. I don't know like I'm thinking of it of a as you know, just spreading that that awareness that that we're talking about that asking for help is okay and fostering community is awesome and I think we're realizing that more now than ever.

Laura: Oh, I love that message and it's so powerful too to remember that kids learn best through modeling through what they see. So it's it's not just these direct conversations that we're having with kids and you know, I most of my listeners have the same goal as you to raise a generation of children who are going to just, I mean just take on this world and make such beautiful changes, but we got a model, you know, that that behavior in all areas that we want to see and this is part of it too.

So if we want our kids to be able to check in and ask for help and get the support they need. We've got to be doing that with ourselves, right? Thank you so much for this conversation. Why don't you tell us where we can find draft asks for help and where folks can go to follow you on social media. Drop all of those handles for us.

Nyasha: Sure. So like I said, it's published by Magination Press. So it's imagination without the eye because the imagination and.

Laura: I want to just tell all of our listeners. So this publisher is part of the American Psychological Association. And so books from this publisher has lots of extra support in them. Great, you know, notes to parents and educators, suggestions for conversations and um, they're lovely kind of wrap around books.

So they're not just a book that leaves you kind of high and dry. They're all written by experts in their fields, their beautiful guests here. And so just that publisher is a great place to go for evidence based books that are grounded in good theory and the latest research.

Nyasha: Thank you for saying that I love Magination Press. And that's one of the reasons that they stood out to me because they're part of our field. They love therapy and therapists. So that's how I got there. But yeah, imaginations, they are under apaa.org and publications. But you could also go to maginationpressfamily.org.

And you can find YouTube's there where we're actually the authors are actually reading the books out loud and you could play that in the background. It's available on amazon. It's also available on audible if you're, you know, in the car or just at home wanting to play it. It was narrated by a little, the car. I don't know how old he is now. I think he was five, maybe when he read it. The carry Green who was the son of Lionel Green who was Leo Rush W W. E. If you're a wrestling fan. So it's a really fun book and yeah, and you can follow me on, I think I'm NyashaMC, N Y A S H A M C on Instagram and on Twitter and you'll find little tidbits about my book writing process with Gary and how I got to be.

Laura: Awesome. Well thank you so much and I look forward. I hope we get to see more books out of you.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review. That really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out and definitely go follow me on Instagram @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes, look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus, I share a lot of other really great resources there too.

November 12, 2021

Episode 85: How Trauma Gets Stuck in the Body & What to Do with Irene Lyon

November 12, 2021/ Laura Froyen

Our kids may have experienced unpleasant events as they are growing up. This can lead to trauma that can affect their sense of safety and trust. and this can manifest as aggression, anxiety, and fear. As a parent, it hurts to see our child having to deal with that. And so for this episode, I have invited a friend. She is a trauma specialist whom I have admired because she helped me so much in dealing with my trauma. And we are going to talk about:

What is trauma and how it gets stuck in the nervous system
How to help a child who may have traumas
How to help kids handle their anxiety
Healthy aggression in kids and the difference between healthy shame and toxic shame

To get more support in dealing with trauma, follow Irene on social media and visit her website.
Instagram: @irenelyon
Facebook: www.facebook.com/lyonirene
YouTube: www.youtube.com/c/IreneLyon
Website: irenelyon.com/

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello, everybody! This is Dr. Laura Froyen and I'm so glad to have you with me on the Balanced Parent Podcast today because I am bringing on a guest that I have to say I'm really excited about, she's someone who is a trauma specialist and who I have admired and been helped by so much in my own life. I just feel thrilled that I get to bring her on and we're gonna be talking about trauma and how it can affect children and how to help our kiddos out. So please welcome to the show Irene Lyon, I just love her in a door Irene I'm so glad to have you here, I'll stop fangirling now but will you tell us more about yourself and what you do?

Irene: Good to meet you and make that connection even though you've known each other for three years.

Laura: I know that people listening have the same feeling towards me at times you know and so it's fun to be in that place in that chair of just like wow somebody I admire someone I've learned from and now I get to share you with my community. I'm so excited.

Irene: Yeah, no I'm excited for our talk, we're gonna talk about some good stuff.

Laura: Absolutely. So why don't you just start us off and tell us a little bit about yourself, you know who you are and what you do.

Irene: Well where shall I start? I am currently sitting in Vancouver, British Columbia. So that's my home in Canada and I got into this work not my choice necessarily and not by accident but I just kind of followed a path after I graduated from high school that just kept me going on these journeys of learning about the human body, learning about biology, physiology, rehabilitation of the physical body, mainly because I had a few very significant injuries to my knees and my knees were injured through ski racing of all things So like hurling down a mountain, you know, really fast and all that stuff and had a lot of reconstructions on my knees, so fixing them. And when that was happening in my 20's, I was also studying exercise science and it was the injury that got me interested in studying the body.

So I got into that, got my degree, my bachelor's degree in Science, I was a personal trainer. I studied and applied human nutrition. I was working at gyms, all that, you know, kind of fitness nutrition thing. I felt like I was missing something and I knew I was missing something when I had probably not, probably, it was the worst injury of my life, my kneecap, so my patella broke in half spontaneously walking down some stairs after another knee surgery. It's a very long, complicated story.

But needless to say there's a reason why mob bosses break people's kneecaps in the movies. It really is one of the more painful things I've ever, I still haven't experienced pain quite like that. So I broke this kneecap of mine, my left one and had to obviously get surgery, reconstruction and the recovery after that wasn't so simple, it was not cut and dry physical therapy, it wasn't just about getting some exercises and stretching and balancing my body, everything in my system had been thrown off and so everything I had learned in back my bachelor's degree and my fitness degrees in my exercise rehab trainings, nothing was working for my own system. And so I kind of was like what the heck am I missing here? Because I just spent seven years learning in university.

My parents just put all this money you know into my education and I can't even help myself. So luckily I had a PT. Who was like something's not right here, you're clearly fit, you're clearly balanced like visually you look fine but there's something inside alright, there's something in and he didn't even use the word I think nervous system because that just wasn't how people talked back in like the 1999, 2000. But he said you need to go see this other colleague of mine who is also a PT. Who does something called the Feldenkrais method. I was like okay I'm like I'm super young right? I had no clue what I was doing.

So I went and did this work with this other person and for lack of a better you know word or long story short I did that work, concentrated for four weeks. I stopped all of my PT. All of the massage. All of the chiro. I did no more stretching. I did no more exercises other than swimming and walking and biking like the cardio kind of stuff and I was like completely shifted after four weeks. And what I did now that I understand what happened is I reprogrammed and re-patterned my movement and I got the shock out of my system From that injury from being on crutches for almost six months and all the things that go with it. Now that helped, that worked. I then decided to study the Feldenkrais Method in 2004.

I did that, loved it, Started a private practice and was still working in fitness. But then in 2008 there was a summer where I was just seeing a lot of people who weren't getting better even with this new thing. I had learned what the f is going on. Like, I just spent another four years training to work with the human body at a very deep level that helps me now, what am I missing? And so I started asking questions. I'm just always looking for answers. That's how my brain works. And I came across Peter Levine's work.

So this is where the trauma stuff comes in and somatic experiencing, which is his body of work and he's still alive to this day and I'm like, oh my goodness, this is another missing piece. And what I learned through finding that. And then I trained in that work was that our systems as human beings. We trap traumatic stress. We trapped the fight flight and freeze and we can get into that in our systems, but not just in our nervous system, in our tissues and our bones and our fascia and our digestion and our immune system in our brain, like in how we relate to the environment and it just blew my mind, I was like, oh my God, I need to do this and I need to do this hard and study it. So I did. And then even when I finished that, you know, there's always higher levels.

So I did more training with him at the master class level and then got into another branch of work that came from his work which was founded by a woman by the name of Kathy Kane and that's important for kids. So I want to bookmark her name, Kathy Kane with a K. And she also is a somatic experiencing colleague and when I met her, she was still in private practice and she was teaching. But what she was working with in her practice, we're adults who were severely unwell. Like chronic severe chronic illness, sensitivities, severe anxiety, health problems and what she was seeing wasn't classic trauma, like shock, trauma, like a car accident, trauma, that kind of thing.

But this low level chronic stuff that just didn't make any sense. And so with her background in touch and in body work, because that was her background similar to me, she started experimenting with working with things like the kidneys and the adrenals, the gut, the brain stem. So parts of the body that are very, they succumb to stress and survival stress very quickly.

And so what she discovered was that a lot of these adults when they were young, they lived in kind of a soup of stress chemistry whether they were born premature and had lots of surgeries when they were young, whether they had a really stressful abusive environment, you know whether there was a lot of strain in the family system because of poverty neglect like all these things and so she started to practice and work with the physiology in a very different way. And then the last thing I'll mention is one of her other colleagues.

One of my teachers also comes from that lens, but also from a lens of children who are adopted children who have severe troubles when they're young and how that not only impacts little life like when we're little, but how that impacts how we develop. So learning with all these amazing teachers. I was just like holy cow, there's a lot of years. I got into private practice and I was in private practice through those whole moments slowly over time as we talked before we started recording this. I've been putting things online so we can leave that part for later. But that's kind of what I do. I've got these lenses from biology, biomed sci oh and within that I also did a Master's degree in research, forgot that.

Laura: It’s a little thing, you know.

Irene: It's a little thing. I was doing my research in Australia when I was recovering that kneecap injury and it was being in that little seaside town in Australia that led me to this Belding Christ practitioner, they blew my mind open. So it was kind of this cool.

Laura: Amazing how things like that.

Irene: It wouldn't have happened if I was here in Vancouver because that world just hadn't opened up yet here.

Laura: Absolutely. Tell me a little bit more for our listeners, how does trauma get stuck in our nervous systems? Can you say a little bit more about that?

Irene: So the first thing is to define trauma from the somatic perspective and lens that I come from. So like I'll often say if anybody watches those shows like Grey's Anatomy and ER. Which I have, you know, when someone comes in with the ambulance, they go to the trauma wig or the, you know, it's the ER and they've got a trauma and there's a trauma surgeon. So that's one kind of trauma, like there's been a gunshot wound in a car accident. They had a trauma to me, that's accurate.

And then there's this other world that I live in which is the somatic healing nervous system world, we see trauma not be avenged per se, but in the somatic body and in the nervous system and the reason why we see that is we know that one person who gets into a really, this is my classic example that if someone gets into a really minor accident, like a minor car accident, like no scratches to the cars, a little boof fender bender, nothing too big. one person who gets that kind of accident, We'll just be like, oh damn, that sucks. And you know there's no damage, they drive away and they're fine literally.

Like they don't have any troubles there, just 100% of the way they were before they got into that little thing. Person B. For example, let's say they get in the exact same little tiny thunder fender and their whole life falls apart afterwards. They can't get back into a car, They get anxiety, like severe anxiety, they can't sleep, they're afraid to leave their house. They start to have symptoms of digestion, headaches, chronic tension, even though it's the tiniest little tap. So we look at that, it's like, well as the trauma in the accident in those cases not the stress, the traumatic imprint is within their system.

And so the question is, well why did person A just walk away fine with no troubles And person B is like a mess. And this is something I would see in practice all the time. My colleagues will vouch for this is that person B while they may have been living their lives fine. And I say that with air quotes fine. There was already a fullness to their system that was maxed out already. So much storage Strauss what we would call even dis regulation of the autonomic nervous system which is the fight flight and then the other portion is what we would call the freeze and we can go into those branches if you want.

But they didn't realize, typically they don't know that they're already living in that warrant of high stress. Hi, hi store trauma. And so when we look at it from that perspective, the system dictates whether or not we are resilient, whether we bounced back strong.

Laura: Yeah. So it could be like the same piece of straw. You put it on one person's pile and it's fine and then you on the other one. It's the last one they can handle in this system.

Irene: Yeah. Looking at it.

Laura: Absolutely.

Irene: And you know what's interesting is when you work with these people, eh, it's not their fault. They don't know because it's actually more prominent than we realize in society. How many people are walking around with their cups full right? But when you start to question them and inquire in session in private practice, they start to say, well, yeah, I've never really slept very soundly. I've never had a full bowel movement that's properly formed. I have trouble with my immune system. Whenever I get a cold for the flu. I'm out for six months. Right. That's not normal in a healthy system.

Getting sick isn't bad. It's how quick does our system responds to it. I always snap at my kids when they want to be expressive. I just can't handle it. I know that I shouldn't scream at them and send them to the room but I just can't handle the singing and the dancing, it's too much. Whereas person B their little ones start to sing and dance and they join, they like have fun, you know that kind of thing. So those are just two little examples but you start to piece together and then when you start working with these people they say, oh yeah, well yeah, I had that. I had that surgery when I was I forgot I had that surgery when I was three to fix a heart defect. It's like what? You never told me that or yeah, my mom, she had to go away to the hospital for six months because she had whatever problem.

And I was left with my real evil aunt. Like I've heard these stories before and they don't think of that as bad because they weren't beaten, they weren't neglected with, not, you know, they had what they needed. But there was something that just wasn't right. And so you start to hear these stories and that is a sign that is the history that shows that that little person when that big person who's person b his life fell apart after the car accident that they actually were under a high level of stress growing up and they didn't have the tools and they didn't have the modeling and the person, the adult mature human to help them come out of that stress response. And so what happens Laura is that, let's just say we have that kid who you know, is being looked after by the evil and the evil stepmother or wherever you want to call. It's always the evil stepmother, isn't it? It's never the evil stepfather. One of the two.

Laura: Let's not put that on set moms.

Irene: I know the adult that is not doing what they should with the kid, we'll just go there. You know, they don't realize it, but it really impacts that little system and that little system never had a chance to cry freely and let that stress out or scream. I hate you. I want you to die. Right. These are the things that little people want to say when they're being harmed. But if they know that if they say that they're going to get more hurt or more shut down, they'll actually shut up will stop expressing themselves. Okay.

Laura: So I had a lot of listeners who just right there and in that moment thought to themselves, oh wait, so you mean, what should I do then when my kids says, I would think it as a kid, I would think in my head, but I would never let myself say it out loud and my kids say it out loud to me all the time and I welcome it.

I hope I try to figure out what's going on that they feel like they need to do. You know, I feel very curious about because lots of parents, things like that, so disrespectful. I would never have said that to my parents, how come they can speak to me that way? What do we do when they say I hate you?

Irene: Well, yeah, I mean, I think why is the little one saying that is a question to be so usually okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna change a gear. For example, if we think about the wild, like if a mother bear has her cute little baby cubs, you know, they're so cute. If that mother bear swats the cub because it's about to fall into a hole, right? Or is doing something that's going to harm them, like playing with a bee nest or something? Yeah. The little baby bear the cub isn't going to say mama, I hate you. Why did you just yank me away from that danger? Right? It won't and it won't for a few reasons.

One, they're animals, they're mammals, but they are not as complex as us with the higher brain. And in that environment, you have to teach the cub to not do that thing dangerously right? Because it will risk its survival. And basically that's what it comes down to in the wild is survival, right? So if we think about us as humans, God we’re so complex because we don't raise our kids exactly the same here as someone would over there versus across the street versus in the southern hemisphere. And it's not because we shouldn't raise them the same. It's just, we've gone off this track of domesticating plants and animals, industry, agriculture.

I mean, it's a long story as to why we're not just treating our babies in the way that we should. So if we think about the, the moment when the infant or not the infant, the toddler, the five year old can say that. So one thing would be, is there a moment in life either that week, that day or for four years where the parents and this is going to be, may be triggering for some, didn't understand their own emotions and survival, stress and physiology. Therefore they didn't allow their offspring, their cubs to be truly who they are.

And so is there a riff in that healthy aggression and the parent that doesn't have the capacity to maybe enforce a strong boundary and rule, don't touch that hot stove, you don't pull the dog's tail share with your sister, whatever, right? You know, you can't have cake for dinner. Like all these things like I hate you, I want, it's like, oh, that's okay, that's fine. But we're going to eat this. This is what we're eating tonight, right? Anyway, the first thing is as the adult and this doesn't have to just be a parent.

This can be someone who is working with kids at school like a nature because God only knows I had some bad teachers growing up who were awful to us. You know that just how were they allowed to even be teachers, the things that they did and if I think about my parents generation and they're like you know, being hit with rulers and all these things, the adult, mature adult who's handling the child, do they have the capacity to listen to their own physiology and allow their angers and frustrations to come out so that they can then be with a little person and they're immature. We forget that children are totally immature right there, little cubs, they need to be learned. They need to learn these boundaries and they also need love, right? The mama bear is never going to make that baby cub sleep in a separate den.

Laura: Mhm. Yeah.

Irene: And here we put kids in their own rooms in the darks, even even infants, we put the baby monitor, there is a need for that connection. So here's, I mean this is, it goes so many places here. But it can be so simple as little Johnny really wants to sleep with mom and dad because he's scared because he thinks there's monsters in the closet. But no, you're a big boy, you have to sleep in your room by yourself.

He does it because if I defy that I don't know what's going to happen to me and then the next day at breakfast when he tries to assert himself. No, I want that for breakfast. No, little Johnny you have to have this, I hate you. It's not about the food necessarily. He was denied that soothing. That fear that he had with the monsters in the closet. You know, come into the room, I might want to sleep with you, go back to your room and I'm just this is like an example right?

Laura: Yeah.

Irene: So there's these ways that these little things we don't think of, they show up later and it could also be you know a little one who had a surgery when they were young and they don't cognitively remember it because pre verbal when a baby can't talk when a kid can't talk yet they don't log the memory in their cognition. It's somatic.

But let's just say a little one was born with a bit of a defect and had to be rushed into hospital or was in hospital had to be rushed to the ER had to get fixed and they sense mom's not here. Why did you let this doctor do this? Even though they don't understand this had to happen to save its life. There will be in many instances a stored somatic. You didn't protect me. Where were you? You know, why did that defect happen? And this is not the parents fault. You know we have no idea why sometimes we do.

Right? But so that can transfer. It might have nothing to do with sleeping or school. It could just be let's just say little Johnny is finally old enough to say what he wants and punch his fists and then all of a sudden that old somatic imprint of why did you let me go to that? ER like why did you leave me alone? Why didn't you come with me? Even though he doesn't cognitively get it? There is an anger.

Laura: It's visceral.

Irene: It's visceral. The thing I've learned Laura, of all the years working with parents and kids, I've worked with some kids. They are not trying to harm us. Of course not right. They're not trying to be difficult. They're not causing a tantrum so that we can go to our grocery shopping. Like it's not, it doesn't compute they are putting out something like I hate you because somewhere along the lines maybe we miss attuned to them and that's not a crime that's just part of learning to be a human in this world where there isn't the simplicity of mama bear has cubs and just protects the crap out of it

Laura: And doesn't have anything else to do for them.

Irene: And that's all she does. You know, if you thought about that for a second, it's like my God, imagine if every single human, you know, Utopia had pregnancies that were filled with joy and sleeping whenever you wanted and having the food you craved when you craved, it had massages and just chill and bathing and then you have the baby and this beautiful environment where there's no fluorescent lights. I mean we're getting to that more women are wanting to have their babies in home without the stress.

Laura: Yeah. But also in a culture where you're not going to have to go back to work in six weeks, even in a year because a child's nervous system is still super underdeveloped at a year. Yeah. For dads too, are, you know, we don't have work schedules that demand our presence for so long. And so then of course we need unbroken sleep. It's our whole system is not set up to support optimal development for children.

Irene: Our system in certain countries, I would say there are some countries in Europe, namely Scandinavia and I'm not good at pulling stats out of my brain, but I know that Iceland in the past has been written about because they get some crazy amount of maternity and paternity leave, No questions asked. Like you don't have to be working with a company,

Laura: It's like universal, right?

Irene: Like self employed. If I was to have a kid, I wouldn't get maternity leave, like I'd have to save to be able to not work for save two years, which is what I would want to do because I know how important that development is. And so if I think about my mother is from the Philippines and when I go back and I've been to the Philippines many times to the barrio, the little village. Those babies aren't in their own room, they're not in a crib there, sleeping on the mattress on the floor with five other family members. It's on the mother when they're cooking, there's no fancy devices, there's no toys at all. I'm dead serious here.

They just played with their, interacted with their passed along to all of the family. And this is, you know, in a healthy environment because of course there's also unhealthy environments in such countries, but there's a bit more of that kind of in arms as we would call it. The continuum concept, jean lee laws who wrote about this beautiful book in arms, child rearing. But it's not this fancy thing, it's what animals in the wild do right? They carry their babies all the time, they don't leave them. I mean sometimes they might have to leave them for very for whatever reason. Obviously birds do that mammals primarily are kept very safe and protected until they can fend for themselves.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's a lot of pressure on parents and I do want to take us back into the kind of what do we do if we see our kid as a kind of an overflowing nervous system. But I do want to just mention that there's a lot of pressure. And I think like there's this ideal way, the way that human animal babies are meant to be cared for and nourished. And then there's the reality that humans are in right now.

And so there's so much room for grace and compassion and just you know, full acceptance of whatever experience it was that the people who are listening found themselves in without any pressure or judgment on kind of what was available to you at the time. The knowledge is available to you, the resources because in our world it takes a very well resourced family to be able to have that type of existence. I know.

Irene: Very hard.

Laura: It's so hard.

Irene: You know, it's very hard and I mean, you know, I have a saying that I don't know when I started saying this, but it goes along the lines of it's no one's fault and it's everyone's fault and it's very Jordan B. Peterson right? It's like, it's kind of this we have to realize that we didn't know, but we also have to realize that now we know and we have to do better.

Laura: Yeah.

Irene: And you know, it's such an interesting thing because the parents that I have worked with who have and this is what's so cool Laura, right? And I know we want to get into those other pieces. But if we think about traumas, you asked me about trauma and what what is it? It's intergenerational, right?

It transfers through generations. I even believe in a lot of people don't like this, but past life trauma, I believe in that I believe in a soul and carrying on of us passed when we die and all these things and I've seen people who have stopped the entire lineage of their ancestry and have healed it in a matter of a few years. We think about that. If we really look at the macro when you have the right science and the right practices and the right mindset, we can actually shift some of these really insane ways that we've raised our young in a matter of like a couple of years And for some that might seem before you look at it that way. It's like what I have to do this work on myself for 2-3 years to be able to.

It's like, yeah, but think about how long that lineage of dis regulation and not allowing you to express and feel and how that wasn't allowed from your parents and their parents and their parents and now sure your kids 12 and yeah, you did some bad things when you were young with them and you didn't know, but now you can work on yourself and that 12 year old just picking 12 for some reason, sees that mom or dad is moving and having fun in the kitchen or is Setting a boundary in ways that feels good as opposed to toxic and you start to shift these things and then that little 12 year old who has a life ahead of them then starts to have this different energy around them and it's just, it's brilliant to see. and I've seen it enough times to know that yeah, we've done some stuff that hasn't been right and it's actually important I think to say, yep, that was wrong and that sometimes isn't liked, we can say you did the best you could and you did and that was also wrong and that's okay, we have to shift it, we have to heal X of that thing that was wrong.

And it's like with kids when they do something wrong, we actually have to tell them that's not right, right? This is part of healthy shame, which is another controversial topic, right? It's like, but that child they don't hear with a strong stern voice, don't touch the hot stove, don't do that strongly, it won't viscerally register and they won't know they won't learn right. And so I think we've gotten a little afraid to be stern with compassion, not just with our kids but with ourselves even.

Laura: Yeah, you know, it's funny, my my kid, everybody listening will probably think I'm the, you know me to be so kind and so compassionate and so loving, but my kids call me strict and stern, good times and so and that's that delicate balance a boundary and a limit can be held firmly with grace and compassion and kindness at the same time, they're not mutually exclusive, no.

Irene: And if they have a boo boo because they just fell off their bike, you're going to love them up and take care of them and not get mad at them for falling off their bike

Laura: Of course not, no.

Irene: exactly. And that's the discernment, right? That I think is missing. It's like, oh, well she's saying to have these strong rules and boundaries, but then when my little one starts crying for no reason, what do I do then? And the thing is, is that's a great question. If someone's at that interface being like that shows that they're stopping the reaction and being like, okay, what should I do here? And if someone doesn't know, again, this is the whole, it's not your fault, but it's everyone's fault. We don't know because somewhere when we were young, we weren't given that. And it's like, okay, I need to ask for help. Well, what? And then I might say, well, what is your gut feeling is that I just want to hug them, We'll just hug them.

Laura: No, listening will be lost. No, like, like there's so much time. Okay. Yeah. So I feel like there's two directions I could go here. One is like, I am certain that therapy listeners who are recognizing as we're having this conversation that they themselves are the person who has this kind of full cup, their nervous system is loaded right now because of things that have happened in their past, because of a year of living in a pandemic.

Like all of those things, right? And then there also are people who are listening who are thinking like, okay, I recognize this in my own child, like I, my oldest has a history of trauma, I recognize so much of her and what you're saying, you know, so she, We had a traumatic birth, she had breathing issues and so had a nick, you stay with forced separation where I was not allowed to hold her or touch her for 12 hours, it's still there for her too. She and I cry together and she has another one other significant trauma. She was, you know, a bicycling accident where she was run over by a bicyclist and broke her leg.

And so like I can see I've always seen this in her nervous system and doctors never believed me in her, like in her immune system. Like you know when she gets sick she gets really sick, like high fever fast. I've always seen that in her that's evening out and soothing, but she's always been super, super sensitive, super, just just loaded, just loaded and so like if, and I know lots of my listeners because they find me because I got to get to like this, I know lots of my listeners have a kiddo who whether or not they can pinpoint the stories so clearly as I can, I was looking for them because just because of the background, I have, who have these kids that they can see that their nervous system is at capacity. Yeah, strange. So what do we do for how can we help our kiddos is what I would love to ask you?

Irene: The first thing I think what just happened where your emotion came in was super important because it clearly is still very alive in the field. And that's okay. And then I'll also say if we think so, I'm going to I'm going to paint the picture. So she was born. It was traumatic when a little one has some kind of trauma.

At first, there's so many things that happened right? Their system goes into what we would call a near death preparing for death state. And when they're that was she full term when she came out, her nervous system was working, the autonomic nervous system was working and that her, her digestion was probably working her urine development immune system, not so much when we're born, develops those sorts of things, but her system would have gone into a shock and then you take, you know, into the ink you and separation there can then be and again, I'm just, this is not necessarily hurts.

You don't know all the stories making very general her system can go into them, what we would call when it realizes no one's coming, What we would call collapse. So I mentioned fight, breathe like the bears coming and I'm like trying to fight off there or oh my God, I can't get away from the bear. The tiger better start running. That's the fight, Ashley, I'm gonna flee from danger if I realize that I'm getting away from that bear or that tiger, my system will go into what's called a freeze stay to numb out the pain of my throat, about to being, you know, taken by this animal that just wants to eat because he's hungry, gruesome visual.

But so I go into that shut down. Now, here's what's interesting and the wild, if I am like the impala, I get eaten and I'm done. Like if the tiger or the lion or whatever gets distracted, I then run away, I'm fine. I go back to my hurt and everything is groovy. I don't talk about it after that. But if we think about a little one there in distress fighting for their life, they then get help. They don't know though that what's helping them is helpful.

They just know danger. Danger, danger, something's not right. And usually what occurs is a collapse of their system, of course, because your daughter is alive and well, they survive. And so humans are so interesting because we've got this resilience to just keep going, even when we have these survival stressors, because she has, you, you know, and she has probably her things in her books and whatever it might be that keeps her engaged. So we like we add this engagement that helps us. But then there's still this underlying stress physiology that's running in front of our bus, so to speak.

And so the first thing to go back to your question is super important for parents to understand this deep science. And the reason why is because when we can understand that physiological level and accept, yep, she almost died. She didn't thank God, you know, thank your gods or whatever you do for that blast gratitude. But then okay, but she's also a little animal that went into near death was, you know, recovered.

But there is still a shock in the system and the shop it sounds like is caught in the immune system. And this is just now what you said about the fever in the autonomic system of regulation and when something comes in that is remotely foreign, it's like the entire army gets ready to uh it's like okay, we got it because when she was little she was like, she couldn't fight, had to be there. And so this is where I get excited because there's so much complexity to this because we see there might not be this connection with the pediatrician or the specialist that that gut problem or the inability to process dairy for example, using that there is not bad but just whatever has nothing to do with dairy or the food or the fiber for the pollens in the air from spring because it's springtime.

Now your allergy season there, that immune system was on hyper alert when she was an innocent. And so it knows how to go into hyper alert mode as a child and a lot of the doctors, they won't make that connection. So, I've made that connection for everyone here. It's not a coincidence if there's a behavioral problem or an anger problem for a digestive problem or a cognitive problem, if you know, there was intense stress and it hasn't been dealt with head on. And so does that make sense before I go on?

Laura: It makes complete sense to me. I mean this is I've always just intuitively known this about her that there is a you know, when she has a reaction that just looks so big, it's our kind of our training, our cultural conditioning to be like that's not okay. That's an overreaction and may perhaps it is, but it's that overreaction. It's very easy to see that that is not within her willful control. That that is just how she's wired right now to react.

Irene: Exactly this is why the understanding of the serious super important because when you can understand the language of the autonomic nervous system and that fight flight freeze And then you haven't she's eight?

Laura: She's eight. Yeah.

Irene: So you have an eight year old, a six year old, a seven year old, a 16 year old, 50 year old, it doesn't matter because it carries with us. That's the other stuff with these early things, they don't go away with time. And so someone who is 70 years old may have had that birth trauma, like you just talked about and they've never made the connection that their outbursts of anger or digestive problems for their auto immunity or the depression is caused from that early imprint. And we know through the research namely the adverse childhood experiences, study that it's pretty it's not even a theory now, it's pretty damn.

Laura: It's science. Yeah.

Irene: like this is true, like when there is this early adversity this happens.

Laura: So and there's the epigenetic piece of it too.

Irene: And then there's, there's not too.

Laura: my daughter is also the great granddaughter of an Auschwitz survivor too. And so there's that piece of it that just there.

Irene: So she has got the potential to be this insanely amazing human, which she is because these things that she's feeling are going to give her so much capacity to understand all these things. Like it's kind of cool when you think about it, the understanding of the education is important and then the next thing and this is by no means like a step list that I'm just these are things that are coming do not underestimate what might need to happen for that healing to occur. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna share a vignette a case that I know of where the little the little human had brain surgery when they were really young, like massive problem with something, I don't even remember what it was.

So lots of surgeries more like tons and tons and then as she grew up, there was this huge developmental delay, anger maybe even classified on the spectrum, which I don't love that because it's like well this is a trauma response coming out. Her system is screaming. And then the work that was done to help wasn't teaching her how to manage her anger, how to read and write. It was literally allowing her to rage against the doctors that operated on her when she was an infant.

And so things like taking, you know, I'm just this is my husband's story but taking the skeleton that we have in our office like we have a skeleton with eyes and bones and she wanted to hurt it and he let her he let her light matches and burn his eyes out. Complete psychopathic annihilation anger not in a way that was destroying to her. There was so much anger so much I hate you back to that.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Irene: He let her make believe and he's not going to hurt the skeleton. It's you know, an inanimate object. But the feeling of getting her rage rage out was so important. But then after time and time and time she wanted to then he'll let him patch Mr. Skeleton up. So they would take band-aids and they would color things on him and slowly over time the behavior has changed. The attention changed. The fear changed. That's just been yet to show parents and anyone who works with kids, The kid knows what needs to be done to heal us. The big person or the therapist who has to let go of all reasons.

Laura: Yeah, we get in the way.

Irene: In from space.

Laura: But we like, I mean we have to trust our kids. I teach a course where I teach parents how to do play therapy with their kids. And it's so much of it is exactly this teaching them that, you know, just because they want to cut the head off their doll does not mean that there's some psychopathic thing. They've just got some thing that they're processing. We don't even have to know what it is. Like it's not our concern. It's not our business. Just trust them. They'll do it.

Irene: And what's interesting about what you said is like if that doesn't come out, this is what leads to people.

Laura: Yeah.

Irene: The others later in life. I mean the stories that are out there around Ted Kaczynski the Unabomber, I have a video on that. Actually. I don't want to get into the full story. We could spend an hour on that is an important one to follow up because he was put in a hospital at age six weeks for a week, uh, strapped down in a bed left alone in a room. I think it was six weeks. We had a rash all over his body and so they probably pumped him with steroids, take the rash down. I mean, I get angry just thinking about it and then the mother, because the mother has been interviewed like, what the heck happened? It's like, well, I don't know, he was a really happy baby until this happened.

And when I got him home from the hospital and I think about it, that was probably in the 40s, 50s, I'm not sure the age that he's not now, he was not the same. He had collapsed, he was limpless, listless, there was no energy in him. And so then we look at what occurred in his life. He went on to harm other people deeply. So do not underestimate the power that the kid has to heal themselves. We have to facilitate it. We have to allow them to express all emotion and not try to reason with them.

This has never happened with me, but one of my instructors Steve, like, he's worked with kids who have suffered severe trauma and adoption trauma. All this. He's been punched in the face and bitten many times. Bye little five year olds who are coming out of their shock. So they're living in a freeze collapsed state. And so someone might be like, what the heck do we do? Sometimes it's the play. Sometimes we have to do more specific, it's called kidney adrenal work where we're actually talking to the stressed organs that ramped up the armor to fight.

So we have to, like sometimes it's just intention, Sometimes it's actual manually working with them. Sometimes really good osteopathic work is beautiful for little people working with their bones and their nerves and all of that. But he has been working with people where little Susie comes out of her deep shutdown and her animal comes out. She's not thinking fights the arm. That's where the I hate you comes out.

But it's not, I hate you. It's like get the f off of me. And then of course this is where the parents need education because usually the parents are in that room right at that age, They're never left alone with the therapist. I hope parents are like, and if they don't understand that, that is progress. The little one will hear the gasp, oh no, don't do that. And then you screwed it up.

Laura: Yeah, you shut it down.

Irene: And so this is why parents need to understand and they have to work on their own capacity to let their anger out. What aggressions are they holding in? What tears are they holding it? Because if we're as adults are far cup is full back to that car accident technology. If our pep is full and we don't know how to cry when we're sad. If we don't know how to say to our husband or wife, that's not nice.

Don't, don't talk to me like that. Hey, you forgot, like if we don't have that boundary, that healthy impression, how are we going to allow these immature animal cubs of ours to be who they are or to heal these old things.

Laura: You cannot give what you do not have had.

Irene: You can’t. And so that's again why I always say the first thing is understanding the science and the nervous system and what's interesting Laura is when a parent can open up to that or caregiver or teacher, they start to see things, the lens changes. He that weird behavior as something to be changed or corrected or punished. But they get curious with it. You're drawing a bunch of knives. What's going on there? Like tell me about that. Like what do those mean rather than should only be drawing rainbows.

Laura: Yeah, we don't have to be afraid of those things. And I think that this is of course not to say to anybody listening that we think you should just let your kid hit you or by, you know, of course not. It's about understanding where it comes from and the very natural and somewhat healthy thing that is happening here because our body is, our nervous systems, our brains are desperate for healing.

They want to heal there. They want to, they want to be whole and healed and so yeah, and so of course no, we're not saying you just let your kid hit you, but you understand that they are not hitting you because they're a bad kid or because they don't like you, they're hitting you because their nervous systems overwhelmed, they're attempting to there in that state, that flight or freeze state.

Irene: And it depends on the age, right? Like if it's an infant and this is why observation is so critical, like if there's an infant doing some odd motions of their hands and you can tell that it's not just a playing movement and I'm kind of using my arms right now, but it's got a very distinct pattern that keeps happening and maybe they are hitting us, let it happen so that that can be completed or play with that movement. It's like, oh, you're trying to do something, let's see if we can help you as opposed to stop that.

We have to look at these asymmetrical movement patterns that might come out that don't represent just general exploration of the limbs when there's an infant. If we think about a child who, let's just say is having a fit and maybe it's just because they had a terrible day at school and they hate their teacher, that's where we need to let them get it out. But depending on the age, that's where we have to teach. Okay, okay, okay, and we don't even want to say, you know, stop that. It's like, okay, okay, let's find something like, let's stomp our feet, let's growl, you know. So we don't want to say stop that because they're naturally getting it out and expressing what has to get out If it's a teenager who has more strength.

That's a bit trickier because they are now their own more adult human, they need autonomy, but you also don't want them to hurt, like literally hurt you or their siblings for the space. Like a five year old isn't going to destroy a house in the way that same year old will 16 year old might be able to drive right and harm themselves in that way. But it's like, okay, I see you really pissed. Like, what do we need to do?

We need to go play boxing. Like, what what is it? Like, come on, let's fight, but let's not hurt each other, right? And so you got to be really creative with the age. And I say that because I was like, Oh, well, she just said that biting my arm is okay, but you're certainly not going to want your 16 year old son to bite your arm. That might cause some real damage, but five year old not so much.

Laura: Yeah, and I mean, maybe we don't want our five year old biting our arm, but if you need to bite right now here, I've got something for you to bite, bite it, pretend it's me. You know, if you need to pretend it's me bite it, pretend it's me here, this is the part, you know, this is what you can buy, or hitting is good, hitting. You need to hit right now. Your body is wise here, hit this pillow. I'm right here with you. Hit it right next to me. I accept I accept I welcome all of those things.

Irene: There are some tools and I have a video or I'll share with you that you can share please. Yeah. Where tools are good and I have a few that I can. I did a video showing different tools to squeeze and hit and stomp and there's a way that you can do that where like if a kid wants to squeeze Using the forearm are like if I had my husband and I do this and he's like a big £200 guy, like he if he gets angry about something and if I've done something to pick them off, like he I will let him squeeze my arm.

The forearm is actually a really safe arm to squeeze. Yeah, it's not, the bicep is different because of the arteries in there. But I have this video where I'm squeezing his arm. I'm getting some anger out about something that happened to me sometimes, depending on the situation. That is a lovely way to get that tactile feel, especially with the little ones because sometimes they actually need to feel that aggression come out in contact with another human breathing biological system. But again, you got to differentiate, you've got to discern and understand what it is that you're doing because you don't want either personally get hurt obviously.

Laura: Right and full permission to, if you have your own trauma background in history, like something like that could be incredibly triggering to you to have, have that happening. Like if you know, if you're having your child do those things and, and of course full consent, you know, and not ever within an abusive relationship, not where there's an abusive patterns, You know, I'm just putting that container of, you know, for liability purposes.

Irene: A person is like, what is my arm and they instantly feel a trigger or an activation that no, you wouldn't want to do that.

Laura: I want to do it listen to your body.

Irene: Exactly. It's sort of like you even getting aggression out by growling for some people is to activating because they're healthy, aggression is never allowed to express when they were young. Yeah, I'm working with the adults that I have in my programs, like it takes sometimes months or years to build enough capacity for someone to even go girl like that. And for someone who just is like, oh, that's easy for some people. It's terrifying.

And so this is why a lot of the way we've taught getting out anger is just so not accurate because if a person's system saw anger in a violent way or was never allowed to express their anger and healthy aggression. It's like it's like speaking a foreign language and being terrified to even try.

Laura: Yeah, that's so interesting to me. So my every, all my listeners know that my girls are constantly pretending to be dragons And I don't know if you know, but dragons are quite loud. They roar very aggressively. The lovely outlet for their aggression. But there are certainly times when my cup is filled and there's this one specific sound that they will do sometimes that is just like it's just too much for me. And that's really interesting. And I like I was not my soft emotions were welcomed as a child but my aggressive motions like emotions. My anger. Not at all in note. Like mm super interesting. You've given me something to chew on their.

Irene: Chew on it.

Laura: Yeah. Cool.

Irene: That would be a good one that you want and based on the history that you share with your daughter. I'm going to make a very big sweeping jess that like you said you to cry a lot together and that's wonderful If we were to take that one step further. What is under the tears and with anger and sadness and grief they flipped. So a lot of times if someone like you said you were good with soft emotions growing up and that's wonderful. But sometimes tears are masking deep, deep aggression. Mm Sometimes deep deep progression is masking deep at this, right?

And it's kind of you know, we typically see and I'm going to make again a generalization. Typically men and boys are taught a bit more to be angry and aggressive and it keeps them from crying and then girls are typically taught you can be emotional and cry but you certainly can't show your anger. And here's the thing humans are humans and of course hormones dictate those. You know, the female is typically has more of that oxytocin connection nurture and that's to me fine.

But we have, we both all of us have the same six basic primal human emotions. And so it would be fun to like play with that I think can be like I wonder what's under there that could be explored so that both of you could explore that healthy aggression in a healthy contained way and she might be able to even help you bring some of that.

Laura: Yeah. You're giving me some really interesting things to chew on. I know so many women who when they are angry they cry so many. That's very interesting. Well, Irene I feel like I could just we could talk forever for hours. Thank you so much for your wisdom. I want to make sure because I guarantee there's going to be people who are like this is I need this. I need more support. Where can they go and find you?

Irene: Yeah, it's just my name dot com. So irenelyons.com and that's my site and that just can take you down the rabbit hole of articles and videos and my resources and downloads and of course my online programs and I have a drop in class that I do once a month that kind of guide people through the basics all that is there. I'm not doing private practice anymore but don't underestimate, I'll say to everyone the power of the online resources. I would say that because of the way they're formulated, it really can help a person gain that capacity to start to bring up these natural emotions that really when our nervous system has good regulation and our life force energy is back. The emotions just come in a natural way, right?

As opposed to trying to work with the emotions and figure them out. If we figure out those fight flight freeze elements, the somatic self and we get that lens on board. Not that it's simple and it happens like in a week and that's not how it works. But the other stuff, the behavior shifts, the emotion shift. The boundary shift kind of spontaneously when you do that more somatic nervous system.

Laura: Yeah, it's about capacity. Its capacity. And so I think if those of you who are listening who feel like your capacity is just shot, there's no capacity, there's no space. These are good options for you that this is not about. Oftentimes I think parents are looking for, you know, what do I say? You know, what do I do? What are the things I say? And, and if we are in a place where we are losing it with our kids, where we feel overwhelmed and like we have no capacity, the work is inward, the work is with us and so thank you for doing this work. I'm holding these spaces for, for folks who have work to do, we all we all do.

Irene: We all have work to do.

Laura: Yes, yeah.

Irene: No one gets out of this without doing, I mean of course people can choose not to, but yes, there's all, we all have something that we can work on and he'll and master to a greater level. So everyone's, everyone can contribute to the healing of all of us. Um but yeah, it does take, it comes down to that building of capacity and don't underestimate how that can trickle out into every.

Laura: yes, it's not self serving or you know, it is, it trickles out, it affects every single aspect of every person and system you come into contact with. Yeah, beautiful, well thank you again, I so appreciate you.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review. That really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out and definitely go follow me on Instagram @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes, look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus, I share a lot of other really great resources there too.

November 09, 2021

Episode 84: Conscious Parenting Basics with Sidu

November 09, 2021/ Laura Froyen

I am so excited for this episode because I have been talking about this topic in my community. Actually, this is the center of what I have been teaching which is conscious and respectful parenting. And so, I have brought a new friend and colleague to help us dive deep into what exactly conscious parenting is.

To help me in this conversation, I would love to introduce Sidu Arroyo-Boulter. She is a licensed professional counselor associate specializing in relational issues, anxiety, and parenting. She has pursued additional education in perinatal mental health to support new families. Additionally, she offers parenting support through her online community Instagram (@conscious.parents).

Here is an overview of our conversation:

Conscious parenting and what it means
How to handle kids' resistance
Importance of conscious parenting in relationships

To know more about conscious parenting, check out Sidu's website and follow her on social media. Website: newseedcounseling.com
Instagram: @conscious.parents
Facebook: www.facebook.com/theconsciousparents

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen, and I'm really excited for this episode this week of the balanced parent podcast because we're going to be talking about, a topic that I've mentioned in passing and that we do a lot of here but I've never actually formally introduced it and so I've brought in a new friend and colleague to help me frame this conversation and we're going to be digging into what exactly is conscious parenting like what do we mean when we say that and so to help me out with this conversation, I would love to have you all Welcome to the show Sidu Arroyo-Boulter.

She is a licensed professional counselor and she specializes in relational issues, anxiety and parenting and she is the genius behind the wonderful Instagram account conscious parents. So I'm so excited to have you here with us. You do, thank you for being here. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Sidu: Thank you so much Laura. Yeah, my name is Sidu Arroyo-Boulter. Like you mentioned, I'm a therapist, family therapist. I specialists in relational issues, anxiety. I've done additional training and preparing natal, mental health and I work with adolescents, individuals and families.

Laura: Cool. I always feel a little curious about how people get into conscious parenting because I don't know what your story is with it, but it was definitely in my training and my PhD program. This was not what we were taught, not a lot of what we were taught in terms of parents. Maybe my emotional and social development class got into some of it a little bit, but not a lot. So I feel curious about how your story, how you got into conscious parenting and kind of what it means to you.

Sidu: Your point is very much similar to mine. I don't recall much in my graduate program. Many conversations really around parenting certainly talked about child development and these aspects, but there wasn't much on the parent child relationship or at least nothing that went beyond infancy for me. I think conscious parenting that has been on my mind even prior to having children.

Laura: Oh yeah, your mom of two.

Sidu: Yes, I'm a mom of two. And so I have a background in education. I was a teacher and then school counselor for many, many years before moving into a family therapy. And there I worked not only on the academic part, but I was thrown into doing a lot of almost like parent coaching without really knowing much of what I was doing a side of from the few courses that I had taken in my undergraduate program at that time. And so I would have a lot of conversations with parents, a lot of concerns and my child doesn't, is refusing to do schoolwork or these sort of aspects.

And so we would talk about it brainstorm together and I think it kind of just formed for me from those early days and understanding more of what children need and at that time I think I had an understanding of if you will like the respect that children need to be the worst that children have, regardless of whether they're two ft tall or whatever it may be and that they are still fully human, but I think my approach even then it was still forming, it was still developing.

So while I knew all those things, I think there was still aspects of how I was teaching parents if you will or brainstorming together this idea of well children still need to respect you and then I became a parent, I was also doing my graduate program at the time and I just began to learn more not only of children development but also just the relationship, that aspect of what, how much we come into parenting with our own, if you will condition ing's our own experience of our own parents perhaps.

But even going beyond our own parents also what our society was like, our culture, our religion and all of these different messages that we receive from all over how we bring all of those into parenting and oftentimes we are not aware of these things were functioning with all of these aspects, all of these conditionings, we may be responding to our child in ways that we may not want to, if you will almost like ingrained or it's just something that we do out of

Laura: Habit, pattern.

Sidu: Habit yeah, something like that. I think conscious parenting is a lot of reflection on what are the areas that I need to grow and how can I honor and respect my child and then how can I continue to foster the relationship because at the end, I think that is what ends up driving a lot of what we hope is a relationship we have with our children.

Laura: I had very similar experiences. You know, I became a parent during my grad program as well and you know, so I was in a human development and Family studies program which is very much systems oriented. Was this big focus on becoming aware of your lens, in your research and your work with families, your position, al Itty in the world, all of the different layers and systems that influence you and influence your client and influence the parents that you're working with and that influence the child that you're working with.

There was so much awareness of this and then there's so much beautiful awareness of child development and attachment theory, but very little like putting together of those two things I found in my training that that for me that's what lots of the work of conscious parenting has been is figuring out. Okay, so if we bring this level of awareness of all of our lenses, all of our conditioning, all of the things that we thought were true, that we grew up thinking like this is what our internal working model of ourselves and others is this is the truth.

Our experiences are our truth. If we start thinking about these things, really looking at them from a little bit of distance learning to hold them out a little bit away from you, take a look and examine like, okay, so this is what I believe my whole life, maybe even what I had to believe for a long time to be safe and well taken care of. And then is this really true? And is this true for me, is this what I'm going to choose to pass on to my kids? That is a little stickier, right? So like what does that look like an action? You know, I don't know if you grappled with that a little bit yourself?

Sidu: No. Yeah. You know, you bring up such a great point right there as far as the so we have these lenses, you know, these conditions that we're observing and I love how you stated right there. It's like we can observe them almost. I often refer to it as like we created this little bit of space between this is what I have if you will known the internal working model and now I have a choice by creating just a little bit more space between what I have known and perhaps now what I can choose to do differently if something is not working for my family.

Now for the relationship I have with my child, I think that's a lot of the framework from when I work with families. That's one of the very beginning, things not only being aware of this systems that we have, but then creating a little bit of that space. Yeah, that's are able to choose.

Laura: It's so critical. So I feel like there's like two directions I want to go here. So hopefully we'll have time to go to both of them. But so the first one is, you know, thinking about lots of the time when parents come into my world and I'm sure when they come into your page there's this sense of, okay, so what do I do, What do I say? What do I say to my kids?

You know, they're resisting me, they're not putting on their shoes, they're not brushing their teeth. What do I do and what I always say and what I find so beautiful and lovely about conscious parenting, the way that I think we are aligned and approaching it is that there is not one Right way to approach this. There's you and your child and there's a million different combinations of scenarios and it's about awareness and trusting yourself and trusting your child. But oftentimes parents aren't there yet.

So for those of us who are listening and thinking like, okay, but yeah, what do I do to get my kid to brush their teeth? Can you speak to that kind of that tension of, I just want to know what to say. We're saying. There isn't necessarily a script to follow.

Sidu: Yeah, I 100% can relate to that. I do think that we both kind of approach it in a similar concept in there isn't necessarily this right or wrong or as I've been reflecting with parents just this week that a million different topics such as brushing your teeth, praising my child power struggles. There's so many different topics in parenting are many of these topics are Gray areas where there isn't necessarily one thing, one response, one answer. But there could be a variety of different responses.

There could be a variety of different ways of engaging with our child. Perhaps engaging with ourselves in those moments when my child is not brushing their teeth and possibly pausing and saying maybe I'm expecting too much of myself right now. That's not to say that we won't get to brushing their teeth. But what are perhaps what am I telling myself when my child is refusing to brush their teeth? Am I telling myself like everyone else is doing it better than I am or why can't I do this correctly?

These post on Instagram or these parenting, You know, people are saying to do it like this, but it's not working for me. There must be something wrong with me. That's where noticing that noticing even our own what we're telling ourselves is crucial to this idea if you will of conscious parenting because there isn't necessarily a right or wrong way and it doesn't mean that we're messing up or that we're ruining our child or that we have failed. If it doesn't go according to the scripts that we often read or see on a blog or watch YouTube video.

Laura: Deep in this one more level. This is the beauty of conscious parenting. It's also an opportunity, every single one of those moments where there is a resistance and pushback is an opportunity more deeply understand yourself to understand these stories and meaning that you might be making like you were just saying like this, there must be something wrong with me. Well, where did you first hear that?

Like when did you first think that you know, oftentimes we heard that very messages kids, you spilled your juice again, what's wrong with you? We heard like the very message. And so each one of those opportunities as an invitation to deepen our own understanding of ourselves to offer ourselves compassion and kindness and in doing so, be more able to very, very authentically be more open to connecting with our child and seeing them clearly were aware of those things and we're healing those things. They don't get in the way anymore. And then we're able to see our kid.

Sidu: Yeah, No, I, I'm 100% on board with that. Absolute. Yeah, I think that's very true. That has been my experience as a parent. That has been, my experience is just in working with other families and that we are able to reflect on our areas if you will of growth, the way that we're understanding ourselves, the way that we're understanding our child, then we are able to authentically respond to them, which may not go according to the script that someone gave us.

Laura: Yes, absolutely. And this allows for quite a bit more flexibility and room to be human and let it be a little bit messy and have it be okay and not perfectly scripted. Okay, so then another question I want to ask you that I get often, I think that you know, folks who are new in this area are kind of starting to dabble into relation based relationship based approaches to parenting is this idea that the relationship is the focus, not obedience, not compliance, not necessarily even necessarily discipline, but that the relationship is the focus and that's where we get, you know, that connection is the source of influence. And so I was curious if you could speak a little bit like how do you see the focus on the relationships, the importance of it and what that actually looks like in practice?

Sidu: Well, first I guess let me start off by saying that I do believe that we are wired for relationships right off of the bat as humans. We are wired for relations. We are not meant to be in our own little island and this isolated from people or whatever that may be. And so with that framework, we do need our child needs that relationship with us in a similar way that I need, that we as adults need others.

I guess the phrase of the village hard right now in this pandemic even more so for being able to create villages and so with that in mind then, you know, if when I'm approaching as well with families or people who are new to this world, it's a huge mindset shift for families to move away from this idea that my job as a parent is to ensure that my children will obey that my children, you know, and if they don't, then there's punishment or isolation or whatever it may be. And I think that comes back to, if you will almost like once again, a mindset shift where sometimes I do wonder whether or not with our systems, which we had already talked about behind some of these, there's an underlying sense of children are not good in their being.

And so it's my job to get them to be good, which from my approach, children are already good in there being and they already are worthy of everything that you and I are. And so then we do approach our child or from a relational approach. That's where these other aspects. If you will this idea of like more compliance. When I ask you to brush your teeth or when I ask you your shoes on all of these things come from, if from the child's perspective, if you will, my parents sees me, they accept me. I feel safe with them of course.

Like I want to continue to be in a relationship. And so perhaps when they asked me to brush my teeth, I'm more willing to comply. Not 100% of the time. Because let's be honest how often sometimes we as adults, we may have a very long day. They say, you know what, I'm not washing my hair today. Maybe we're going on 56 days or whatever it may be. The you just say I'm not going to do it. And that's also that part of understanding that's also going to happen with our children. Some days, they may say I really don't want to brush my teeth and so we have to navigate. Okay

Laura: It should not be radical. But what you're saying is that kids get to be human. They do. They get to be human, just like us. What is it then about having a connection, having a solid relationship, a solid sense of my mom or my dad sees me, they understand me, they value me, they want, you know, they really accept me and love me.

How is it that that in your in my experience, that sense of a child feeling very firmly rooted in that can on some days lead to more pushback and freedom to resist. And but then on the other hand also leads to beautiful cooperation and willingness to kind of come along. What's up with that dynamic that happens sometimes.

Sidu: I would say that that pushback is there's certain times when we may need to be clear on our boundaries and if you will hold the boundary or hold the limits perhaps, but if my child is giving me pushback, I view it as the sense of my child really, truly does know what they want. And I want to encourage that I want to encourage their sense of autonomy, their sense of self because that's something that we all have a desire to do. Especially children. They have a desire to differentiate from their parents and it starts young.

Laura: And not even necessarily a desire, which I feel like sometimes parents misconstrued to think that this is like something that's willful, it's a biological drive to CS autonomy. Absolutely. I think sometimes creating a safe relationship allows a child to know that they can resist and advocate for themselves and part of our job is to recognize when that's happening and help them tune in to themselves, listen to themselves, figure out what it is that they actually need and figure out how to get their needs met in a way that works within the family because that can certainly happen. Do you also see though, that when the relationship is steady and firm, where there's this kind of mutual sense of reliability and security that there can be more cooperation too?

Sidu: I think so, I have seen that, I would say it could be no different than any other relationship. Sometimes I'm thinking of even, you know, adult partner relationships, it's there's no show Asian there sometimes they're still conflict. All of these aspects are very normal, relational aspects,

Laura: Healthy.

Sidu: Healthy.

Laura: Yes.

Sidu: We're preparing as well, our child for all of these aspects. So sometimes there may be conflict with our child and that's okay, that's healthy. We want to navigate that conflict in a way that they are expressing perhaps what they need or want and we're problem solving together. Perhaps they don't get what they want or they need. But even within that there's still a sense of, we're cooperating, we're working together to figure out how everyone's needs primarily can be met within this family and and other times perhaps there's certain wants that can't be met and that's okay as well.

Laura: That's also part of life, right, disappointments are part of life and learning to navigate those things. Okay? So sometimes my listeners really like examples and one that I have been hearing from a lot of folks um around here is schools opening up. There's been quite a lot of school refusal going on. And so do you mind if I kind of put you on the spot and give you like a scenario.

Okay? So let's say, you know, mom and dad are rushing to get out of the out of the house, the kids are back in school, it's maybe been a couple of weeks because they're going back to school and one kid just, you know, sits down on the bench in the mud room and says, I'm not going, what do we do? What is the first thing you would do in that scenario. So I'm not going to school today mama.

Sidu: The first thing and now in this scenario I'm imagining that there's still a little bit of time.

Laura: Hopefully there's time, okay.

Sidu: Hopefully there's if not either way we're making time now.

Laura: First thing, If you know this is happening, tell them to put their shoes on at least 20 minutes earlier, just give yourself a buffer and then you can get your starbucks sale on your way. You're done early. Okay? Yes, okay. But so let's just say perhaps I and I think that when there is time parents handle things better. So let's say there isn't time we're late, we're like we're leaving right at time.

Sidu: So let me give a couple of options. I said yes and then we go from there. Option 1, If you will we demand we let them know too bad listening to you, you don't want to go, you need to put your shoes on, we're leaving right now. Again. Obviously depending on the age, the child still could continue to insist, which means that now I as a parent and forced to physically either pick up my child and move them or something along those lines. That's one option.

Laura: It's so hard to force a kicking and screaming kid into a car seat.

Sidu: Another option is approaching it with a sense of curiosity, a sense of understanding, perhaps what my child is experiencing, helping them understand that this is something that we still have to do, we will have to go to school. But empathizing with their experience of them not wanting to go to school perhaps.

And so that may look like approaching the child trying to figure out, you know, why they don't want to go to school, asking, you know, taking if you will four minutes. Because in reality, if we're choosing the first option of the demanding, you know, and like get your shoes on now we're leaving, that's still taking time. The other option of empathizing with our child and trying to relate to them is also going to take up time.

So, either way, both options will end up taking time. Perhaps we need to pause beforehand and almost have like a mental little chat with ourselves realizing today we're going to be late. It's okay. It doesn't make me a terrible employer. It doesn't make me a bad parent. My child is not bad. I am not, I have not failed. This is a human experience. My child is still a good child, I am still a good parent or a good enough parent. And now I can empathize with my child. I can try to figure out why it is that they are not wanting to go to school that day.

You know, I guess it depends on the child, Maybe they talk about they don't like their teacher, maybe today they just woke up on the wrong side of the bed and they're saying like, I just don't really want to go and you know we have a little chat. I hear you baby. Like I know that you don't want to go to school today we will like we still have to go to school and you know we can offer something different like would you like to do this whenever we're in the car, maybe we can continue talking about it.

Maybe we can talk about the things that we're going to do after school together and almost trying to help my child also de escalate probably from their dis regulated state that they might be in if they are saying I refuse to go to school, they may be dis regulated at that point and so we may need to bring them to a state where we can approach them with logic such as mommy has to go to work, you have to go to school. But in that moment that may not be an option.

Laura: Right, they may not have logical reasoning available to them. I mean three year olds have very little of that anyway but for older kids, if they're very upset. You know the rational thinking happens in the you know the part of the brain that usually is a little bit inaccessible right? When they're very upset.

I feel like what I'm hearing you is slow down, check in with yourself, offer yourself a little bit of soothing so that you can be calm for them help them bring them down with some empathy, some meeting of the mind. I always like, especially with any, I like to get down low to getting your changing your posture. You know, it's, it's funny, I don't know that very many parents know how big we look to our little ones and so everybody listening in case you have never done this.

It can be helpful to think of some things you typically say to your kid and then film yourself saying them while holding your hand holding the phone down at the level that your child is and facing up at you and look down at your phone just to give yourself a picture of what you look like to them while while we're panting. Even the most kindly sweetly delivered thing. We're imposing figures to these little beings. You know.

Sidu: Sometimes I remember when my oldest was two years old, I specifically remember what example when we were in the kitchen and we were talking and I'm looking at her obviously from my adult level and I just thought I wonder how interesting everything would look. And so I got down to her level.

Like I squatted down on the ground and I'm just looking up and everything did just from, you know, the kitchen counters which are so high, the ceilings, the fans, the adults as well, even mom or dad, everything is so large for them. And absolutely sometimes just coming back coming down to their level is a way of I see you, I'm coming to meet you where you are.

Laura: Yeah. And we're in this together, like I'm not going to leave you hanging here. I find too, you know, one of my kids does a little bit of school refusal from time to time. And you know, there's times where I don't necessarily even know what to say because it catches me off guard, like, I don't even know, even just repeating, just to give yourself that moment of pause, like repeating what they've said allows you a little bit of time.

So for those parents who are looking for scripts, simply letting your child give you the script can be really helpful too. So just kind of almost paraphrasing back, I'm not going to school today. Oh, you're not really you're not going to go to school today, huh? School sounds hard. You know, they just gives you a little bit of a jumping off point to repeat back a little bit of what they're saying with a not like not like, oh, you're not going to school today, but with a kind of gentle, curious voice can be quite lovely.

Ok, so then, last question in this scenario, let's say we take option one, we get them in the car, you know, and it happens to the best of us that it happens at times. You know, we've got things we can't meet, you know, meetings, we can't miss whatever it happens, but we feel pretty bad about it, you know, that doesn't feel good to anybody. What do we have to do is repair? Look in the conscious parenting paradigm.

Sidu: The repair, I think I had touched a little bit on it already, but I'm going to go back and just reiterate the importance of repairing with ourselves. I think that part is something that is so crucial just in humans. But if you will something in the conscious parenting, that that sense of still reflecting back because if it didn't go the way that we imagined that we empathize and did all of these wonderful things.

But perhaps it didn't turn out like that and maybe we did take that first option. And more than likely we're maybe in those meetings and now reflecting back and thinking, oh my goodness! Like I picked up my child, I put them in there like, what kind of parent does this? And we're going through everything

Laura: We are so hard on ourselves.

Sidu: We are so hard on ourselves. Yes, we are Laura. And so we're pairing with ourselves first, I think is so important, telling ourselves these things happen, I'm human this moment does not define who I am. It does not define the relationship with my child. And when we're giving ourselves that compassion and then when we see our child asking, letting them know, you know, that time earlier on today when you were having a hard time or when we were having a hard time leaving the house, I picked you up in a harsh way.

And I just want to apologize for that. I'm so sorry that I did that it wasn't right for me to pick you up like that and I will be more mindful of communicating what it is that we need to do in a way that is not causing you harm. Maybe that's too wordy for a three year old in the scenario, three year old. But something along those lines to where I'm communicating that I am sorry, I'm not trying to justify my actions. That's, you know, so I'm not throwing back anything to the child of, well, if you had come, but the situation.

Laura: You didn't ever say the word “but” in there good apology. A good rule of thumb on an apology or repair attempt doesn't include the word, but or however my vocabulary flexible people.

Sidu: And then we let that go afterwards.

Laura: Don't just uh per separate on it and beat ourselves up for days.

Sidu: I would encourage us not to, we might come back to in our own mind that's human as well. But yeah, as best as possible. Whenever that thought comes back up, then that's been taken care of, you know, and I'm moving forward.

Laura: Oh, I love that you're so kind and sweet and I owe that invitation to just let it go is huge, I think. And what a gift to ourselves and to our relationships because when we burden ourselves with our past mistakes, we burden the relationship with them too. It's too much. It's too heavy to put on any one relationship. Um, being kind and compassionate and, and releasing and letting go and forgiving ourselves I think is so important. Thank you for that invitation was beautiful. Let it go so hard. I feel like parenting team has taught me so much about that and I have so much to learn still.

Sidu: As do we all learning so much every day. My children are always teaching me things.

Laura: Same there are wonderful partners in this growing up that we're doing. Speaking of learning then. So if people I'm sure are hungry to learn more from you, where can they go to find you and continue this conversation?

Sidu: Probably the best place to find me is on Instagram. My handle name is conscious parents conscious.

Laura: I think there's a dot. Yeah, I have the link in the show notes so it'll be, you can click right on it.

Sidu: Yeah, so that's where I'm most active. We also have a Facebook page. Same thing conscious parents, if parents are interested in working with me like one on one, they're welcome to go to my website. Also can be found on Instagram, but if not it's new seat counseling dot com and I believe those are the main areas where I'm at right now.

Laura: Awesome. Well thank you. So you do for this beautiful conversation. It was so fun to talk about this with you and I feel so happy to have a colleague who has, I don't know, a similar educational background, it has, you know, it just is very nice to have, I don't know people who are figuring out how to put all of this into practice in a real way with me. So thank you for that. I really appreciate it.

Sidu: Thank you Laura. Yes, I enjoy our conversations.

Laura: Thank you for being here. Yeah, this is really, really great and I hope that we'll get to hear from you again.

Sidu: It would be my pleasure.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review. That really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out and definitely go follow me on Instagram @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes, look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus, I share a lot of other really great resources there too.

November 02, 2021

Episode 83: How Embracing Creativity Can Help You as a Parent with Sierra Casher

November 02, 2021/ Laura Froyen

When we think of "creativity", we immediately think of art, paintings, and drawings. But it actually goes way beyond that and creativity is a crucial skill we need as parents for ourselves & our own experience, and for our kids as they grow. Embracing creativity means encouraging our children's (and our own!) curiosity and using everyday situations to stimulate new ideas, find new ways to see old problems, see things with a beginner's mind, and find innovative solutions.

So, even if you don't see yourself as a "creative" person, I invite you to listen to this week's episode with an open mind as we delve into the incredible ways creativity can support you as a balanced, conscious parent. And I have a really wonderful guest with me for this week's episode. Her name is Sierra Casher and she is going to help us talk about cultivating creativity in our kids and ourselves. Sierra and I first connected in a Clubhouse room and I just loved everything she has to say about creativity, embracing JOY, worthiness, and how cultivating creativity can bring more fulfillment and peace. Sierra is a woman who fearlessly embodies creativity while inspiring others to do the same. She's a wife, a mother of two vibrant kiddos, and an artist who paints pictures both with her inspiring stories and on canvas with her magic paintbrush.

Here is a summary of what we talked about:

Ways to express ourselves through art (even if you're not an artist!)
Tips to cultivate creativity and learning in our children
Creativity as a parenting and problem-solving tool

If you want to have more support on how to be creative, follow Sierra on Instagram.

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello, everybody! Welcome to another episode of The Balance Parent Podcast, this is Dr. Laura Froyen and I have a really cool guest with me today. Her name is Sierra Casher and she is going to help us talk about cultivating creativity in our kids. Sierra is a woman who fearlessly embodies creativity while inspiring others to do the same. She's a wife, a mother of two vibrant kiddos and an artist who paints pictures both with her inspiring stories and on campuses with her magic paint brushes. Siera, thanks so much for being here. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Sierra: Okay, so from that introduction, I just kind of get a little warm and fuzzy inside me to like I literally probably pandemic really pulled this creativity out of me. I realized that we had to start to be creative as parents, as wives, as my, like all of the areas. I was like, okay what do I do now? And for me it was like going into this space of learning how to problem solving, learning how to navigate, figuring out what I'm going to get food at the grocery store. I had to become creative again and I was like, oh my goodness, this is something that I've been having my pocket for years and I'm having to use it now.

I would say for me it's like I love, love, love being in a space to where I have to problem solve if I'm honest. And so just like you and we talked, I was a very academic person, like people really here, you're very smart here, you can go far. And so I chased that for years and then I realized like that's not what I really want to do. I simply want to be creative and help other people to be creative because I see that is very, very impacting.

Like now especially you have to be creative in some way form of fashion, we just think that it looks like art, we think it looks like painting, drawing, writing and it's more than just that it's problem solving, its resiliency, it's like learning how to problem solve something, but to be able to say okay this, I don't like that, how this looks, I can paint over it and that and practically that looks like I don't like this grocery store that has these things, I'm going to go to another one and that can be painting over it, you're just going to a different grocery store and it's like writing, you know like a lot of times we're getting our stories and we're trying to figure out what is it that I bring to the table and it's like you get to rewrite your story and that's creativity.

I don't want to do the things that I did growing up, so I'm going to do something different, you're rewriting your story and that's creative kitchen when you're cooking, that's creativity, I don't have this ingredient, so I'm gonna substitute with this, that's creativity. I know for us in the pandemic in texas there were certain things that they didn't have at the grocery stores and so I was like how do now I got to look up how to NATO's and something how to replace yeast and something they don't have yeast here and I'm like okay well there's creativity there as well.

And so it's like for me, the pandemic really push this out of me again and it reminded me of who I really am and I was like, man, this is different, but I like it and I've been able to assist other people to realize like, hey, this is not as a big deal as you think it is, you just have to be creative and they're like, I'm not trying to paint, I'm not trying to draw and I'm like, well you don't have to pay the draw, however you do have to solve a problem, and that's what creativity does, it solves problems.

Laura: Oh my gosh, Sierra, you're blowing my mind with this kind of broader conceptualization of creativity because I think you're so right. I think so many of us think, you know, when we think of a person who is a creative, we think about a person who is an artist, but having this broader idea of what it means to be creative. I love, I wanted to touch on two things that you mentioned there. One is that we can build our creative muscles in maybe an art practices, you know, through painting, but that those skills, those muscles can be applied in a variety of ways. I loved all of those examples you just gave.

I love that you mentioned in your upbringing, your creativity, your that piece of you wasn't necessarily seen as valuable, wasn't honed wasn't held to the light wasn't allowed to shine. And I have a very similar story I feel within me that I do have creativity that has just never been nourished because I was academically successful. I just like you got pushed into the sciences. I There was no time when you're taking three science courses to take an art course, there just isn't time for that, you know, and, and that's how I was pushed and directed. And now here I am. We're in the middle of a pandemic.

We've gotten the message that our creativity, you know, maybe some of us were lucky and we had people in our lives who saw that within us and held it to the light, but many of us didn't. So what do we do now? Now we're in this place where we have to learn how to be creative again, you know, or maybe for the first time.

Sierra: So I would say for someone who is learning to be creative for the first time simply maybe go to the store and buy paint whatever you're feeling like if you're feeling paints have like each color of the paint is like a feeling for it. Like blues and greens. They're more so of the happy and yellows and oranges. They're more so of the happier colors and red is usually one of those colors that if you think about it, you look at red and you see the paramedics have read. So that's like alarming. There's red when you see when you go to the hospital, the landing for the airplane that's red. So that's alarming.

So if something alarming is going on, you're probably gonna use a blue. If you're having like a somber type of like melancholy type of day, you may be brown, blacks, greys, it's a gloomy type day. So it's like just go grab some colors and paint and when I say paint, you literally just don't have to paint anything specific. But you just go with the flow turn on your favorite music, put on your favorite dress. If you're a woman and just go go with the flow. It doesn't have to look like anything that you've ever seen. It could just be your imagination.

Laura: That's so hard.

Sierra: We forget that part. It's like, just go, just go like everything, especially in the pandemic. Everything can be boxed in, you know, in a box or it has to look like this or you know where your mask and it's like, okay, this is a place you don't have to wear a mask. Just go, just go with the flow turn on the music and you will be amazed at what you create. I promise you, you'll be amazed at what you create simply just by, especially music.

Laura: I can, I just pull out, this is art is a place where you don't have to wear a mask and I know you're talking about a facial covering that we wear in the source, but we talk a lot in this podcast about the masks we wear and that's so true to your just thinking about this. You know, we were so many masks, you know, we come up through this world finding out figuring out that there are parts of us that are unlovable or worrying that there are parts of us that are unlovable. And so we, we start masking very young and this idea that there is this place where we can go where we don't have to wear a mask. You know, we can be fully and authentically ourselves. It's beautiful.

Sierra: You want to stay there. I promise. Like I think for sometimes when you first see what you create, you're looking, you will be like, I don't really know because you want to make it make sense. You want to see your face. You want it to look like something because everyone around us is telling us to look like this, be this. And if you think about it, it's always especially commercials, be this. Get more of this, look like this, don't look like this. Oh, this is acceptable. This is not acceptable.

But art is for me has been a place that I both found myself and I lost myself at the same time, art is truly freedom. And if we can really tap into it, it will help us to turn those wheels to realize that hey, I don't have to be this. This commercial is telling me, I have to be, I don't have to have more. I simply can create what I want, I could create what I want and like you said, the mask, like for me, that was a part of my story. I mask my creativity for years because it was weird, it was like, what is that? I tried to wear clothes that matched because that was acceptable. I really like to wear in the, I'm still coming out,

I like to wear stripes and circles at the same time, but socially, that's not acceptable. They're like, where are you going? You look like a clown at this point in my life is like, it is what it is going to be wearing stripes and circles and you're just gonna have to just learn how to get with it.

Laura: I love that. And you're highlighting to this place of you know, we are so hard on ourselves and that this the idea that this could be a place where you are free of judgment, self judgment, external judgment. I know I can hear my listeners because I know they're out there, the ones who are thinking like but yeah, but I'm not an artist and you know, who would still be afraid to paint on paper because they would be still continuing to judge themselves. You know that they like what I would make wouldn't look good.

I don't know how to mix colors. I don't know how to make paint strokes and you are encouraging people to be brave and to just do it and to accept what is, that's it, right, accept what comes out. See the beauty and whatever comes out. Even if it doesn't look conventional or what you thought it was going to look like or what joe down the streets as it should look like you were just fully accepting what comes out of you creatively. And in the process, I think you learn to accept yourself.

Sierra: It's like, it's like a mirror or it can be a mirror. Yes, exactly what I was saying about the colors, it's like if you're having a gloomy day, you're more so going to be drawn towards darker colors. If you're feeling vibrant inside, you're probably gonna be drawn to more of the brighter colors. So it's like whatever you're painting on this paper you're going to see and I think there's a part of like art therapy where they present different colors to a child and see which colors they're picking and they'll ask them why did you pick this?

And you will find out, hey, who this child is having this going on with them because of the colors that they have Children just like with us when you're getting ready to paint, if that's not where you want to start, you can find music. I know a lot of people speak music, you can find music that like if you listen to the type of music that you listen to when you're very high you listen to music that's fast, be like Yeah.

And when you're having like those not so good days, you're probably listen to a sad love song and it's like that's art as well. Like we don't necessarily have to simply create. Somebody may have already created something. For you to be able to give life to that thing, if that makes sense.

Laura: Yeah, 100%. I love how we're talking about this. I love that we started out talking of our goal here is to do a little bit of talking about how to cultivate creativity and our kids. And I think we're hitting on this note right here that if we want to really cultivate anything in our kids, we have to embody in ourselves first, right? And so bravely finding ways to express yourself and to figure out like, how am I like, I mean, just even this practice that you're talking about, like letting the things that speak to you give you information without judgment of Yeah, this song is really speaking to me.

I wonder like why it's resonating just a little bit of curiosity there. And I think, you know, to what you're talking about with the idea of art, of creating art with this mind. If we're not going to get it right, there's no perfection. There's no one right way to do this, Bringing this to the way we do art in front of our kids can also be hugely impactful for them. I hear all the time from parents who have kids and kind of the 3-6 ranges. When I see this the most where kids become very perfectionistic with their art, with their drawing, very concerned that they're drawing doesn't look the way it's supposed to.

And I actually, you know, when that's happening, I prescribe scribbling to the parent so that the parent is doing a lot of scribbling a lot of just messy art, a lot of art that looks like nothing to give permission to the child to re-find that in themselves. But I never really thought about it in a like, you know, this was always like from the mindset of this is what the kid needs the kid needs you to to not draw perfectly, because they can't they don't have to fine motor skills to be able to do it. They need you to match where they are and give them permission to do it imperfectly so that they can have a creative process, but I never thought about how just how good it would be for the parent themselves as individuals, you know what I mean?

Sierra: That's one of the philosophies that I live by is like our Children do what we do, not what we fill them. And so it's like if you are embodying what you want them to do, then they're going to do it. If you want them to eat vegetables, you have to eat vegetables because they're like, mom's not eating it. I want to eat it if you want them. Like you're saying like when it comes to article activity, it's like creativity is really about the environment.

If mom is always wearing black and white, I'm probably gonna wear black and white as a kid because I don't see her being vibrant or different choices with her clothing. And so it's like even with my daughter, she'll tell me mom, I want to be a mom want to grow up. And I'm like, why do you say that because you wear lipstick? And I'm like what? And so I took note of that. So when I catch her in my lipstick, I am not, you know scolding her for that because she's trying to be like me. So even with art, she my art is around in her office space and so she will mimic what she sees me doing. Mom, I want to be like you because your paintings are beautiful. And so she'll just try to do what I do.

And so just yesterday she took her canvas and she just went to work on it and I looked at and I was like, she's trying to do something that she saw on the other candidates. And so like now like some paintings that I have that are like flowers and stuff like that. I keep them in the closet because I don't want her to think her paintings have to look the same as mine. And so you don't want to limit her creating like exactly what you were saying. Like I don't want her to feel like, oh mom, my flower doesn't look like yours. It is not supposed to, it's not supposed to simply supposed to be whatever you come up with. And as she grows like I still have her paintings from when she was like, maybe two and three, she's four now and I look back at them and I'm like, wow, I can see improvement.

However, I am still starting to see that she's still a child and Picasso. I'm probably gonna venture this. But Picasso has a, he has a quote where he's talking about basically, you can't go back to childhood. You can't like, like paintings that we see from Children. We are usually in all of them is childlike. And when you try to pay as an adult, you don't paint like a child because you have so many experiences now.

Laura: and you have limitations. You have judgments and thoughts and constraints that kids don't have. They don't know they exist.

Sierra: Exactly unless you put them on them.

Laura: Right. Unless we put them on them and we do that in lots of completely like well intentioned or unintentional ways, you know, like, I mean just with the best of intentions when they're three and they say Mommy will you draw me a horse, like, you know, it's hard to deny a child when they're asking something as simple as that, you know? But in that place, when we do that, when we draw a horse for a child, then we tell them that's a horse and we put a constraint on them right?

Sierra: Now, that we looked at a child's photo, and I know we all do it, but even with my daughter, whatever she draws, if she says it's a horse and it looks like a little flour that is a horse.

Laura: that's a horse.

Sierra: That's the best horse I've ever seen. And if I'm honest, sometimes, like I've been a art teacher at the Boys and Girls Club and the other teachers are not artists and they just didn't get it. So Children would show them scribble scrabble and they'll be like, this is my house, and they're like, this is not, I'm like, don't do that.

Laura: don't crush their dress.

Sierra: you can't see what they think that is their house, and then like, that needs a house, and I'm like, I'll talk to them later and I'm like, hey, don't do that, like this is a place they get to be created, this is a place they get to just create if they draw scribble, you understand that as that, but to them that is a house and we don't want to combine them in here, I don't like there was a time, I hope the people out because I'm like, you're just not ready for this because it's a very tender place and like you were saying earlier, like when they look at something and they think, you know, hey, this is what this is.

And we have those constraints. It usually comes from another person. They view what we did and they're telling us that that's not acceptable and that's a child. They don't realize that I get to be who I wanna be, I get to draw how I want to draw. But we internalize that. I know for myself out, I internalize it as men, I have to do something that works. People looking at and realizing what it is abstract. It was like, no, you can't, no.

Laura: I have to do something that's worth people looking at, Oh my God, I mean that's a metaphor though for everything in parenthood, we do so much as parents in an attempt to fill someone else's idea of what's worthy and right.

Sierra: or oh my kids are eating this and this is what's healthy.

Laura: Yeah, we do so much. We let so many other people's ideas confine us, man, you're really heading

Sierra: It’s an art. This art, it releases you from that. So we constantly do art. It will release you from different boundaries and boxes that people have put us in is beautiful, if I'm honest, like change the world like just be creative every single day, do something creative every single day and you start to realize the boxes that you are in just not being creative.

Laura: okay. And you're really helping me with a block. Actually, Sierra right now that I have around my art because I do really enjoy painting and I have one of the blocks I've had is that what do I do with the paintings when I'm done? That's a waste of money. It's a waste of materials. It's not going to go on a wall. Like maybe I might even throw it away. Like it just there's this piece of me that's very like depression and what like poverty, trauma that comes up from my family history with money story. But there's this idea that the act of doing it is in in and of itself purposeful is what you're saying, right? That's what you're saying that in the in the

Sierra: Nobody has to see? you know, have you, no one has to see it. Like, you don't have to share them with anyone. If you do, then that's a bonus to them because you're sharing your inside, this is my heart. And so that I poured onto paper and if you want to view it, you don't have to say anything. You're just like, oh, thank you. Like, people should be saying thank you for seeing other people's art.

Like you see this and then goes art all the time. And he's basically saying, hey, here is my heart organize, like when we paint and when we create is from the inside, I don't know someone, I don't know how you would be able to create for me, I don't know how you would be able to create without going inside. Like you can do that, somebody can teach me but if without going inside because it's like it's a deep place of that's not judged.

And so it's like if I can put this on paper and let people see it, you are a brave person just to even put it out because it's like almost like open heart surgery, it's like uh what do I want to paint today? Um You gotta put your heart on the paper because people are going to look at it and not all the time, but if you share it, people will look at it based on their perception of their life and their experiences and they will say that's not what that is, that's not what they're supposed to be. Oh that color doesn't go with that color, that's not you, That's them, That's their experiences, That's the things that they have been through and that is like their story, that's coming up with your art.

Laura: Oh my gosh, I feel like Sierra, you are teaching a class in like conscious communication right now. Like I mean you're teaching like all the things through art because you were just talking about boundaries, holding boundaries for yourself. That if you're going to put something out there that's vulnerable. You are not going to let other people's perception of it change how you feel about it.

You just gave everybody a crash course in conscious living. I mean it's beautiful. I love the way that this is all flowing from you. Okay, so let's talk for a minute now. We've been talking a lot about us as parents. So a little bit about kids, but are there other ways that we can be cultivating creativity? I think we've hit on why creativity.

So there's actually a lot of research in the business world in career and financial success That as we move further into the 21st century that people who have creativity, one of their core competencies will be more successful in a future. That requires a lot of flexibility, Problem solving, critical thinking skills, you're spot on with that. That's something that's backed by amazing research. So how do we then, how do we cultivate creativity and our kids? Like can we talk about that a little bit?

Sierra: I would say it starts with the environment to things that are important is doing like simply I was doing, being like simply just being creative. Um not always having very, I would say like maybe by a creative shirt that you have that doesn't look like your regular work shirts. And so like or in the kitchen we usually cook this, this this mix it up a little bit and do something different and that will teach them like mom usually cook oatmeal with apples on the side today.

She cooked oatmeal with, I don't know, let's say apricots on the side and it's like, that's different. Oh mom just get a little creative in the kitchen today and that there's like, oh, so we can do things differently. It doesn't always have to be in such a structured environment. And then also to, I would say that it is being in doing like doing things you want them to mimic the other part, the environment have art work and different things in the environment. Like if the child comes to you and this is my favorite one to use and she has on rain boots, night jacket and pajama pants and you're going to the grocery store, who is she going to harm?

Laura: Oh my gosh.

Sierra: nobody, nobody, she's fully clothed. So let her rare that just let them be in their creativity because they're trying to express themselves. Mama want to be a firefighter. I want to be a princess and a unicorn all at one time, let them just be that and don't and I would say try not to, what do you like if you're going to somewhere that's required of, you know, business attire and they need to be, you know, in a specific uniform, do that.

However, it's like, let them just simply just be, if you're going to a friend's house and they want to warehouse shoes, whatever it is. Let them just express themselves, let them dress themselves and just go and be. And also to like my daughter, she plays with lots of legos actually have a chalkboard wall in my office space. So when she feels creative, so she's not painting on every other wall, draw on the chalkboard wall.

So it's like cultivate the environment first and then they'll just do it. They'll follow your lead by what you're doing. And they'll also see that, oh, this is my space to create. I have a table cloth, like a plastic tablecloth on my office wall and I sent her campus there whenever she will go to that, she's probably painted on the same campus like three or four times and I'll just say, hey, come to mama, let me put the paint into your palate and she can just go paint, clean it up when you're done and you can do it again tomorrow.

And whenever she's feeling it, she'll tell me, mom, I'm about to go paint. I just let it go paint mom. I want to create a car. I let her just create a car and it's like what she's seen me do these things first or she's like I said with the lipstick earlier, she gather creative with that too. And I'm like, yeah, I gotta go hide.

Laura: well, at least our good lipsticks, you know, those things can be expensive sometimes like.

Sierra: we can get one of them, you know.

Laura: we're not about that kind of creativity and we're not about the smashing lipstick creativity. I mean, I love this too. I think that's one thing that can be, what I'm hearing you saying is not being afraid of their creative spirit of nurturing it, creating room for it in your day and supporting them to figure out how they can do that within the bounds of what's okay.

Like you you know, have we're not drawing on all of the walls were going to draw on this wall, that's a chalkboard wall, that's for you to draw on. You know, we're not going to paint on this surface, we're going to paint on this service. So giving her good boundaries in which she can channel, you know, her creativity more freely.

I would imagine to that having access to materials is good, right? So access that she can get herself and feel independent with the ones that need a little bit more support or supervision. Those ones are up high or something.

Sierra: Yes. And then like this only in my office space that she can get her creative stuff. Just because I know like if I leave it anywhere else, I will find paint on the walls, like, like like when she was three, she painted a mural of her hands on the wall, we walked in and there was handprints everywhere and I was like what? And that taught me, you don't have a good boundary because you have the art stuff just where she can reach.

So not only are you teaching them boundaries, you also teaching them to allow their creativity to flow from them. If she, you know, she knows where the things are. However, she still has to come to me and say, hey mom, I'm ready to go paint and then I can get them down for her and versus you know what I learned, You just can't have free access to it.

Just it. But she has legos in her room that she can play with. She has puzzles that there's a lot of different things that besides pain because I like, okay, but there's lots of different things you can use this legos. There's building box. There are like these don't really know what you call them, but they're like star shaped and you put them together. They're usually like very vibrant colors.

Laura: Oh yeah, these like little kind of like, I don't know, brain flakes kind of thing.

Sierra: Yeah.

Laura: That you can stick together.

Sierra: Yes. There's all different types writing. That's the way to be creative. They can have a journal right into draw in sidewalk chalk if you don't want it done in the house. There's so much that they can do saying the kinetic sand.

Laura: I live in that story that you told about your daughter at the handprints, you fully situated the responsibility for that moment on yourself. I love that about like because that's a hard moment. Like it was like, oh, that's on me. You know, I one day I walked into my daughter when she was three, she's eight now, so it's like a long time ago. But she, during her rest time she didn't nap anymore.

But she still intend to her room for quiet time. She got into the bathroom and gotten a jar of raw shea butter and you know, like raw shea butter, like that doesn't smell the best, you know, But it's a lot. She's got this jar of raw shea butter and had rubbed it all over herself and all over her floor. We had hardwood floor.

So I mean just conditioned the floor all over her furniture and we walked in and we're like, well that's on us, the shea butter on the counter, We should have put it up higher. Like, you know, like that's not her fault. Like they don't have any impulse control. You know?

Sierra: Like, I mean, I had, I want to use it. Everything else can use a little shape.

Laura: But yeah, one thing too that I liked to is that you highlighted at how the way that you situate these boundaries is that you are her partner in creativity. You're not a block, You're not a stopper, you're not a, you know, a thing where you're blocking it from happening, that she knows you're her partner in it, that she can come to you when she wants to paint and you're right there with her.

Yeah, I want you to be able to paint too. She knows that you're on her side, they're going to make it work with her. You know, maybe if she wants to paint you know in a certain way or you know that you will help her figure out.

Sierra: She'll ask mama, do you think it's beautiful every time is? Yes, I think that's beautiful. What you know, what are you trying to create? I don't judge it. If you think that those three colours go together, then they go together. I'm really trying my best like in the beginning I was I would be honest, it hasn't always been this way.

I was looking at the scribbles and being like that, it's not that and I realized the impact that it had and then now I for her birthday, her birthday is coming up, I'm gonna her old paintings and her new things. I'm gonna frame them and put them in her room so that she can see like this is what you have created, but also have her age on the back for later on.

So she can see like this is what you painted when he was three and she can make the judgment that she wants to make about her own work. However, at this age, I'm like, I just want her to see, like, continue to create, just continue to create. So there is a constant reminder. So when she becomes an adult continue to create that is my hope that she will continue to create.

Laura: We put our kids artwork on a wall, it tells them something like it communicates to them that this is important. What you just did was important, you know, I love that I have a client whose high school, best friend, her parents do let her draw on all of her walls from childhood and when she moved away from college, they like, took pictures of it all because like, by the time she and she was going to an art school, but and by the time she was 18, when was moving out, they were going to repaint it all of her walls were covered and like, what a beautiful gift for a creative kid, you know, like it was her room and it was ok, like, that was okay with her parents.

Like that's not, I don't know if I can handle that, you know, but I think what a beautiful gift that child's parents saw in her, something that like Doctor that need to do it and cultivated a safe place for her to be able to do it, what an incredibly, like, an incredible thing to be seen in that way by your parents. It's a beautiful thing, right?

Sierra: And I think it's more so, like you were saying, like, they partnered with her and let her do that. I can see how that's a little different as a little child though, just like, I don't know if that's gonna change over to you can't do this in other people's homes or other people.

Laura: Yeah. I think it takes careful holding of those boundaries, you know, really clarifying having a very clear boundary. Yeah. I don't know how it would work for all families, but it worked for there's I mean yeah.

Sierra: I love to draw in my room, Oh it came out.

Laura: My five year old when she goes in for her rest time. She doesn't like to get out of her bed. She likes to stay in her bed, but she plays in it before she had her crib up and we didn't know it was happening, but she has these little murals in the like that she's drawn on the wall between the bars of her crib.

And so when we took her crib away, we saw them there and they're like, you know, they're just like, I couldn't bear, they were just pencils easy to wash off. You know, I couldn't bear to do it. Like there's all represented all this time that she spent in her bed creating, I couldn't bear to wash them away. They're still there even though she's in her big girl bed.

Sierra: Because it's different because like I said, it's their heart wall at that time, they were experiencing this or they were feeling this and they were just like, well, I think I want this to be on the outside you do and it's just like for you to like even to act like sometimes I asked my daughter like what is this about?

And then she was explained to me what it is and the story usually doesn't go with the picture, but I'm like, okay, whatever this is what this is about. And even though they don't match to me, I'm like in her mind, that's what that's about. And like for her that storytelling as well, like you created a whole story off of this picture that you drew.

Laura: Yeah.

Sierra: beautiful. Like it's a purpose in what you just drew.

Laura: I love that you keep saying this that they have put their heart on the page and then they're giving it to you. I think it's really important that we understand that when a child gives us that they are giving us a piece of them a little picture into their mind and into their heart and it's our job to accept it.

Like unconditionally with no judgment to ask them about it. You know? So like some of the things you can do in a child gives you a piece of art or saying things like you know, tell me about this and oh wow, I see you, we're really careful with these colors. Will you tell me about why you chose them? You know, really kind of lets them feel seen and heard and then valued. You know.

Sierra: They'll bring you another one, they'll bring them now.

Laura: They will.

Sierra: Be celebrating it. They're like my daughter, she have a card on my door now because she's like, hey mom and I asked her about it and so she's like, hey, I want to make dad one and like okay, so I think people know that piece of paper into like once you celebrate it and they will see, don't want to just give it to everybody because she told, she's like, hey, for my birthday, I want to make cars for everyone and I'm just like, okay, it's your birthday. However okay.

Laura: But look at the generous heart that you're cultivating through our, I love that I really appreciate this conversation that we've been having about the gifts of creativity, like what it can offer us as parents as such on our journey of releasing perfectionism, releasing self judgment and also for our kids, thank you Sierra so much for this conversation. I really appreciate it. Okay, so tell us where parents can find you because I've watched a few of your paint along videos on instagram and I want everybody to come and see you.

Sierra: So on Instagram I actually just created a new artist page is going to be cashiered to you and if you go to my regular Instagram sierra_cashier and you'll just see the link to get to the new page, haven't uploaded things there yet. However, I'm excited about putting things, there are just simply creativity. Um I also have a website and you can see some of my old paintings and new paintings because there's some things from Instagram there and it's the seracashier.com.

Laura: Just, we'll have all of those links in the show notes for the podcast episode. I hope everybody goes and finds you.

Sierra: Yes, I'm excited.

Laura: Yeah, thank you so much for having this conversation with me. It was fun to talk with you about this. Thank you for, for holding that space for us.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review. That really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out and definitely go follow me on Instagram @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes, look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus, I share a lot of other really great resources there too.

October 26, 2021

Episode 82: Helping Kids (And Parents) with ADHD with The Childhood Collective

October 26, 2021/ Laura Froyen

I've been getting a lot of questions from my community about how to handle kids' challenging behaviors and where to get support. And a lot of the stories I hear about these kids send my “ADHD” alarm bell ringing. Kids with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) can look like they are simply misbehaving or being defiant when in reality they have something getting in the way of them being able to meet expectations.

Now, if you are a parent who has a child with ADHD, I know that it can be tough and that you might be feeling worried that something is wrong with your kiddo or that you’re failing them somehow. And I also know many parents maybe suspect something is going on for their kid but are worried about them being diagnosed, labeled, and pidgeon-holed. I get that so much! I’ve had similar concerns for my own daughter when I was seeking to understand her struggles when she was younger.

Navigating the world of diagnoses, therapies, and schooling accommodations can be confusing and lonely. And so, for this week's episode I wanted to help you understand how your child's brain works, help you see how this diagnosis can empower you as a parent, and can help your child get the support they need to do well in all their settings! And to help me with this conversation, I like to introduce you to a crew of amazing parenting and child development experts, Mallory Yee, Laurie Long, and Katie Syverson. Through their work in private practice, they saw a great need for parents to more easily access research-backed parenting tips and tools, particularly those parents raising kids with ADHD, anxiety, learning disorders, and speech/language delays. Here is an overview of our discussion:

Parent mindset shifts when raising a child with ADHD
Prioritizing connection over correction
Viewing "challenging" behaviors as more of a skill deficit (thus in need of teaching!)

To get more support, follow Diana on social media, Facebook: www.facebook.com/childhoodcollective Instagram: @thechildhoodcollective

Clubhouse: @thechildhoodco

Or follow their website www.thechildhoodcollective.com They also have an online course, Creating Calm, for parents raising kids with ADHD ages 4-11 years.

CHECK IT OUT HERE

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen and I'm here with a really exciting episode of The Balanced Parent Podcast. I say that a lot but I really mean it this time because I've got a crew of amazing parenting and child development experts who are going to help us understand a little bit more about what's going on when kids are having a challenging or hard time and how we can best support them.

So to help me with this conversation I've brought in the childhood collective. They are an amazing group of women who just get it. They get what we're trying to do here at this podcast. I'm so excited to have them. So I'm going to let them introduce themselves to you and then we're going to dig into this conversation. Mallory, why don't you take it away?

Mallory: Yeah, Thank you so much. And we're so excited to be here. My name is Mallory Yee. I am a child psychologist, but currently a stay-at-home mom. Although we debate whether I'm a stay-at-home mom or a work-from-home mom now that, you know, the childhood collective is ramping up.

And prior to becoming a stay-at-home mom, however, I worked in the schools. I'm trained in school psychology and I also worked in private practice doing a lot of diagnostic assessments for families, doing a lot of therapy, worked in pediatrician's offices, reaching families in that way, which was amazing because they were already coming to the doctor and then I was there to kind of provide this medical home.

But now, you know, my most important job of all now is staying at home mom. I have two young boys, two and a half, four and a half. They're really making me put all of my knowledge to work every day and extending myself a lot of grace.

Laura: It’s amazing, isn’t it?

Mallory: It really is. So I'm living that stay-at-home mom life and it's actually it feels like it's been recently but we're coming up on the three-year anniversary of that I think so it's been a while now.

Laura: We're so happy to have you and Lori your next.

Lori: Yup. I'm Lori Long and I am also a child psychologist trained in school psychology and I started a private practice in Scottsdale Prism where I mostly do diagnostic evaluations for autism, ADHD, specific learning disorders like dyslexia. And yeah I had training and background in doing therapy for anxiety or helping support families with ADHD.

And you know through that process kind of saw a lot of families really struggling after they get the diagnosis and in particular kids with ADHD. A lot of those families were coming in having gotten diagnostic evaluation from a pediatrician was pretty minimal and they were kind of like not knowing where to go and how to get support and they really just wanted practical strategies and it was hard to give parents evidence-based services.

Even in the huge area of phoenix. You know not a lot of providers were doing parent training and parent help for kids with ADHD. And so we really started the childhood collective to provide an online course creating calm to support our parents of kids with ADHD. Yeah we're doing that through the childhood collective.

Laura: Amazing and Katie, tell us where you fit in in the collective.

Katie: Perfect. So I'm Katie Syverson and I'm the speech-language pathologist. I also work in private practice. I actually lead a small team of speech pathologists and within a psychology practice and small world, that's where we all met kind of once upon a time, but I'm the only one that's still there and I work a lot with the psychology team that we have there in terms of just differential diagnosis when we're looking at a child with autism or ADHD different learning issues and helping figure out how their language, their social skills, their executive functioning, how that all fits into the bigger picture that the psychologists are painting with their reports.

So that's been a huge passion for me. I've been doing diagnostics for almost 10 years and when I do therapy because I do more testing now I try to focus the kids that I see more in the field of executive functioning ADHD and so it's been kind of fun with the childhood collective, bringing out kind of those things that you teach parents every day in one on one. And I know that this is something that you're really passionate about too Laura is just being able to reach more families and do it on a larger scale.

And so I generally will be the one talking about tools that parents can use. I'm also a mom and I use these strategies in my own home all the time when they're not working. I'm problem solving right along with our parents. So that's a lot of my pieces, I think of the tactical kind of executive functioning piece.

Laura: I love it. It's such a pleasure to be able to talk with a group of women who have such broad expertise and really share this vision of seeing the child as a whole person and seeing the family as a whole and deserving of wrap-around support that, you know when we see them as whole kids and whole families, we are looking at ways to support the entire family system and I love that you do that.

Okay so we wanted to talk a little bit then about, I know that you often want to support families as they are coming in, they've gotten a diagnosis or they're figuring out what their diagnosis is and particularly kids with anxiety and ADHD. As families are in that space, what are some of the first things you start helping them with as they are navigating this kind of unsure time?

Mallory: I think a big piece especially if the family is recently diagnosed if the child just has a diagnosis is really helping the family understand what that means, understand how their child's brain works, understand that their child's diagnosis is not their fault, helping them see how having the diagnosis can be really empowering for them as parents because they can figure out how to best support their child but how it's also empowering for their child.

I think a challenge for a lot of children if they're to the point where they're walking through our door for a diagnostic assessment. They realize that something is different, that their brain works differently, that something is challenging for them in a way that it's not challenging for other kids in their class maybe. So I think a big piece is also working with the child to learn how their brain works differently but how that can really be an asset for them.

How we can help in those areas that are more challenging but also tapping into some of those strengths that come from the ways that their brain works differently. So a lot at the beginning is education and a lot of it is a mindset shift to helping them see how the road ahead can be really positive and fulfilling now that they have this diagnosis and we have a little more guidance.

Laura: Does anybody have any other things to add to that piece of it?

Katie: I think for me too, you know, it is that reassurance and really building rapport with the parents because a lot of times I see kids that maybe weren't picked up really young as having a traditional language issue. A lot of kids especially with ADHD. Didn't have a language delay at let's say birthright like as a three-year-old where their language starts to become more problematic as they get older and as they start to write and they start to knead, executive functioning skills and cohesion right to write a paragraph or a story or an essay.

These kinds of things you start to see and those are all fundamentally language-based issues. But the same with social skills, right? They don't present like a child with autism who at the very beginning might be much more independent and less socially engaged. But as they get older and social skills get more nuanced, kids with ADHD who can be really impulsive, can really struggle in reading social situations Modulating themselves to the situation.

These parents are coming in a little later like their child might be 7,8,9 years old and they're going like something's not quite right. I'm not really sure and it might have taken them a really long time to get to this point of getting this diagnosis or getting the help that they need. And even getting a speech pathologist like it's not always common for a child with ADHD to get a speech and language of although it's super helpful and can really pinpoint some of these issues.

So a lot of what I do is really validating the parent and listening to them and taking careful notes on what they say and I have a pretty good memory so maybe I don't even need to take those notes but they watch me type what they're saying and it's like, yes, someone is hearing me, They, believe me, they see that this is an issue and so I know that that can be really exhausting as a parent because you feel like you're always trying to explain what you're seeing and there's always going to be that friend that says everything's fine, grandma is like, he's just a busy guy or whatever. So just validation. I think it's such a huge piece of the puzzle.

Lori: I feel like with the families that I worked with most of the kids that I'm seeing don't just have one single diagnosis, they have ADHD and dyslexia or they have autism and dyslexia and anxiety and so there's oftentimes a lot of different things going on and for parents a lot of times it is prioritizing kind of treatment and what to do and you can't, it can be so overwhelming when you get tons of recommendations about how to address different areas and I think for parents trying to help them kind of decide on what is there biggest challenge or struggle right now and how do we kind of focus on that or address that first so that they're not completely overwhelmed by that process.

Laura: So, so good, okay, I'm thinking about a question right now and I want to just take a second to make sure I get it outright. So I know that you all are very, you know, interested in the Ross Greene Collaborative and Proactive Solutions model, the model that's described in a number of books, but parents are most familiar with the Explosive Child and in that book, they really do a really nice job of describing how some of these underlying issues can make a kid look like they've got behavioral challenges where you make a kid look explosive and really there's these underlying things. Do you see this a lot with ADHD and anxiety in kids and how do you help parents shift from seeing like okay when he's bothering his friends that's really ADHD that's happening when he's losing it after school? It's really because he's got executive over-functioning overload from school, he's exhausted. Can you speak to that a little bit?

Mallory: I think we talk a lot about anxiety through the childhood collective and this is one where we see a lot of families especially at school and you know, we've talked about school refusal and some of our kids will, you know, tear up the front office of the school and they'll be running away from school and they will be cussing and hitting and all of these things and people don't make that connection. That’s anxiety, you know, because to us, anxiety is just kind of being frightened and shivering and kids will state that they're worried and a lot of our kids really don't have the language to say that they are afraid of a situation.

They don't have the language to say what is going on, but their body is in a state of fight or flight, you know, when they're anxious and for a lot of our kids, they start fighting, you know, some of them will flee in run away, but some of them will start fighting. And so yes, I think a lot of times trying to help parents and school staff understand what is the underlying issue, because if we treat it like It's just a behavioral problem, we never get at the source of that.

And if you try and force a kid into a situation where their anxiety is a 10, you know, 10 out of 10 you're never going to get them to do that. You know, if you made me stand on a stage with two million people in front of me, I'm not going to talk, just not because I'm terrified and I can't do that, it's too much for me. So I think it's really important to kind of get that underlying issue and identify that. And I think Ross Green does a really good job of trying to teach parents that there's usually an underlying skill that is missing or an underlying issue going on that can look like defiance.

Katie: Absolutely and like Dr. Greene says, kids do well if they can, and we really adopt that mindset with The Childhood Collective and that's a huge mindset shift for parents because that's not what society is telling them. Society is telling them that they messed up somehow, that they're bad parents, society is telling them that they have a naughty kid and society has a ton of opinions about what they need to do about that.

Laura: Yeah, and it's also the piece of like they can do it sometimes. So a lot of parents say, come to me and say, I know they can do this because I see them do it in circumstances and that means when they're not doing it, they're choosing not to.

Katie: Absolutely. That makes me think of another scenario that a ton of families come to us with, that's incredibly frustrating, but really common and that's that their child holds it together at school and then they come home and it’s the ultimate meltdown. And it's confusing for parents about why can my child regulate their emotions at school?

Why can they, you know, listen to the teacher, the teacher is telling me about one kid and I tell you that's not my child, because my child comes home and that's a different child, and that's a challenge for a lot of families is again, when the underlying need isn't addressed, whether it's anxiety or we need to build skills, some kids can hold it together really well, but it is taxing and it is taking every last drop of energy and mental focus at school and then parents get the meltdown at home because it's safe and because the child has nothing left to give. So that's another really challenging, challenging thing that we see families face in that way.

Laura: I see that all the time too and it's so important to know too that just because a kid looks like they're regulating, it doesn't actually mean that they necessarily are, they could very well be stuffing. And of course, we know that when you're stuffing and it's got to come out somehow, this will come out later, but I'm releasing a real Instagram real on this exact topic that I recorded a couple of days ago. So hopefully you'll take a look.

Yes, it's so common. I hear all the time, my kids can hold it together so well they're angels at school, their model students at school and then they come home and everything is no and it's everything is destroyed and it's so hard and so hard as parents to be on the receiving end of that. I've got one of those kiddos who just white knuckles through her day at school, she's in a different school this year that is not challenging in the same way her other school was and she doesn't do it anymore.

She's another year older, but she doesn't come home with massive headaches and She would get so dis regulated in her old school where she would come home with literal fevers 99, fever once or twice a week because she wasn't sick, her body was just that dis regulated and challenging. It's so hard. It's hard when we love our kids so much and we want the little angels, we want nice, kind, sweet moments with them.

Lori: But I always try and tell parents like we're all like that, you know, I'm going to go to my job and I'm gonna be really sweet and polite to the people that I'm seeing. But then I come home and after a stressful day, I'm snapping at my husband and I talked to angry and don't talk to me and we're all like that to some extent, in some ways there's a positive in the sense that our kids feel safe with us, they feel unconditionally loved and they feel like they can be that way around us, that they don't feel like they can be around other people at school. So in some ways though it feels awful, they feel that way because they feel safe.

Katie: Another challenge with this scenario too is that we're seeing the challenging behaviour at home. The fix is really at school. This is where families encounter difficulties with the school, when the school is saying they're fine, they hold it together all day, they get their work done. What do you mean? Does your child need extra support or accommodations at school? The problem is at home, but with these kids, that's not the case, they, they're telling us that they need more support at school, more accommodation.

omething is really challenging there. Their needs are not being met at school even though they're holding it together. Appearances, you know, so that's another challenge that families face is getting their child extra support at school when appearances would make you think that they're doing fine.

Laura: How can parents do that? Because I know so many parents are in the situation where they know that they're doing what they can at home and they need a partnership with their school. But because the school isn't seeing it, there's not resources available. They can't get an IP. So that they can get accommodations. What can a parent do to advocate for their child in these scenarios?

Katie: We recently did a thing where we were asking people on our Instagram and our email list like what do you need from the teachers if you're a parent and teachers, what do you need from parents of kids in your class, especially those exceptional learners, right. Kids that are going to maybe need a little extra support. And one of the resounding themes was communication, which seems obvious, but I'm a mom and I have a first grader. And it's kind of challenging actually, like we don't, I don't know how your guys schools are set up to your guys were trying not to say your guys, I don't know how.

Laura: We're working on it.

Katie: I know it's a personal goal. I don't know how your schools are set up, but I don't go into my child's school, especially now with Covid, I never go in and talk to the teacher. It's not like preschool. And so it does take a level of intention to reach out to the teacher and really kind of established just a relationship. I'm so grateful to my child's teacher, she's wonderful and my daughter loves her and she always tells me about how things are going and I have a really verbal kid who just will tell me like.

And then so, and so, you know, touched this person's chair and then they had to lose two minutes of recess or whatever. So I get all the details but from my kid, but it's like reaching out to the teacher and really establishing that relationship. I think that even in parenting we tend to do this right? Like things are going well, we'll just stay at the park for 10 more minutes and then things fall apart. So if you know that you have a child who might struggle or you've already kind of, this isn't your first roller coaster.

You might really want to consider like reaching out to the teacher and just building that relationship. Hey, how are things going? I, especially with my little one, she likes to take pictures of things that she does at home and she'll be like, can you email that to my teacher? So I'll just email random pictures of things that she does. The teachers probably like, oh, here she is again in my inbox. That's okay though because then something comes up, you know? And maybe like for example my daughter had an issue on a math test where she is really, I think didn't understand the directions for this one section and I just reached out to the teacher and I was like hey is this a concern? You know?

But it wasn't weird because I already know her, she already knows that she can call me Katie and you know what we had for breakfast three days ago because and I wanted to send her a picture so I feel like it doesn't feel so weird and again it doesn't need to be like a daily check in in some cases maybe it it would but in this sense I think it's just it's almost like an ounce of prevention, right? You're just going to get to know that teacher and build that relationship and that can be really helped full just as like a first line of defense.

Laura: Mallory and Lori, did you have any suggestions too?

Mallory: Parents that are dealing with this situation, their parenting an exceptional child, perhaps their child has ADHD. They really are thrust into the role of advocate. Most parents don't understand how the schools work and this is something that we also talk a lot about on our social media is understanding the medical side of things is different than the school side of things and how can we make these two things work together to really support our kids and it's really important for these families to understand. But it's complicated and so they're thrust into this role of having to advocate for their child without even necessarily knowing what they're advocating for and how to do that and what their rights are.

So encouraging families to learn what their rights are within the school and what to request and how to request it. And there are other people in the school as well that could be helpful to these families, outside of just the classroom teacher, like a school counselor for the school psychologist or vice principal sometimes takes on some of these responsibilities. So knowing that there are options out there that there are other people they can talk to with whom they can bring up these concerns. It is just so challenging that they're instantly taking on this advocate role. It's hard for a lot of families.

Laura: : I am so glad that you're teaching family those things because when I need to advocate for my child, I can just kind of throw around the weight of my PhD, you know, and I can come in and say, you know, like I have that level of confidence, you know, I love that you're empowering parents to have that level of confidence to be well versed in kind of the system that they need to be able to go into. And I just want to also add that parents in general tend to be quite experts in their individual child.

Mallory: Absolutely.

Laura: I think most teachers recognized like most teachers and school administrators. You know, if you come in with that sense of, look, I'm an expert on my child, you're the expert in the school setting. How are we going to work together to support my kiddo?

Lori: I have a PhD and I will go into IP. Meetings frequently and I get so much pushback and it's intimidating for me a lot of times being in an I. P. Meeting. So I think for parents like knowing that it is really helpful to have an advocate or somebody with you who understands the law because the law with 504 plans and IP’s is extremely complicated when I'm at a meeting, I can get pushed back, but I know the law quite well and I can say, wait a second. The law doesn't actually say that as a parent, you know, you're not going to maybe know the intricacies of that to be able to push back a little bit. And so I think a lot of parents really assume that the schools know what is correct with that? And a lot of them don't necessarily. We've been talking in particular about ADHD and you know, the Office of Civil Rights really came out and said we're doing a really not good job in the schools of supporting our kids with a PhD.

In fact, there's been so many violations in the past years that we're basically coming out with guidelines for schools and saying you need to follow these guidelines because there is so much discrimination going on. Our kids with ADHD and essentially, you know, if your child has a diagnosis, you know, you should be advocating for at the very least a 504 plan because if your child has a diagnosis, it's, you know, you get that diagnosis because it's impacting them to a significant degree in their life. And so typically they need those accommodations to level the playing field so that they're able to access the curriculum and do things at the same level as their peers. So it's really important for parents to know that, I guess.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. Can you just give us a little short little definition of a five or four plan or an IEP. Can you just for people who are listening and I'm going to have to start advocating.

Lori: Yes, for sure. So with a 504 plan, if your child has a diagnosis, again, it's really a plan to say, here are some accommodations that will level the playing field. You're not changing the curriculum, you're not changing their instruction, you might be doing things like giving them fidgets at the desk that they can kind of occupy themselves giving them extra time on a test if they get distracted or taking a test in a quiet room.

If they get really distracted in a large setting where they get anxious during testing. So again you're not changing the actual work that they're doing, they're getting the same level of work. Whereas for an IEP where really when we look at an IEP we're looking at does this child need intensive instruction in a particular area to really make adequate progress? And this is really important. It doesn't have to be just academic.

We have plenty of kids who have ADHD or autism who do well academically. But their challenges are with speech or social communication or social skills or behaviors. Their behaviors are so significant that they can't access the curriculum or the instruction they might need intensive instruction in those areas to really make progress. So it doesn't just have to be academic. Your child can be doing well academically but still need an IEP. And still need instruction in those areas and the IEP.

Again goals has a little bit more weight I guess it doesn't have to be. But typically in the schools you have meetings annually where you're going over did they meet their goals? Those types of things. Whereas the 504 plan maybe you know isn't taken as seriously in the schools it should be. But it isn't based on my experience working in the schools and, and how they have that set up.

Katie: So I think it's important for parents to know that a 504 plan and IEP both hold the same legal weight. The school is legally obligated once this document is created and signed and agreed upon by everyone there legally obligated to implement it. But like Lori said sometimes 504 plans aren't seen as so important. But they both come from federal law, they both hold legal weight. One is not, you know, more valid than the other. They're both important in the school has to follow them.

Laura: Thank you for that clarification. You know, it's Lori you mentioned having fidgets on a 504 plan and I know so many families who are in schools whose teachers have made a blanket ban on all fidgets and that really like that means that probably for some of those kids if they had a five or four plan that, that would be being violated.

Lori: It would be. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I have said this before. I do testing with lots of kids with HD and I've tried fidgets and a lot of times it is very distracting but that doesn't mean that all of them are distracting. And it doesn't mean that there aren't you know sometimes it's putting Velcro under their desk or having silly putty or something like that.

That maybe isn't distracting for other students or them where it's not like a toy but it gives them that ability to get out some of that, those fidgety behaviors or things like that, that they can't control, you know, they really can't control. Their body is kind of moving and going and they don't have the ability to regulate that and they need some help with that. So making blanket statements is probably not appropriate.

But I think most parents think, oh, the teachers should know that and they don't like, teachers don't necessarily get a lot of training in ADHD or five or four plans or things like that. So we do have to do our part and kind of educating and if we, as parents don't know those things getting an advocate to help with those meetings. That does understand the law is really helpful.

Laura: I used to do that in grad school. How would people find someone to come and be an advocate for you in this?

Mallory: Yeah, I think doing a google search for an educational advocate in your area. So I think that can be helpful or talking to other parents. Like if you can get in a Facebook group in your area that's, you know, asking parents within that group like have you had issues at a meeting? Did you use somebody and getting recommendations that way? Most people can be helpful.

Laura: I would imagine your child's other service providers might also be plugged into those networks. Like if your child is you're seeing a slip.

Mallory: Definitely. Yeah. And I think if you're in a rural area again, just remember that especially in this last year with Covid like we can do zoom meetings like that's really easy to do. And I, most of the IEP meetings I attend via a phone conference or zoom, I'm not there in person. So you know, it's really easy to have somebody who's maybe, you know, you have more options for instance in the greater phoenix area, but you might be in Yuma and there's not a lot of people you can still have them assist you with that meaning.

Laura: Awesome. Thank you for that. Okay, so I have one last question for the three of you if there's one thing you wanted families to know as they wrap up listening to this episode about, you know, if they've got a child who's struggling who has some challenging behaviors that might or might not be related to ADHD. But what is it that you really want families and parents to know about their kid about themselves? I'd love to hear that it's not your fault and the same thing.

Lori: Yeah. It's not your fault. And I know that there can be a lot of hesitation about do I want to go down the route of getting a diagnosis when you're starting to see those things and I think there's many advantages to that and I've not once had a family come to me for an evaluation and said I regret this experience. Almost every single person just feels this sense of relief of, okay, now I know what this is now.

I know the science based information to help with this is and I have a direction and a plan and now my child even potentially knows what this is so that they cannot feel like they're stupid and behind their peers and not as good as their peers that they, their brain works differently and so that they can celebrate the awesome ways that they are different.

Their peers aren't just was talking to a kid recently and had autism and we were able to talk about all the amazing things that he could do that his other friends couldn't do because he had autism, how observant he is with his environment and his amazing, intense interests and math and things like that, that really make him unique. It can be so helpful and empowering to families and really set your child up for success in the future with getting interventions that we know are really helpful for that particular diagnosis.

Katie: I think something else that I would want parents to hear is just, you know, as Lori said and Mallory to it's not your fault, but also that you're not alone. I think that for parents who are raising exceptional kids, I was speaking to a mom yesterday and she told me, you know, my kids are just extra and their extra energetic and their extra happy and they're extra athletic, but they can also be extra difficult at times and when you look at other people and you look around a restaurant or see other kids just holding their parents hand nicely in the parking lot.

It can feel really discouraging and really isolating like I'm the only one that struggles with this and we know that that's not true because we deal in a different population right? And so in our jobs were seeing families all the time that are struggling but looking for those resources connecting through social media is such a great way to do it.

But understanding like this is a normal, I put that in quotes experience for a lot of families actually that go through this and you're certainly not alone and think that almost all of us have fears and concerns about our children at times that can be really validating to be around other people who are going through something similar.

Laura: Absolutely Mallory, is there anything to add?

Mallory: I think they said it great and like you said earlier, Laura parents are the expert on their child and they really are the best person to help their child and they have the power and so letting parents know and empowering them with the knowledge that they truly are the expert and that they can help their child I think is one of the, one of the most important takeaways. I hope parents get from that.

Laura: That's beautiful. I just want to add as a person who has a challenging kid who's highly anxious and her anxiety manifests and she has some sensory issues too. They manifest in some really challenging behaviors. I waited way too long to get help and support because I had this idea in my head that I'm supposed to know, I'm the expert, I'm supposed to know how to do all of this, I'm supposed to know how to handle it.

But it's different when you're when it's your child. And so yes, I just want to echo, you're not alone in this, it is not your fault and there's nothing wrong with needing support. And that doesn't mean you failed in any way and your kids are lucky to have you. I mean, you're going to be their greatest partner in figuring out what it means to live with these things because many of these things are going to be kind of walk alongside your kids for the rest of their lives and so how powerful is it to have tools that they're learning now as kids, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you all so much for being here with me. I hope everybody will go and follow the Childhood Collective on Instagram. Their content is amazing. And I know you have a course on ADHD. Right, why don't you tell us a little bit about that course. So people can go and check it out and get support if they need it.

Lori: Yeah, we have an online course. It's a video based course for parents who have kids with ADHD between the ages of four and 11, 4 and 12. And again, our course is really trying to give parents like simple science backed information and kind of a step by step process of how to support their kids at home, because we just kind of see parents really struggling with knowing what to do.

And again, our point is to say you don't need to be an ADHD expert, you don't need to have a PhD in child psychology to do this. You really don't do a lot of this stuff we weren't even trained in in schools. And so we're kind of, yeah, we're kind of packaging this stuff that is the most important stuff that you need to know to really support your child and really help them to grow and to be independent. I mean, that's really what we want for our kids. How do we find joy and parenting? How do we grow them into the amazing kids that we know that they can be. So, that's what we want to do with our course. So you can check that out at the thechildhoodcollective.com

Laura: I hope that they do. That sounds like an amazing resource. Probably is helping so many families. Thank you for being here.

Lori: Thank you so much for having us on.

Katie: Yes, thank you so much. And we love your content to so this is really fun to get to sit down and just telling you,

Laura: Oh, I had a lot of fun too. I think we could probably geek out about this stuff forever,

Mallory: I know, probably.

Okay, so thanks for listening today. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and if it was helpful, leave me a review. That really helps others find the podcast and join us in this really important work of creating a parenthood that we don't have to escape from and creating a childhood for our kids that they don't have to recover from.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out and definitely go follow me on Instagram @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes, look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family and plus, I share a lot of other really great resources there too.

October 19, 2021

Episode 81: Social Justice Parenting with Traci Baxley

October 19, 2021/ Laura Froyen

I truly believe, from the bottom of my heart, that one of the most effective ways we as parents can change the world is through our children and our parenting. That conscious, respectful parenting is in itself a radical act of activism in a world that is unjust. And that anti-racist activism is an integral part of this work that we are all doing as we raise our kids differently than how we were parented. I know that you too seek to raise a generation of children who know who they are and what matters to them, who deeply understand justice and seek it in all their spaces, who are fierce advocates not only for themselves but for others, who are more proactive in their kindness, and who intercedes when harm is done.

This is why I'm so thrilled to have Dr. Traci Baxley of Social Justice Parenting as a guest for this week's episode on The Balanced Parent Podcast. She is a professor, consultant, parenting coach, speaker, mother to five children, and the author of a new book that comes out TODAY: Social Justice Parenting. As an educator for over 30 years with degrees in child development, elementary education, and curriculum and instruction, she specializes in diversity and inclusion, anti-bias curriculum, and social justice education.

Here is an overview of what we talked about:

Social Justice Parenting
Shifting from fear to radical love
The difference between being a good person and being pro-justice
Tips on raising kids to know they have power and privilege & how to use it.

To learn more, follow Dr. Traci on social media and visit her website:
Website: socialjusticeparenting.com/home
Instagram: www.instagram.com/socialjusticeparenting
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/tracibaxley

Dr. Traci's book, SOCIAL JUSTICE PARENTING: How to Raise Compassionate, Anti-Racist, Justice-Minded Kids in an Unjust World launches today! This book tackles not only the basics of respectful, connected, empathic parenting, but also what a social justice approach to parenting looks like and what it requires of us (because they are wrapped up in one another!). It also digs deep into specific, practical applications, giving you concrete parenting tools to put the philosophy into practice with your kids immediately!.

GRAB YOUR COPY HERE!

Hello, I'm Dr. Laura Froyen and this is The Balanced Parent Podcast where overwhelmed, stressed out and disconnected parents go to find tools, mindset shifts, and practices to help them stop yelling at the people they love and start connecting on a deeper level. All delivered with heaping doses of grace and compassion. Join me in conversations that will help you get clear on your goals and values and start showing up in your parenting, your relationships, your life with openhearted authenticity and balance. Let's go!

Laura: Hello Everybody, this is Dr. Laura Froyen and on this week's episode of The Balance Parent Podcast we are going to be talking about parenting for social justice and social change and I'm really excited to have my guest who has written a beautiful book on this topic, Dr. Traci Baxley of Social Justice Parenting, amazing account on Instagram and a beautiful philosophy. So Traci, welcome to the show, I'm so excited to have you. Will you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Traci: Yes. Hi Laura, I'm happy to be here. I am Traci Baxley and I am, I guess my number one job is being a mother of five and I am also a professor and consulting and coach and I work with families around issues of race, racism, raising human beings who are more compassionate, more kind and who want to make the change changers agents in the world.

Laura: Yeah, I love that. It's I think that it's one of the beautiful things I have always loved about your account that as I've been reading your book. It's a beautiful mission to be thinking about how can we not only raise kids who love themselves who feel as if they belong in this world and in our family but then also go out and create that sense of kindness and belonging out in the world. It's beautiful.

Traci: Yeah, thank you. That's the ultimate goal, right? We raise kids in our homes with their own values and our own core values and our ways of being inside the home. But we also have to be conscious that those are the things that they walk out of our homes with and those are the things that they take with them when they, when they leave us. And so how do we start creating this change in our homes so that they create these same changes in their communities and you know, eventually in the world?

Laura: Yeah. Okay, so when we think about the name of your Instagram account and the book is Social Justice Parenting, what does that mean to you?

Traci: I think it's just a way that we intentionally kind of show up in our parenting role that's purposeful and that it really is about raising children who I say care and care deeply who love radically, who can show up themselves and others raising kids who are consciously more kind and more compassionate and who want to do good in the world. I think the more that we are intentionally working on these things in our homes, the more that these things become natural and normalize for our kids as they enter into the more public spaces.

Laura: Absolutely. And why is this so important? Why should we take this on as like an intentional value as parents?

Traci: I think we're seeing a world right now so divided almost more than ever. And I think as we see injustices around us, as we see that we can't find middle ground, I think now more than ever we need to be raising children who learn how to compromise right and, and to show up for others because I'm really afraid about the direction that we're going in as a country, as a nation.

And if we don't start to kind of write this train a little bit through the way we're raising our children, the next generation won't really have a chance to learn what it means to give of yourself right? To be a little bit selfless, to see others as our own in order to really be able to see the humanness and all of us, in order to be able to make the changes that we need in the world.

And I know in a selfish way, I look at that Laura, I need your kids to know who my kids are, right? So we need to think about the way we raised our children as a part of a village, a human village that raising and those values start in our own homes for them to be able to do that in the world.

Laura: It starts early, very young, right? I had a listener reach out to me when she found out that I was interviewing you and asked you know, so she's got little ones infants and toddlers, two year olds and she's just wondering, okay, where do I start with this? Where do I like beyond getting your book, which everybody listening should go do that right now. Hopefully, buy it from an independently owned bookseller. But if Amazon is what you got to go get it there. But what is it that we can do? And we've got really young children like what are the first stepping stones?

Traci: I think the very first thing you do is you have to be honest with yourself about your own feelings, right? So there's a lot of self-reflection that needs to happen about your own childhood about your own biases about your own experiences and being able to unpack those honestly in order to be more intentional about the way you show up with your kids. So it really starts before you even really interact with your kids around things.

Laura: Just like anything else was conscious parenting, right? It always starts with us.

Traci: And I think the bottom line is if we think about the development of kids and there's been studies that show kids as early as six months really recognize facial features and they gravitate to people who look like them. And then by the time they are in preschool they have developed that in-group bias. Right? So that they think that the people who look like them are more important are better friends.

Those are the ones they want to be around. And then by the time they hit early grade school they recognize that with color, with race comes power and privilege. And even kids of color recognize that white children have more power and privilege. So we're talking, if they're already toddlers, if they're already preschoolers, they already have ideas about race um long before we may even have those conversations.

Laura: That's why it's so critical right that we start proactively and very early allowing the discussion of differences of noticing. That's very natural for a child and then starting to have those conversations. One thing I love about your book is that you have this whole section of conversation starters which I just love, especially parents like me who are white and who grew up not having those conversations.

I grew up in a home where we were actively discouraged from having those conversations because that was the colorblind ideology was the thing in the 80s and 90s. I mean I think with good intentions, my parents had good intentions. They really you know, my mom grew up in a home that there was lots of active racism and she was attempting to counter that with us and unknowingly send other messages. I love that you're giving us the words that we might not know how to start. So I really appreciate that. Are there other things that we can be doing with our kiddos?

Traci: I just want to touch on something.

Laura: Okay please do.

Traci: For parents who grew up in the same way because a lot of us did right? But there's a lot of messaging in that silence.

Laura: Oh! so much. Yes, so much.

Traci: You're walking away with ideas whether you say something or not and I always say don't you want them to have your ideas about what race is and not media, not other family members, not their friends. And so I think probably the worst way of showing up in this space is not saying anything at all. There's a study that a teacher, I think it was northwestern did the study where a teacher was reading a book because we all say, okay, read books is a great place to start and it is a great place to start.

But not if you're just reading the words on the page, you really have to unpack what's going on. Point out skin color talk about what that means. And the study basically had a teacher reading the story and to half of the one group of kids, she read it and say we don't see color, right? We're all the same. You know, we love each other. And then the other half of she actually said race. These kids are black. These kids are agent race is a big deal in our country. We have to really unpack what that means. We have to have conversations around it.

We love differences. But she actually used the word race and then the kids had a kind of like a post-test on their ideas and their biases and the studies show that the kids who actually had the real words about race were more able to identify biases later. So our kids don't recognize this vague language that we often use and we really have to be really concrete, age-appropriate. Yes, but very concrete in the way we talk to our kids about race early.

Laura: Thank you for sharing that study with us. I think it's so important to bring the research into this piece of things. What I love too about your book is it invites that self-reflection of, you know, when we are leaning towards the vague language, when it feels more comfortable to go to that vague language, that that is a moment that is inviting self-reflection.

What is it that makes so uncomfortable? For example, for white parents to say that child is black, that's a black child and to use it with a capital B like, what is it that makes us that's anti-blackness showing up in our bodies in our frame of reference that somewhere along the line, we got the idea that we can't say that and, and that's just the reality of it. And I love too that you invite the knowing better and doing better and the not marinating shame and guilt figuring out acknowledging it, moving on doing better.

Traci: Thank you for bringing those up that we can't allow the way our bodies feel to dictate how we are short for our kids. Like we even have to talk about it. I feel a little bit scared to talk about this topic because it wasn't talked to me. Grandma and grandpa didn't talk to me about it. You talk to me about it, right? But I want to do better and do differently because I wanted to have a conversation where you're not afraid to talk about it.

So a lot of times as parents, right? We, our own experiences, our own anxieties. We project that onto our kids call that the fear-based parenting are afraid to allow our kids to think and to feel and to have discussions around. And we just kind of shut off their natural curiosities of asking questions, trying to figure out the world around them. And then we teach them that is not okay to talk about it. We can't talk about race when we're afraid to have those same conversations and then we perpetuate the same.

Laura: Mm-hmm. And we're just passing it down the line. You said something there, that reminded me of another piece that I love in your book that I wanted to pull out. Because it is critical in you know, any way we're looking at parenting shifting from fear to radical love. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that piece and why you have it so front and center in your book?

Traci: Yeah, I think a lot of us, especially when it comes to heart topics like this, we live in this idea of fear And I think the fear is because you know, it may be changes hard, right? talking about something that makes us uncomfortable in general. It's hard to have conversations with our children. We want to protect them. We want to keep them safe. And part of that is because of the fear of what's out there. Right? Talk about this idea of being able to have conversations about what's going on beyond your front door or your gated communities because we want to keep them from the truth.

And so we keep them in this bubble, we are really denying them opportunities to make choices to problem solve, to grow as human beings, to work on being more compassionate and kind when people are different. And so this protection or anxiety that we feel is really keeping them from growing and being good people. And so I really believe in this power of showing up with radical log, which just means really the bottom line is I'm not parenting for my own kid.

Laura: Yeah.

Traci: I am parenting from a space that all kids belong to me in some way and it is my responsibility to teach love and my own children so that love radiates to everybody else outside of my home.

Laura: I love that in fact that piece of part of social justice, parenting is not just considering how we're showing up for our children, but how you're showing up for all children.

Traci: Yeah, because we need each other, right?

Laura: We do, we're all in this together.

Traci: Absolutely. And if we don't start making those small changes in our homes, our kids really believe that we're going to get more of the same.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. You said something just before about raising kids who are good people and I was kind of curious about if you can talk a little bit about what's the difference between being a good person, which most of us are, and being pro-justice.

Traci: We raised good people, we raised them to be kind and to do no harm, right? We raised pro-justice children, we are raising them to intercede when harm is being done. So it's more active, right? Kind, it's great raising good kids is great, but we want to raise kids who are more proactive in their kindness so that they are really seeing things from other perspectives that they're really wanting to be up to standards and that they see kind deeds and empowering and standing with others as something that's normal and that's what we do.

Laura: There is a difference and I think that there's part of this that is modeling and then also actively teaching our kids what to do, like how to intercede in a way that is safe because most of my friends who are folks of color and who are black have memories of being in school and having microaggressions or actually big racist aggressions perpetuated in school and there were bystanders, there were kids around them.

I think that for folks like me who have white kids, I want to actively teach them young how to intercede and stand up for their friends and for what's wrong. Do you have any tips for those of us who are in that position who really want to raise those activists who raise kids who know like that they have power and privilege and that they can use it even when they're quite young?

Traci: Let me tell you a story that's in the book that came to mind when you when we talked when you said that. So my girlfriend and I were the only two blacks. We were in this eight-week boot camp on one summer before we had kids and we worked out, he did three times a day workout through that time together with this group of people. We got close like a little family. Like even on the weekends we'd go to, it was an ex-marine who ran the boot camp. We would go to his house for happy hour and hors d'oeuvres.

But it was like a little bit of a family at that point. And the last day of the boot camp as we were like during our last-minute stretches he asked his children to go pick up all of the equipment And the girl who probably was like 10 or 11 went right away and start picking up all the equipment where the sun kind of got up, slowly dragging his feet, his body kind of hunched over and the girl turned around to her brother and said stop being lazy or stop walking like her and she said the n word. In that moment of course silence, everybody's wide-eyed looking at each other and then obviously their eyes went to my girlfriend and I were the only two black people in that group.

And when I look back on that moment, of course, I unpacked it with the kids and with the instructor. But in that moment, I needed an ally, right? I needed somebody who raised somebody to say, hey, that's not right or I don't think that's appropriate or I stand with you, or I'm sorry that happened to you. I would never allow that to happen to you or get or something, but nobody said anything because of that fear. And so this idea of what you're saying is for us to raise the next generation who won't be those people, you will learn to stand in solidarity with an empowerment with people who are being marginalized in some ways.

And I think the best way that we can start doing that at home is to literally role play it. So you have these scenarios, maybe it's a Friday night thing, right? We're having movie night pizza and then we're gonna pull sticks from a jar to role-play different events that could happen and actually having kids have the words to say when things happen because in that moment we get afraid and we're not, we don't know what to say.

But if they practiced this thing at home, it becomes second nature that this is what I do. This is what I say, this is how I show up. So don't be afraid to have some of these moments at home. That creates maybe some uncomfortableness at home. So that when they're out in the world, it gives them a little bit more power a little bit more strength to be able to stand up and have these conversations in the moment when they're happening outside of your home.

Laura: So beautifully put Traci, thank you so much for sharing that story so openly to illustrate how powerful it is to raise people to be allies. The role-playing works and help when my daughter who's nine now five hurt on the playground one day a little boy in her class told two of her friends, one who was Indian and when who was Asian and that he didn't like them because they had brown skin and she knew exactly what to say because we practiced it at home.

Like literally practice those things and so she stood in front of them said it's not okay to say that. It's not okay to like people based on the color of their skin or not like people go away and then comforted her friends and then went and got a teacher, you know, so I was super proud of it, you know, but it's and that's not like a cookie. Like we're not asking for, they get it. I think we can trust kids to get this early young, you know, she was only five, you know, so, but they need practice. You know, they need the skill, it's not something they learned overnight, you know.

Traci: By nature, they want to help, they ask the questions, I want to know what the problem is. I want to know how I can help. And when we don't allow them opportunities, when we're telling them to be quiet or shushed or we don't talk about those things. They then don't start trusting their instincts. And so we don't want to be the ones to squash that in our kids. These little moments are really defining moments for who our kids can become when you enter the world.

Laura: Okay. So I feel like we hit some of these pieces. I'm kind of curious about how folks learn more from you beyond this book. I know that you do consulting. Do you teach classes? Are there opportunities to kind of dive deeper and working with you?

Traci: Yeah, I have two courses that are out now. One is a long, longer-term course because it's not the book, but it's a lot of things from the book and extension of the book. I would say it is.

Laura: Yeah.

Traci: And then I have one quick like how to talk to your kids about race. So it's a smaller quicker course. And the other one is a little bit more in-depth with a lot of worksheets and a lot of work that you should be. And I do have one on one clients that I work with parents. And also I have group clients. So there's a group of moms who want to come around a certain topic or issue our parenting. Then I do that as well. Also too, You know, there's a lot of nonprofits and corporations that are doing a lot of DIY work, that's all part of my belonging umbrella. So I do a lot of corporate work as well.

Laura: Beautiful.

Traci: So I just want to work with anybody who wants to work in the space of belonging and being more compassionate, being more allowing people to show up as themselves. It's really important.

Laura: So important. I feel like your book is this kind of essential guide to just parenting consciously and respectfully. Like we all want to raise good people, people who stand up for its right, who knows what's in their heart, who knows how to trust themselves and move out into the world to create a world that is better.

You know, one thing that we didn't get to talk about entirely was this idea that, you know, I really believe that one of the most powerful ways that we as parents can impact the world is through our kids and through our parenting and I so appreciate that call that your book brings us to kind of look at that broader kind of, broadening our perspective, broadening our view of, of what we do as parents.

Traci: Yeah. And what our past experience has taught us and how we're showing up and modeling these things for our children every day and I'm a big, big believer in a family, actively creating core values together because those core values when you're out of line, you can always bring people back to the core values when I'm behaving in a way that doesn't align with your values in my house.

I want my children to call me on it because if we are creating a space where belonging and safety is important, where you have each other's backs like you're your brother's keeper, your sister's keeper is one of our core values and I'm not doing that in a way. You need to be able to call me on it for us to come back in alignment. And so I think that is kind of like the foundation for creating a family dynamic where we can see and do for others.

Laura: Yeah, where we can as a team, hold each other accountable and push our family as a group forward.

Traci: Absolutely.

Laura: Oh, that's so beautiful. Traci, Thank you so much for this conversation and for the gift of your work that you put out into this world. I hope that everybody listening goes and gets a copy of your book. I really appreciate your time and energy that you shared with us today so much.

Traci: Thank you so much, Laura, I really appreciate it being here and being a part of your audience as well.
Laura: The honor is all mine. I was so giddy to get to talk to you today, so I really, really appreciate it.

Traci: Thank you.

And if you're listening, grab a screenshot and tag me on Instagram so that I can give you a shout out um, and definitely go follow me on Instagram. I'm @laurafroyenphd. That's where you can get behind the scenes. Look at what balanced, conscious parenting looks like in action with my family, and plus I share a lot of other, really great resources there too.

Laura Froyen, PhD

Laura Froyen, PhD

Balanced Parent Podcast

Laura Froyen, PhD

Welcome to the home of The Balanced Parent Podcast!

Episode 100: Reconnecting to Play for Our Own Wellbeing with Amanda Evans

Episode 99: Mindful Tech Use for Parents and Kids with Sophie Brickman

Episode 98: How to Actually Enjoy Playing with Your Kids

Episode 97: Becoming Unbusy with Monica Berg

Episode 96: Understanding Your Child's Personality for Ease in Parenting With Sandra Etherington

Episode 95: Honoring Your Unique Child with Ryan Haddon

Episode 94: Racial & Educational Equity & Advocacy with Sonia Lewis

Episode 93: How to Help Your Child Have a Healthy Relationship with Food with Jennifer Anderson

Episode 92: How to Use Logical Consequences with Wendy Snyder

Episode 91: How to Find Ease & Flow in Parenting with Kiran Trace

Episode 90: How to Move from Overwhelm to Simplicity with Intention & Grace with Allie Casazza

Episode 89: Defining Beauty for our Children & Ourselves with Abbie Sprünger

Episode 88: A Simple Tool for Checking In with Yourself with Cher Kretz

Episode 87: How to Save your Relationship with Kimberly Beam Holmes

Episode 86: Teaching our Kids to Ask for Help with Nyasha Chikowore

Episode 85: How Trauma Gets Stuck in the Body & What to Do with Irene Lyon

Episode 84: Conscious Parenting Basics with Sidu

Episode 83: How Embracing Creativity Can Help You as a Parent with Sierra Casher

Episode 82: Helping Kids (And Parents) with ADHD with The Childhood Collective

Episode 81: Social Justice Parenting with Traci Baxley